"Center Ball" - Magic or Myth?

[Eddie May]

Cj?

Which of CJ's DVD's explain TOI and the three pocket system the fullest.

Thanks....Tommy

Same question. I am curious about this system, I have never tried it, or heard of anyone I know using it. I wouldn't have a problem spending a few bucks to learn about it, but I would like to know which one of your pieces of material delves into this 3 point pocket system the most, and the TOI system.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It's around an hour of JUST TOI and 3 PPS,

Which of CJ's DVD's explain TOI and the three pocket system the fullest.

Thanks....Tommy

In my first DVD (Ultimate Pool Secrets) I touch on 53 different topics, just don't spend much time on the Three Part Pocket System and wasn't ready to release the TOI Technique at that time. The "Billiards Inside Secrets' has a chapter on the TOI and the 3 Part Pocket System, however I needed much more time than allowed considering the other hour of content.

I'm making a video now that you will be able to get PPV in a few days. It's around an hour of JUST TOI and 3 PPS, and I demonstrate the complete system. I'm looking forward to completing it, there's about 10 more minutes I"m doing tonight, then the post editting will be complete soon (hopefully by Friday). I'll let everyone know when it's completed www.cjwiley.com always has more info. and you can get a 14.95 Download PPV (one month) of the new BILLIARDS INSIDE SECRETS available now.

 

[Eddie May]

In my first DVD (Ultimate Pool Secrets) I touch on 53 different topics, just don't spend much time on the Three Part Pocket System and wasn't ready to release the TOI Technique at that time. The "Billiards Inside Secrets' has a chapter on the TOI and the 3 Part Pocket System, however I needed much more time than allowed considering the other hour of content.

I'm making a video now that you will be able to get PPV in a few days. It's around an hour of JUST TOI and 3 PPS, and I demonstrate the complete system. I'm looking forward to completing it, there's about 10 more minutes I"m doing tonight, then the post editting will be complete soon (hopefully by Friday). I'll let everyone know when it's completed www.cjwiley.com always has more info. and you can get a 14.95 Download PPV (one month) of the new BILLIARDS INSIDE SECRETS available now.

Please do let me know when you have the 1 hour on 3 PPS and TOI because I would be very interested in that.

 

[Softballmvp]

This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Ok, I'm not arguing against TOI, just wanted to point out what I think is a difference in the above statement about other sports. And that difference is a 3rd dimension... height, air, gravity, whatever you want to say. In tennis, hitting a spin shot allows more room for air because you taking speed off the ball, making it easier to drop in vs rifling it your hardest. I can't speak for golf as I don't play, but I imagine that plays a part. Baseball, for a pitcher, gravity applies, spin is used for deception mainly. But if a pitcher has a 3-0 count, they normally throw a slower fastball to get the strike when they "have to get a strike", so that would be the opposite. They don't spin it with a curve ball for that strike very often. Bowling, sure it may apply somewhat, but mainly it's for pin action I'd say (I don't bowl much either). Pool doesn't have gravity, except for jump shots of course. So I find this a little "off" as far as a relation to the subject of TOI.

 

[One Pocket John]

As always great post CJ.

Like I mention in another thread, I have about 100 hours of TOI under my belt and understand that the 3 part pocket system is part of the TOI process.

What I'm working on now is playing position using TOI. I'm an old "spin you cue ball where you want it to go" guy. So I am having to relearn position play using TOI. There is value in what you are presenting and I will continue to follow your advice.

Like I have stated in other threads the 3 part pocket system is the nutz.

I will be glad when you finish the TOI - 3PPS video. Position play will never be the same. Put me on the list.

Whatever you do please dont mention the "hammer". I wish I had a sword but ended up with a Falcon.

Thanks Again

John

 

[8pack]

I just have to "agree to disagree" with those that recommend hitting "center ball". This is much more difficult than most players realize and even with a great stroke you're bound to hit it slightly off 1-5% of the time. This makes the cue ball deflect and leaves you confused on exactly why you miss certain shots.

I deflect every shot slightly,(unless dead staight in) so that I can play the shot to the nearest part of the pocket. This gives me a chance to play the pocket as a "Zone," and thus gives me more margin of error than a "center ball" hitter. All champion players throw balls in by cuing it off center whether their aware of it or not.

