Are Top Level Pool Players Better Today?

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
put the current players back in the past on equal terms and conditions that prevailed then and compare.

or bring them forward and give them time to adapt to modern tables, cloth, balls, and conditioning. i bet it would be close for the very top.

and the slightly lower levels the oldies would win as there was just so many more of them. only counting u.s. as pool wasnt popular worldwide.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
the very top players didnt miss balls. they did lose their turn or miss when the slow cloth or wet balls didnt open up like they do now.

you notice the top straight pool players blast the pack open now. so they have easy run outs.
years back you tried that and you often found they didnt open much and you had no shot. thats why they played precise position and kicked out a few at a time. if you stormed into the pack too many times you got stuck there.
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
is it really a paywall or just the fact not many people will have the time or willing to dedicate the time and all the sacrifices it entails to achieve that standard of the game?

Training was an issue. How many players have quality instruction?

There are not enough billiard Academies for the youth. Its mostly get beat by old people until you are ready.

That is not always fun for young people.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I tend to agree with you on the 'boring robots' comment. Another thing is today's players take WAY too long to shoot when there's no shot clock in place. I attempted to watch some of the Scottish Open and had to turn it off, akin to watching paint dry! Last night I watched a match between Varner and Matlock and there's no question that those players played at a much faster clip than the players of today. Nine ball with today's player is BORING sans shot clock.
You don't suppose that may be because of 4" - 4 1/2" pockets, do you? 5" and 5 1/4" pockets are a thing of the past. When I watch tournaments from the 80's and early 90's on big pocket tables it is surprising to me how often pro's miss.

I think todays players a far better than days gone by. Its similar to auto racing, at 17 years a kid has no chance of ever getting paid to drive if he hasn't started racing at an age of 5-7 years old. Drivers in F1 and NASCAR typically didnt even get there first ride until they were in their mid 20's, today a minimum age of 18 has to be instituted because these kids are ready to race professionally at 16 and 17 years old. We are starting to see the same thing in pool.
 
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trob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
the very top players didnt miss balls. they did lose their turn or miss when the slow cloth or wet balls didnt open up like they do now.

you notice the top straight pool players blast the pack open now. so they have easy run outs.
years back you tried that and you often found they didnt open much and you had no shot. thats why they played precise position and kicked out a few at a time. if you stormed into the pack too many times you got stuck there.
There’s a lot to be said for the stroke you needed on slower cloth. I know I play on fast table 90% of the time but when I run into a slow valley and suddenly you can’t just finesse the ball around the table it changes the way you play for sure
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You don't suppose that may be because of 4" - 4 1/2" pockets, do you?

i don't think so. watching the derby, eurotours and other events with fairly generous pockets, it's the same slow snails being slow and conversely the same players being fast on tighter pockets.

my theory is, you learn quite early on what is a winning way. many slow players didn't start out slow, they discovered it was a winning way. not necessarily that they played better by walking around the table four times and getting up and down off the shot three times before doing their half minute practice stroke routine, but that they win more matches that way. that it cools down / annoys your opposition can be a factor for that success.

i drew a fidgety french player some year ago in a big pocket tourney, around 700-730 fargo, and he had made a habit of taking long time on easy shots. took two bathroom breaks in a race to 8. at one point he got off the shot, unlaced and took off his shoes, shot the shot and put his shoes back on. apparently he needed to shoot that shot without shoes (no dress code so i couldn't call him out on it). excessive slow play is just gamesmanship, whether it's a learned "winning way" or conscious time sharking
 

justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
Now that WPA sanctioning is out the window,

it is time for all the real gamblers to start showing.

There is no way that older players loss skill as they aged.

What is Pool Regulation Authority? World 14.1 posted an editorial about it on FB.

Matchroom is doing everything the WPA did but with the consent of local players.

It truly is now a global unified billiard system. For pool players counting languages used might be better than country of origin because of Putin like people. The PI has Tagalog but hundreds of dialects. Filipinos now have a chance to promote their heritage with pool.

Thank Matchroom and Emily Frazer

How many Americans dont know their own heritage? With Matchroom the promotions about local culture can be endless.

Global Mass Pool tourism is about to get real. Counting attendance for events will be record setting yearly typical to Emily's business sense.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I tend to agree with you on the 'boring robots' comment. Another thing is today's players take WAY too long to shoot when there's no shot clock in place. I attempted to watch some of the Scottish Open and had to turn it off, akin to watching paint dry! Last night I watched a match between Varner and Matlock and there's no question that those players played at a much faster clip than the players of today. Nine ball with today's player is BORING sans shot clock.
I literally could have posted these comments word for word.

And we wonder why pool isn't popular as a spectator sport.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I would say the tools of the trade has certainly helped the evolution of the modern player.
I don't exactly know how far back we are going when we use the term "yesteryear".

