C.J. Wiley VS Keith McCready - What's The Line?

[Dave714]

CJ I'm impressed that you knew the speed of the players in Waco. Leroy played a ball better than anyone in town. Robert Stewart (snake) played about 1/2 ball better than myself. We all were playing our best and regularly in the 90's.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"Heart" was an earned quality, Keith, and Jose both had this abundantly.

We agree, and you are right, Parica was the only one that I knew would play me "ahead sets".....all the other Filipinos would only play "races," but Parica had the endurance.....Keith, of course, was an endurance player too, when a player didn't have that quality ("heart"in those days) they weren't taken seriously by the biggest gamblers. "Heart" was an earned quality, Keith, and Jose both had this abundantly.

I did intentionally not play Jose, he was "on top of my list," and if anyone knows about the "list," you usually stay away from whomever's on top....or work your way up to them.

Right now, Shane is on top of my list, everyone else is negotiable.

My take on all this: Keith in his prime would beat CJ in his prime on a bar table imo. Only a Matlock or Hall could stand up to Keith on a small table and maybe Billy Johnson/Wade Crane. He was virtually unbeatable at Hard Times in Costa Mesa when he was 18-20 years old. He robbed champion after champion down there, giving weight to many of them. The six ball meant nothing to Keith. He wouldn't miss a ball (hard or easy) for hours on end.

On a 9' table it would have been a slug fest. Keith had this astonishing ability to make super hard shots look easy and difficult run-outs look like child's play. CJ played a more traditional game, running out more like a faster moving Buddy Hall. I think I would pick a circa 1990 CJ over a circa 1980 Keith on the big table, but it would be a battle, even harder than when CJ was pounding on Efren.

Meanwhile the absolute best big table player in the 90's was Parica. NO ONE wanted any part of him.

Let's just say this, in their respective primes both CJ and Keith were at the top of the heap, with only the very best players having any chance with them. Both could go anywhere and play anybody and be the favorite.

 

[ribdoner]

My take on all this: Keith in his prime would beat CJ in his prime on a bar table imo. Only a Matlock or Hall could stand up to Keith on a small table and maybe Billy Johnson/Wade Crane. He was virtually unbeatable at Hard Times in Costa Mesa when he was 18-20 years old. He robbed champion after champion down there, giving weight to many of them. The six ball meant nothing to Keith. He wouldn't miss a ball (hard or easy) for hours on end.

On a 9' table it would have been a slug fest. Keith had this astonishing ability to make super hard shots look easy and difficult run-outs look like child's play. CJ played a more traditional game, running out more like a faster moving Buddy Hall. I think I would pick a circa 1990 CJ over a circa 1980 Keith on the big table, but it would be a battle, even harder than when CJ was pounding on Efren.

Meanwhile the absolute best big table player in the 90's was Parica. NO ONE wanted any part of him.

Let's just say this, in their respective primes both CJ and Keith were at the top of the heap, with only the very best players having any chance with them. Both could go anywhere and play anybody and be the favorite.

EXCELLENT description of Keith's play when he caught lightening...a thrill a minute whether you were betting with or against him

 

[sonny_burnett]

Doubles is joke in pool. I can not believe it is discussed as a serious challenge. It is not even good for spectatorship. What are you thinking? You would watch a mixed doubles game over "Oprah"?

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Nobody cares who somebody "used to be".

Mr. Jesse Cardiff, who became a legend by beating one, but who has found out after his funeral that being the best of anything carries with it a special obligation to keep on proving it. Mr. Fats Brown, on the other hand, having relinquished the champion's mantle, has gone fishing. These are the ground rules in the Twilight Zone.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Keith is 7½ years older at an age where that begins to matter.

Keith has been benched for many years; CJ has been playing quite a bit the last few years.

Just a couple thoughts.

You are correct. A couple more thoughts; A line was suggested. 25-20 with CJ going to 25. Keith said that's a good starting point. CJ hasn't said sh!t.

The game's never going to happen and who would care if it did? Maybe we'll get to watch Ali fight Foreman next.

ONB

 

[CJ Wiley]

play a session on a bar table and they go directly to a big table

Keith hit that "dead ball" as good as anyone I ever saw. He also liked "inside" as much as I do when he was really "dabbing it!" This is why Keith and I could play a session on a bar table and they go directly to a big table without breaking stride....."spinners" can't do that.

EXCELLENT description of Keith's play when he caught lightening...a thrill a minute whether you were betting with or against him

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Keith hit that "dead ball" as good as anyone I ever saw. He also liked "inside" as much as I do when he was really "dabbing it!" This is why Keith and I could play a session on a bar table and they go directly to a big table without breaking stride....."spinners" can't do that.

Wow, one minute later!!! Nice post.

ONB

 

[CJ Wiley]

They are super nice places, much better than anything in Dallas or Ft. Worth.

Leroy and I haven't played, he was offered the "wild 8" at the Clicks one day and declined. He's a great player on an 8' table, I'm not sure how well his 9' game is.

I'm sure we've bet if you've been around that long, maybe at CJ's Billiard Palace? I've also been down to that Clicks and is it Fast Freddies? They are super nice places, much better than anything in Dallas or Ft. Worth.

Happy Holidays Waco

CJ I'm impressed that you knew the speed of the players in Waco. Leroy played a ball better than anyone in town. Robert Stewart (snake) played about 1/2 ball better than myself. We all were playing our best and regularly in the 90's.

 

[Old Nine Baller]

I did intentionally not play Jose, he was "on top of my list," and if anyone knows about the "list," you usually stay away from whomever's on top....or work your way up to them.

Right now, Shane is on top of my list, everyone else is negotiable.

You never make the grade at anything by playing it safe.