Even the greatest bank players throw/hold/stiff (whatever term you choose) their banks so they curve slighly into the hole. This also gives them a pocket "zone" and more margin for error, thus increasing their percentages (and confidence).

I was taught how to bank by Tony Fargo and paid him $700. for his "bank system". Needless to say it paid off many times over (I won over 7k the first week) because he showed me how he aligned and "threw" his banks in an effectively created a bigger "Pocket Zone".

This isn't just true in pool, but in golf, bowling, baseball, tennis, etc. Being able to "move" the ball though spin or deflection is the key that increases a players awareness of the "deeper" level of pocket billiards. 'The Game is the Teacher'

You mean you just shoot a wider angle and make the ball come in straighter rite?Not sure throwing the ball in makes a wider pocket.

I would say inside englishing the ball creates the bigger pocket.(Then speed)

 

[TommyT]

In my first DVD (Ultimate Pool Secrets) I touch on 53 different topics, just don't spend much time on the Three Part Pocket System and wasn't ready to release the TOI Technique at that time. The "Billiards Inside Secrets' has a chapter on the TOI and the 3 Part Pocket System, however I needed much more time than allowed considering the other hour of content.

I'm making a video now that you will be able to get PPV in a few days. It's around an hour of JUST TOI and 3 PPS, and I demonstrate the complete system. I'm looking forward to completing it, there's about 10 more minutes I"m doing tonight, then the post editting will be complete soon (hopefully by Friday). I'll let everyone know when it's completed www.cjwiley.com always has more info. and you can get a 14.95 Download PPV (one month) of the new BILLIARDS INSIDE SECRETS available now.

Thanks, I've already ordered the inside secrets and will look for the new video on ppv.

 

[duckie]

If the pocket opening is 5 inches point to point, how does spin make this opening larger than 5 inches?

 

[8pack]

If the pocket opening is 5 inches point to point, how does spin make this opening larger than 5 inches?

Inside will by changing the angle.(by making the bank shot wider)
Speed the same thing.Throw is a know go.

 

[One Pocket John]

You mean you just shoot a wider angle and make the ball come in straighter rite?Not sure throwing the ball in makes a wider pocket.

I would say inside englishing the ball creates the bigger pocket.(Then speed)

What is happening is, the pocket has 3 openings, the left side of the pocket, the right side of the pocket and finally the center of the pocket. Using TOI you aim at one side or the other of the pocket (depending on shot) and not the center of the pocket. If you miss your shot line to one side or the other the OB will go into either the center or the other side of the pocket. Thus "the margin for error" is increased.

I look at it like this, I need to make that pocket as big as possible. Just don't aim center pocket (unless the ball is straight in) aim to one side or the other using TOI. Its something you have to take to the table and play with before you really see whats happening.

This is all explained in CJ's latest DVD "Billiards Inside Secrets" for the price you cant beat it.

Hope this helps

John

 

[taojones]

That's not correct at all. I'm saying I give myself a minute margin of error on the cue ball which translates to a bigger margin of error on the actually shot.

Remember, the cue ball is the primary target and no one can hit it exactly pure every time for hours at a time......and that does mean nobody.

i am usually more concerned with where the center of the object ball actually is i usually look where it touches the table and imagine a rod straight up from that point .i make my gestamates from that point as to where i want my contact point.

the center of the cue ball i imagine as a bb in the center of the ball. a good drill is to hit the cue ball longways on the table if it comes back to your cue your hitting on center if left or right on the return bounce you are spinning the cue ball . that said i prefer to throw an object ball because its more predictable than a cut angle. I have constant arguments with my teammates about throwing banks. if you take a striped ball with the stripe parallel to the table and hit it into a rail with english at say 11:00 you will not only see the ball come off the rail at 15 degrees but the stripe will be turning true and the ball will have no spin. some spin can be transferred from the cue ball and widen or hold up the bank angle in a way i find more predictable than picking a spot on the rail and hitting it.