This I do know: When you got trapped in a lock-up safety years ago, you were pretty much screwed. You either had to kick at it or try to tie up another ball. Nowadays, they pull that little short, skinny stick out and jump over balls. The ability to be a very good kicker is one of the things that put Efren over the top. Some of today's better players aren't so great at kicking, even with all the various "systems" available to them.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't exactly know how far back we are going when we use the term "yesteryear".

This I do know: When you got trapped in a lock-up safety years ago, you were pretty much screwed. You either had to kick at it or try to tie up another ball. Nowadays, they pull that little short, skinny stick out and jump over balls. The ability to be a very good kicker is one of the things that put Efren over the top. Some of today's better players aren't so great at kicking, even with all the various "systems" available to them.
Jump cues are banned in some events and pool rooms.
They should be banned across the board.
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Over 50 posts and no one has discussed the use of drugs between old time players and the new kids on the block.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
the very top players didnt miss balls. they did lose their turn or miss when the slow cloth or wet balls didnt open up like they do now.

you notice the top straight pool players blast the pack open now. so they have easy run outs.
years back you tried that and you often found they didnt open much and you had no shot. thats why they played precise position and kicked out a few at a time. if you stormed into the pack too many times you got stuck there.
I disagree. Even on the looser equipment, there were far more missed break shots from the 1970s to 1990s at top pro level than from 2000 to date, even though the game is played on tighter equipment now.

I do agree with you, however, that the true greats of any era could likely have adapted and been great in any other era.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
stu,

good post, but since the balls open more, it is easier to have better break shots that aren't as tough. so it isn't truly apples to apples on that.

other than just guessing its really hard to quantify the differences in the speed of the players for the different era's.
it does stand to logic that current players having so many more ways to improve should be better.
i dont think that can be contested
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
stu,

good post, but since the balls open more, it is easier to have better break shots that aren't as tough. so it isn't truly apples to apples on that.

other than just guessing its really hard to quantify the differences in the speed of the players for the different era's.
it does stand to logic that current players having so many more ways to improve should be better.
i dont think that can be contested
Yes, well said.
 

book collector

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I didn't read every post, so if it has already been said , sorry, . Back in the mid 1800s when pool became available to the common people, there became several groups of world class players, John Roberts was the head of the one in England, Michaeal Phelan was Irish but became American and was one of the leaders here, Jake Schaeffer being another, The Dion Brothers in Canada, Claudius Berger, Professor Kaarlus,and so on. probably around 100 to 200 top players with these guys at the very top .their sons and a couple of their daughters became the next generation, Phelans son in law Dudley Kavanaugh, replaced him as champion, Jake Shaeffer Jr, John Roberts Jr, The next group was Maurice Daly nephew of Dudley Kavanaugh. Daly saw Willie Hoppe playing pool and told his family he had a great stroke to become a billiard player, he began his training under Daly at his Academie and became the best of that era. They passed the knowledge along in the family when they could, why not, it was a good way to make money back then. A lot of the original group went on to have relatives still playing at the top levels into the 1940s , maybe even longer, I got too sick to do more research. I collected the old books on how to play , there is very little information in them at all , certainly nowhere near Bob Byrnes book, all combined. which was around a 1000 books up until 1970, now everybody and their sister has written a pool book. Some are great, some are trash. but combining all the good ones , there is nothing from stopping someone from becoming the best in the world, if they master what they are taught imo. But before Byrnes book , you either had a natural ability at the game and someone with knowledge helped you become a master, or you banged a million balls before you started getting the feel of the game.
 

Rack’em

Member
I have no doubt what so ever that today's players are the best of all time. But the bad part is that they are not as fun to watch as some of the old players. Many of them are like robots who go through the same ritual for every shot and take a long time to shoot. They'll stare at the table for a while, then lift their cue up in the air to do a few air-strokes, then slowly bend down, wiggle their body back and forth, and take a bunch of practice strokes before finally shooting. And then repeat the process for their next shot. There are exceptions like Josh Filler and Jayson Shaw who are very fun to watch.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You don't suppose that may be because of 4" - 4 1/2" pockets, do you? 5" and 5 1/4" pockets are a thing of the past. When I watch tournaments from the 80's and early 90's on big pocket tables it is surprising to me how often pro's miss.

I think todays players a far better than days gone by. Its similar to auto racing, at 17 years a kid has no chance of ever getting paid to drive if he hasn't started racing at an age of 5-7 years old. Drivers in F1 and NASCAR typically didnt even get there first ride until they were in their mid 20's, today a minimum age of 18 has to be instituted because these kids are ready to race professionally at 16 and 17 years old. We are starting to see the same thing in pool.
yeah. Last tournament I played... I lost to 10 year old kid. He can play! I had to give 4 racks handicap race to 8 but he demolished me..
and i saw facebook post about weekly tournament that was won by 7 year old in Helsinki area :D
 
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