Just get up and play already, it won't hurt that much. You seem to be the rootin' tootin' straight-shootinest player who posts here. Get it on already.

ONB

 

[one stroke]

Keith hit that "dead ball" as good as anyone I ever saw. He also liked "inside" as much as I do when he was really "dabbing it!" This is why Keith and I could play a session on a bar table and they go directly to a big table without breaking stride....."spinners" can't do that.

Your losing me here first you say Eferan is a inside player now Kieth ,, both of them spin it with the best of them ,, and Jay said Jose was the best in his day and he's right there with them ,, Splain ,,,,,,


1

 

[Dave714]

You came through Clicks in 95'ish promoting something with your wife. Cathey Jo had you talk to the women tourn players I remember .Yeah we've conversed at CJ's and Rusty's a few times. Waco has always been a 8' town and Leroy would have needed much more than the 8 back when everyone hit'em better.

 

[Dave714]

Noel Torres plays in your area I believe. He's a friend from the 90's Waco area. I played a 1/2 ball better than him back then. I believe he plays quite a bit these days I hear. Could be a different outcome these days. He, Leroy, Snake and I all come up together.

 

[CJ Wiley]

We held our tournaments at the same time and the doors were in the thousands

95 was the year we were preparing to play the ESPN even with the WPBA. Back when we were filling spectator seats the PBTA was playing with the WPBA.

We held our tournaments at the same time and the doors were in the thousands. Now it's unusual to see more than 15 fans at a men's tournament, although the women still get a few hundred.

You came through Clicks in 95'ish promoting something with your wife. Cathey Jo had you talk to the women tourn players I remember .Yeah we've conversed at CJ's and Rusty's a few times. Waco has always been a 8' town and Leroy would have needed much more than the 8 back when everyone hit'em better.

 

[lost]

95 was the year we were preparing to play the ESPN even with the WPBA. Back when we were filling spectator seats the PBTA was playing with the WPBA.

We held our tournaments at the same time and the doors were in the thousands. Now it's unusual to see more than 15 fans at a men's tournament, although the women still get a few hundred.

Really? What venue was that? Wouldn't have been half time at a NBA game was it? J/K ;-)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Millions of people saw these tournament matches

Every tournament we did together had gates over a thousand, especially the US OPEN. Jay Helfert had several events with thousands - I played Francisco Bustamante a match at the Burbank Hilton in front of over 500 people.

Even the TV events I did at CJ's Billiard Palace were over a thousand (last one did over $12k at the door), and this was used to promote the event and pay for the broadcast/s.

In 1996 the WPBA and the PCA both sanctioned the ESPN World Open (the WPA sent their players as well) and it was a success. Millions of people saw these tournament matches all over the ESPN TV Universe.

Men and Women's events work synergistically together, maybe it's time to try again.

Really? What venue was that? Wouldn't have been half time at a NBA game was it? J/K ;-)

 

[one stroke]

Every tournament we did together had gates over a thousand, especially the US OPEN. Jay Helfert had several events with thousands - I played Francisco Bustamante a match at the Burbank Hilton in front of over 500 people.

Even the TV events I did at CJ's Billiard Palace were over a thousand (last one did over $12k at the door), and this was used to promote the event and pay for the broadcast/s.

In 1996 the WPBA and the PCA both sanctioned the ESPN World Open (the WPA sent their players as well) and it was a success. Millions of people saw these tournament matches all over the ESPN TV Universe.

Men and Women's events work synergistically together, maybe it's time to try again.[/QUOTE

Wow how many did the place seat , what was it free taco day. , Millions of viewers ove what a month 3 , 6 a year ,
If pool ever got a thing close to a million views a pop ,, we would see pool on TV everyday
1

 

[lost]

Wow how many did the place seat , what was it free taco day. , Millions of viewers ove what a month 3 , 6 a year ,
If pool ever got a thing close to a million views a pop ,, we would see pool on TV everyday
1[/QUOTE]

ESPN in those days was filling their programming schedule with a lot of cheap to produce shows and anything on got viewers. Eventually they moved on of course. Even the few bowling shows (if they are even on ESPN anymore) are aired opposite the NFL games...in other words....dead time period.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Pool on ESPN wasn't cancelled, it just wasn't pursued

We averaged a "1" Rating which was over a million viewers/households. ESPN profited millions of dollars from those broadcasts......and still play them to this day.

Pool on ESPN wasn't cancelled, it just wasn't pursued after the year 2000.

Every tournament we did together had gates over a thousand, especially the US OPEN. Jay Helfert had several events with thousands - I played Francisco Bustamante a match at the Burbank Hilton in front of over 500 people.

Even the TV events I did at CJ's Billiard Palace were over a thousand (last one did over $12k at the door), and this was used to promote the event and pay for the broadcast/s.

In 1996 the WPBA and the PCA both sanctioned the ESPN World Open (the WPA sent their players as well) and it was a success. Millions of people saw these tournament matches all over the ESPN TV Universe.

Men and Women's events work synergistically together, maybe it's time to try again.[/QUOTE

Wow how many did the place seat , what was it free taco day. , Millions of viewers ove what a month 3 , 6 a year ,
If pool ever got a thing close to a million views a pop ,, we would see pool on TV everyday
1

 

[CJ Wiley]

Dr Dave Vs Keith "The Earthquake" McCready

What's the line between Keith and Dr. Dave?

Since this seems to be all hypothetical, what would Dr. Dave need to play Keith McCready "old school 9 Ball?"

With all the talk of hustling, gambling, road players, reality shows, etc., what is the "line" if there is a match of CJ playing Keith in a long race of 2-foul, old-school 9-ball?

Both of them are still capable of hitting the balls rather smartly, given enough notice and practice.

I'd be interested in hearing who people think may take home the cheese if this could be set up and played out.

Aloha.