i always aim between the wear lines on the cloth and try to ignore the corners or inner pocket walls . thats how i find my target zone . the faint white wear lines at the rails and into the pocket are made by the center ball cutting the cloth more often. anything on the rail side of those lines does not really exist for the ball. even the thickness of them tells you something because the inside edge is worn by a ball that buried itself in the rail rubber and it shows how stiff the rails are. i think i agree with cj on most of his points. but anybody who thinks he is missing shots because of squirt should pick up 2 balls and rub them together to get an idea of how much friction there actually is on the contact point (even more with a chalk spot on the cue ball) throw is a big factor Bob Jewitt calls it "skate" when a chalk spot on the cue ball causes a weird thing to happen to the object balls angle and he recommends wiping the cue ball when ever you get a ball in hand i read a calculation he did that said if there are 5 chalk spots on a cue ball you have a 20% chance of one interfering with a shot . its helpful to remember english can also remove throw from a cut shot if the cue ball is spinning off the contact point instead of into it. you are more likely to throw a shot accidentally than to squirt off the contact target

 

[8pack]

What is happening is, the pocket has 3 openings, the left side of the pocket, the right side of the pocket and finally the center of the pocket. Using TOI you aim at one side or the other of the pocket (depending on shot) and not the center of the pocket. If you miss your shot line to one side or the other the OB will go into either the center or the other side of the pocket. Thus "the margin for error" is increased.

I look at it like this, I need to make that pocket as bid as possible. Just don't aim center pocket (unless the ball is straight in) aim to one side or the other using TOI. Its something you have to take to the table and play with before you really see whats happening.

This is all explained in CJ's latest DVD "Billiards Inside Secrets" for the price you cant beat it.

Hope this helps

John

John I understand that,what I was commenting about was banking.
You cannot throw a bank shot in and increase the pocket.Pocket angle has to be changed and there only two ways to create a bigger pocket , inside and speed.

Anthony

 

[CJ Wiley]

It's an analogy about how to create margin of error with spin

Ok, I'm not arguing against TOI, just wanted to point out what I think is a difference in the above statement about other sports. And that difference is a 3rd dimension... height, air, gravity, whatever you want to say. In tennis, hitting a spin shot allows more room for air because you taking speed off the ball, making it easier to drop in vs rifling it your hardest. I can't speak for golf as I don't play, but I imagine that plays a part. Baseball, for a pitcher, gravity applies, spin is used for deception mainly. But if a pitcher has a 3-0 count, they normally throw a slower fastball to get the strike when they "have to get a strike", so that would be the opposite. They don't spin it with a curve ball for that strike very often. Bowling, sure it may apply somewhat, but mainly it's for pin action I'd say (I don't bowl much either). Pool doesn't have gravity, except for jump shots of course. So I find this a little "off" as far as a relation to the subject of TOI.

It's an analogy about how to create margin of error with spin and deflection. If someone doesn't know how to do it I figure they may understand though their knowledge of other sports or games. The "air factor" doesn't apply to the zones depicted in this analogy. I"m trying to think of a "non sport" analogy of how else to try to communicate it.

Let's try this one: You're driving down a two lane highway and a car pulls out in front of you {that you will certainly hit}. You only have enough time to swerve to the LEFT and regain control in an area equal to HALF the two lane highway. The QUESTION IS would you rather be driving {starting out} in the middle of the two lanes, or just in the right lane?

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'm giving you the key, John, that unlocks the door

What is happening is, the pocket has 3 openings, the left side of the pocket, the right side of the pocket and finally the center of the pocket. Using TOI you aim at one side or the other of the pocket (depending on shot) and not the center of the pocket. If you miss your shot line to one side or the other the OB will go into either the center or the other side of the pocket. Thus "the margin for error" is increased.

I look at it like this, I need to make that pocket as bid as possible. Just don't aim center pocket (unless the ball is straight in) aim to one side or the other using TOI. Its something you have to take to the table and play with before you really see whats happening.

This is all explained in CJ's latest DVD "Billiards Inside Secrets" for the price you cant beat it.

Hope this helps

John

That's correct, John, I can tell your game is improving. It's tough to talk about maximizing margin of error with those that don't play any other sports, however, I'm going to take it as a personal challenge. :wink:

One thing I'll say to you, John, because you're at the level {of TOI} it will make sense: If you just just the Touch OF Inside and are hitting the center of the pocket you are, indeed, aiming at the correct side of the pocket (you will already know this).

You see, if you're hitting the cue ball to the right of center you are deflecting it slightly left (even with a LD shaft, just less). This means if you are hitting the center of the pocket you MUST be aiming at the left side of the pocket. Will only know this by the results, AND YOU WILL KNOW IT. Because as you and I know - on most shots (except straight in's) you can't see the center of the pocket, let alone aim at it.

