Are Top Level Pool Players Better Today?

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

stu,

good post, but since the balls open more, it is easier to have better break shots that aren't as tough. so it isn't truly apples to apples on that.

other than just guessing its really hard to quantify the differences in the speed of the players for the different era's.
it does stand to logic that current players having so many more ways to improve should be better.
i dont think that can be contested

Don’t forget. The loser used to rack too. Or am I wrong about that?

 

[maha]

oh yea that makes a big difference in how the balls open. and it was much harder to get a tight rack back then.

and the balls were never polished so didn't get that elastic effect.

it is just a different era and different equipment.
like comparing pole vaulters from the past that used steel poles to the fiber ones today. and computers to analyze each step and thing they do.

 

[fastone371]

yeah. Last tournament I played... I lost to 10 year old kid. He can play! I had to give 4 racks handicap race to 8 but he demolished me..
and i saw facebook post about weekly tournament that was won by 7 year old in Helsinki area

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=394104750042887

Wow, its unfricken believable how good some of these young kids play and they can barely see over the rail!!!The year I won our state tournament I had to play a 12 or 13 year old kid, it was one of my toughest matches that tournament.

 

[maha]

if a ten year old is beating you then maybe give his number to those looking for instruction.

 

[Hungarian]

Answer is no. The very cream of the crop players of any era would be top players in any other era. They’d figure it out.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Mosconi and Crane both had high runs of 309 on 10 footers.
Greenleaf had a high run of 289 on a 10 footer.
I've played 14.1 on a 10 footer and those numbers are incredible on that size table.

Agreed, but I’m guessing those 10’ tables had 5” pockets - a huge difference from
4-1/2” or tighter pockets.

 

[measureman]

Agreed, but I’m guessing those 10’ tables had 5” pockets - a huge difference from
4-1/2” or tighter pockets.

I'll bet if someone set up a 5x10 with 5" pockets and offered a big prize for anyone running 300 balls it there would be no winners.

 

[Poolmanis]

if a ten year old is beating you then maybe give his number to those looking for instruction.

I teach him
And he plays all games. He won weekly our club Finnish Kaisa tournaments 4 times already. There is couple very strong players on that too. He came 7th on National Finnish Kaisa ranking event at age of 9... 70+ players and all best players around (luckily i beat him and came 6th haha)

Here is he playing at age of 7...

 

[Hirsty]

As with all sports - the previous generation lifts them up to higher levels. Just look at gymanstics from the 60's compared to today.

 

[shooter_Hans]

Yes and no.

I was far more impressed by pros back then to the pros today. Maybe I was young and impressionable but I remember their shape were sloppy but effective. There were safety battles too.

Today the players are much more robotic. Less creativity but perfect pattern.

I do think one thing contributed to this and its those plastic racks. With these racking mats you are guarantee a ball or two. Thus, changing how the game is played. The game has changed on the local level. I took a long hiatus from pool and started playing serious again. I've notice players no longer break dry. They will make something and the game gets shorten tremendously. The better players will go on without the opponent getting out of his stool especially rack your own.

Tournaments have different rules so I attribute this to the changing of the game. Alternating breaks etc...etc...just so the other guy can shoot. We're still pocketing balls but the amount of balls on a 9 ball game have shorten to 7 or even 6 balls due to the break. The break is the game changer with the new break equipment.

If anyone watches the NBA they will notice the game has changed to the 3 point shot. Since I was gone for a prolong time I've notice pool has also changed.

I do find those sloppy effective shape of the past to be much more enjoyable to watch. It is so pattern-driven today that even the commentators knew exactly what you are going to do.

 

[3kushn]

I think today's players overall are better then those of the past.
I have been watching a lot of the current group on billiards TV and they are a little better.
But they are for the most part boring robots.
I'll take the players of old with personality and emotions,Earl and Siegal come to mind,much more fun to watch.

Sort of agree. I don't watch much pool so don't know much about the robotic part.
Watching 3Cushion and looking at Grand Averages it seems today's players are far better that yesteryear.

That said, we all get brought down or elevated by our competition.

Raymond Ceulemans left the scene for a couple years cause, IMO the stiff competition. Averages of over 2.0 became a normal thing.
Ceulemans won most of his matches with around 1.5 or less average.
Then he came back to win his final World Championship.

This is the best example I can think of that argues against "today's players are better than the old days"

It's my opinion that the old timers would have risen to the occasion if they were alive today.