This is why pocketing balls is more of a feel/touch emphasis - because you can't see the "pocket target" while you're aiming at the object ball. You simply can't see those two targets at the same time. Systems like Pro1 may (according to people that use it) allow you to hit the center, using center ball, however, it's still NOT because you are "aiming" at the target (you are aiming with the cue ball). From my understanding of that system it works because of the perfect angles on the pool table and you can cover the pocket up and still hit it (so you obviously don't have to "aim" at it).

You'll understand this John, and it's possibly complicated to anyone "just tuning in,"{I'll make it simpler in the next couple of days}, I just needed to get that out there for those that "Real Eyes" what I'm explaining.

I'm giving you the key, John, that unlocks the door to playing a champions speed. We learned how to do this unconsciously, but the information is coming out to even the playing field for everyone.

 

[CJ Wiley]

the download is the only thing available until Jan 14.

Thanks, I've already ordered the inside secrets and will look for the new video on ppv.

Thanks, we sent out your DVD today. I ran out of 'Billiards Inside Secrets' so the download is the only thing available until Jan 14. I do have a few of the Ultimate Pool Secrets still on DVD (three videos on one)

I have the $14.95 special available at www.cjwiley.com and it has more on many subjects including the TOI and the 3PartPocketSystem.

 

[CJ Wiley]

if you feel more comfortable you could call it "more receptive."

You mean you just shoot a wider angle and make the ball come in straighter rite?Not sure throwing the ball in makes a wider pocket.

I would say inside englishing the ball creates the bigger pocket.(Then speed)

The champion bank players will "bend" or "hold" their straight back banks so they curve into the pocket when going down the rail. This creates a "zone" that is bigger than if you just banked the ball straight at the pocket.

Obviously no one can change the physical size of a pocket, however, the techniques I'm discussing {though deflecting and/or spinning} change the normal path the ball approaches the pocket. This change makes the pocket "zone" more receptive to accepting the ball.

We have always called it "bigger"{POCKET (for pool)} and if you feel more comfortable you could call it "more receptive." In bowling they say the pro bowler is curving/spinning the ball into the "POCKET," of the pins....it just would sound redundant to say the ball is going into the "pocket" of the pocket.


bowling pocket pins

 

[BasementDweller]

You make a good point, HOWEVER, it seems you are overlooking the key reasons I encourage "mastering a particular shot". Yes, I can hit any part of the cue ball I need to, and can put any type of spin on the cue ball. I've said countless times and people on here that have followed my posts will agree I've probably said it 50 times "I do NOT use Inside english and that's NOT what TOI is" - Using Inside English all the time would be a VERY negative thing to do.

If this were the case it would be called "inside spin" not "Touch of Inside". The technique I suggest gives you a different type of "Touch," and only encourages you to hit a "hair" to the inside with NO attempt to spin the cue ball at all.

Okay, so on what percentage of shots would you say you actually use TOI? The way you talk about it on here, you lead the reader to believe that it's something you do on nearly every shot. But you obviously don't use it when you need to use outside English.

It almost seems like it's just a cinching technique.

If you think you can consistently hit center ball then set up the cue ball on the head spot, hit it firmly to the middle diamond and see how many times out of 100 you can make it come exactly straight back. If you can do this every time and that's the style you want to play then I'm not sure what you're searching for? You are officially the greatest pool player on earth.:wink:

Alright. I'll put the cue ball on the spot and cue to hit center ball, then I'll strike the cue ball and see if it comes back to my tip. Then I'll do the same thing, but I'll cue to hit the cue ball with a TOI and see if it comes back to my tip. Are you saying that if I use a TOI I have a better chance of getting the cue ball to come back to my tip?

A couple of years ago I was suprised at how horrible I was at this simple drill. I then completely reworked my stance, grip, and my stroke. I'm now cueing much better and my success rate on this drill is now pretty good. Still have more work to do though.

As far as what I'm searching for is concerned: on this site just interesting discussion - that's it. The answers to the bigger questions in life I haven't found on here.