The mindset of a Champion doesn't allow for defeat.

 

[maha]

yes and 3 cushion tables are so much faster than decades ago. i play okay ( high run of 8 on old tables) and when i had say a 5 rail shot around the table i had to hit it full speed.

now its almost a soft shot on the fast cloth and heated tables.

 

[maha]

quote.. I teach him
And he plays all games. He won weekly our club Finnish Kaisa tournaments 4 times already. There is couple very strong players on that too. He came 7th on National Finnish Kaisa ranking event at age of 9... 70+ players and all best players around (luckily i beat him and came 6th haha)
Here is he playing at age of 7...

yea manis, well get him on that back snooker table and then i bet he cant beat you. :=)

 

[shooter_Hans]

yes and 3 cushion tables are so much faster than decades ago. i play okay ( high run of 8 on old tables) and when i had say a 5 rail shot around the table i had to hit it full speed.

now its almost a soft shot on the fast cloth and heated tables.

Cloth speed or lively rails or both?

 

[baalpeteor]

Something seemingly completely missing from this conversation is the digital revolution that brought about data and information access for all. Back in the day, you had to know a very good player willing to beat you senseless and take all your money. That was the only way to learn, or by watching them from afar.
Nowadays everyone and their grandmother is a pool coach and/or posts videos on YT/social media with their version of tips/tricks. Also because of places like AZ billiards which is part of the digital revolution. Mosconi, James Evans, Greenleaf, Buddy Hall, Fats and many more didn't even have that access in their heydays. Though I heard Fats had the first computer ever built in the world: it was built out in the trunk of his Dusenberg.

 

[maha]

you improve faster with the new information. but that only gets you to a plateau. if you dont have the eye hand coordination to excel you stop at that point.

 

[Keith thompson]

As I continue my pool journey, I often compare it to other sports I have played or been around at a professional level. I was fortunate enough to know some top level professional golfers whose prime years were in the 1960's but were still obviously skilled players into their fifties and sixties and in one case into his seventies. While talking about an elite few, these players would often mention equipment changes, changes in golf course technology, being able to adapt their game to age as reasons they still were able to compete.

I suppose pool tables, balls and cues have all got better over the years and I imagine like top level golf it is really hard to compare the top players of the past versus the top players today.

But to bring it down to a level for an amateur who does more than bash balls and is looking to constantly improve (like myself) what do you guys think are the timeless qualities pool players had back in the day that are still just as relevant, today. And does equipment really make a difference in that way? From reading online, for example, it seems that even elite pool players in the 1950's and 1960's played all their games with a single cue (no break cue) for example. Why did they not need a break cue? Was it just not thought of?

Having learned how to play 9-Ball and Saratoga in recent weeks - a guy I play friendly 8 Ball games with and I got talking and I mentioned The Twilight Zone episode "A Game of Pool" and how they played straight pool. He grew up playing the game and he and I are going to get together and play it very soon. So excited to learn another pool game! Also about that TZ episode, I have a strange connection to it. My mentor in Northern California Horse Racing Owning and Breeding became friends with Jack Klugman (who owned many racehorses) when she was a college intern at Santa Anita. Jack also knew her Dad who worked as a Fire Officer on the set of many TV shows in the era the The Twilight Zone was made.

Thanks,

Craig

There was no good money tournaments back in the day like there is today! Most players just relied on gambling as an income and lived out of a suitcase! That being said none of them had a break cue.

Some players used a heavy house cue to break with as a break cue! But most of the good players just used their playing cue to break with back in the 60’s and 70’s.

As far as rating players from the past against the players of present day is impossible to do. Every generation of players should be admired for their accomplishments and level of play with their existing equipment of their time!

Let’s take Mosconni for instance, I would have played even one hole anytime and probably would have beat him being we were both in our prime. I would have played him even nine also just to see where I stood on a good 4 1/2 by 9 gold crown table. I loved challenges lol

When someone is shooting back at you it doesn’t always go their way! I got to be a world class player by stepping up to the plate and testing the best players around me! That’s what you have to do to get battle hardened! I thrived on it!

Equipment will always improve in all sports and players will adapt to the changes. It does make good conversation comparing green leaf, Lassiter and other greats to players of this generation but the best really can’t be determined.

All those past greats should be remembered for their great play and also today’s best players which will be ancient players one day just like myself.