The TOI technique is about creating a way to maximize margin of error. Without spin or deflection this isn't possible, and it also wouldn't be possible if the pocket was the same size as the object ball. You would have to hit it exactly in the center of the pocket with no room for error. This is not the case, the pocket is twice (in most cases) as big as the ball and this leaves you a "margin of error".

Throwing the ball slightly with either spin or deflection allows you to align to one side of the pocket and "work" the ball to the middle. If you "work" it too much it will still go in the outer side of the pocket. This is the basics of the '3 Part Pocket System' and it is brutally effective (I do speak from experience).

I think this part has been shown to be inaccurate several times.

If a player aims for the center of the pocket and miss hits the cue ball to the right, the cue ball squirts left, and the object ball goes into the right side of the pocket (provided we are striking it firm to avoid swerve). Same but opposite thing happens if a player miss hits the cue ball to the left. Essentially, the area that the cue ball can be struck and the player still makes the ball is the same regardless of whether or not you cue using center ball or TOI. You're just moving the area (or patch) over to one side of the cue ball.

It's just like in golf when a player "draws" or "fades" the ball every chance they get and "works" the ball towards their target. Is this because they can't hit other type spins? Of course not, it's because they have confidence in that particular shot and feel like they can count on it EVERY DAY. Can you count on your game every day?

At the top levels of pool and other games/sports you must master a "themed" shot (with many "variations") that you can count on or it's impossible to perform at the world class level day in and day out. You will see this is in golf, tennis, pitching, bowling, football, ping pong and yes, pool's no different, you can (if you choose) use spin and/or deflection to increase your target zone. If you choose not to we can still be friends. 'The Game is the Teacher'

The shot you speak of for me is the center ball stop shot. I think that's a good shot to base your game on.

I have messed around with deflecting shots into the pocket, not necessaryily just using a TOI. I see how you can do this on fullish hits. On shots that you can clearly see the pocket. On these types of shots, deflecting the ball into the pocket would just be a cinching techique that temporarily masks your inability to hit center ball.

After you get acclimated to this technique, why wouldn't the same stroking issue cause you to have a problem hitting the cue ball with the needed amount of English (to deflect the shot it)? I think it would. So if you can't hit the spot on the cue ball that you're aiming at, why not just address that to begin with?

The only other use I see of your technique is it helps you dial in the deflection of your cue. That can definitely be beneficial. It always help me to revisit that every once in a while.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us banges CJ. I do appreciate it. I think you do a good job handling us detractors and keeping us in our place. Keep it up.

I'm glad that we can still be friends.:grin-square:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

CJ:
Obviously no one can change the physical size of a pocket, however, the techniques I'm discussing {though deflecting and/or spinning} change the normal path the ball approaches the pocket.

Nonsense. TOI doesn't change the OB's approach to the pocket (or increase the pocket's margin for error in any other way). You can get away with squishy claims about the psychology of avoiding one side of the CB, but once you get physical it's either true or false - and this claim is still false.

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

I MAKE the table accept that shot

Okay, so on what percentage of shots would you say you actually use TOI? The way you talk about it on here, you lead the reader to believe that it's something you do on nearly every shot. But you obviously don't use it when you need to use outside English.

It almost seems like it's just a cinching technique.



Alright. I'll put the cue ball on the spot and cue to hit center ball, then I'll strike the cue ball and see if it comes back to my tip. Then I'll do the same thing, but I'll cue to hit the cue ball with a TOI and see if it comes back to my tip. Are you saying that if I use a TOI I have a better chance of getting the cue ball to come back to my tip?

A couple of years ago I was suprised at how horrible I was at this simple drill. I then completely reworked my stance, grip, and my stroke. I'm now cueing much better and my success rate on this drill is now pretty good. Still have more work to do though.

As far as what I'm searching for is concerned: on this site just interesting discussion - that's it. The answers to the bigger questions in life I haven't found on here.



I think this part has been shown to be inaccurate several times.

If a player aims for the center of the pocket and miss hits the cue ball to the right, the cue ball squirts left, and the object ball goes into the right side of the pocket (provided we are striking it firm to avoid swerve). Same but opposite thing happens if a player miss hits the cue ball to the left. Essentially, the area that the cue ball can be struck and the player still makes the ball is the same regardless of whether or not you cue using center ball or TOI. You're just moving the area (or patch) over to one side of the cue ball.


The shot you speak of for me is the center ball stop shot. I think that's a good shot to base your game on.

I have messed around with deflecting shots into the pocket, not necessaryily just using a TOI. I see how you can do this on fullish hits. On shots that you can clearly see the pocket. On these types of shots, deflecting the ball into the pocket would just be a cinching techique that temporarily masks your inability to hit center ball.

After you get acclimated to this technique, why wouldn't the same stroking issue cause you to have a problem hitting the cue ball with the needed amount of English (to deflect the shot it)? I think it would. So if you can't hit the spot on the cue ball that you're aiming at, why not just address that to begin with?

The only other use I see of your technique is it helps you dial in the deflection of your cue. That can definitely be beneficial. It always help me to revisit that every once in a while.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us banges CJ. I do appreciate it. I think you do a good job handling us detractors and keeping us in our place. Keep it up.

I'm glad that we can still be friends.:grin-square:

Yes, the key for me is to use it on every shot unless I"m changing the angle of the cue ball coming off the rail OR curving the cue ball. The speed of the shot, shot angle and where the cue tip contacts the cue ball is all blended together in this technique.

There's not three different calculations, just one for the most part. The less calculations you have to make the more consistent you can become, especially in long matches or tournaments. Sure there's exceptions, and there are with anything, however, for the most part I use the TOI on every shot I can.

I MAKE the table accept that shot, instead of "being at the mercy of the table"....it's just another way of playing that's effective.

When you do the drill and hit the cue ball straight up table it will come straight back with center (which is a great drill for for accuracy), however with the TOI it will spin about a half a diamond the direction you're cuing it...TOI LEFT will come back a half a diamond to the left for example.

 

[BasementDweller]

snipped the first part...

When you do the drill and hit the cue ball straight up table it will come straight back with center (which is a great drill for for accuracy), however with the TOI it will spin about a half a diamond the direction you're cuing it...TOI LEFT will come back a half a diamond to the left for example.

Oh, so the TOI inside method is imparting inside English after all.

At any rate, we now have something we can test.

We can all try the shot 10 times each way. You shoot it 10 times with center ball and see how close it comes to your tip. Then you shoot it 10 times with a TOI inside and see how many times you can get it to return to the exact same spot, but on the first shot you have to have a designated target to make it even.

Here's were I have to be careful not to jump to conclusions because I'm not sure what's going to happen. I'm thinking that you will get a similar spread between the two. With the center ball shots sometimes missing to the right of your tip and sometimes to the left. The touch of inside shots should sometimes spin more than a diamond and sometimes less. Not entirely sure about this, but I do think it's something we can work with.

Now let's say the spread is about the same, what would this tell us? (You may need more than 10 shots each to get a legitimate sample size, I don't know). That either way you cue you have stroking errors that you have to deal with. So why not just aim for the center of the pocket and let your errors take you to one side or the other of the pocket? This seems reasonable to me, except if you KNOW FOR SURE that all of your stroking errors are on a specific side of the cue ball. In that case, the TOI technique may work.

Oh but wait a second, if you know that your stroke ALWAYS generates errors on a specific side of the cue ball, why not just address that to begin with? After all, you have some really useful information to work with - that is you know that you are for some reason cueing off every time to one side or the other. Heck, if you want to you could just start cueing slightly off the center of the cue ball in order to hit it dead center. Then you could aim for the center of the pocket, which is where I think we all naturally want to aim to begin with.

Well, now what if the test results show you are more accurate with the TOI technique?

First, I think you should start lagging using this technique. Which, by the way I have noticed that Darren Appleton (as someone on AZ pointed out) tends to lag at a slight angle. Which is interesting...I wonder if he cues with a bit of English or if he slightly angles his lag shots???

Secondly, maybe somehow this WOULD show that cueing for a bit of English is more forgiving than cueing for center ball. I don't really see how that would be, put it's above my pay grade and I would have to defer to those that are more knowledgeable in this department.

I am going to try out those test shots just to satisfy my own curiosity and see what I find.

I'll report back at a later date.


***EDIT***

I suppose the reason the TOI shots could come back to the left of the starting position could be just from the squirt and the imparted English could be worn off before hitting the cushion. These would have to be very soft strokes though. That would be more inline with what CJ has been saying from the beginning about NOT using English with using the TOI technique. I just had that thought a moment ago.