Force-Follow Stroking Advice, If Possible..

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
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BINGO Joey! A lot of people don't realize that one of Efren's most powerful weapons in his prime was literally releasing the cue just before impact and then catching it after impact on certain shots --- particularly certain top spin shots. The hit was as pure as you can get because the influence of human contact at impact was removed.

Snooker players do something similar.

Releasing the grip on the backswing and then regripping the cue after impact.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
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Why? What would that accomplish?

Back up your statement. You were quick to say how wrong I am, and that a lot of amateurs can do it, well, you are a pro, so show us no nothings how it's done. Surely you should have no problem doing it.
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
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Are you some boxing expert too Neil ?
How ?

I was a boxing gym rat in my college days.
I frequented a boxing gym then. Trained with the pros even.
Two of my gym mates actually earned world title shots .

Are you equating punching power with fast twitch muscle gift or something ?

And you actually expect Fran to know boxing all that well ?
Like Dr Joyce Brothers winning the 64,000 Question under the tutelage of Nat Fleischer ?
Speaking of punching power, among those in the list of the hardest hitters by Nat Fleischer was the Mighty Atom, Jimmy Wilde. All 110 lbs of him . +- a pound or two. I wonder if he was as gifted in the fast twitch muscle area as Max Baer.


Does Efren have more fast twitch muscles than the usual soul ?
He was some buck 30 lbs in his prime .
Back in the mid 90's to 2000 he was using that heavy long Jessie cue.
We used to make fun of it when we played with it at his old road manager's place in Riverside . I was there the day Mark Wilson called him about the Color of Money match in HK. I asked Efren why he did not like linen wrap. He showed me his "grip" . It's not even a grip. It's a loose hold and he lets the cue go when needed. He does not muscle the ball.

Like most power stroke shots, force follow is just another skill, timing and hand to eye coordination more than muscle.
I gotta agree with Fran.

You might want to look up what fast twitch muscle fiber is. ;)
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Snooker players do something similar.

Releasing the grip on the backswing and then regripping the cue after impact.

I don't think so. Some of them open their back fingers. I don't know of any snooker player who actually releases the grip.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Back up your statement. You were quick to say how wrong I am, and that a lot of amateurs can do it, well, you are a pro, so show us no nothings how it's done. Surely you should have no problem doing it.

Nah. I don't do the chest-pounding thing like you do. I'm fine with you not believing me or my ability. I don't have the fragile ego that you do.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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Snooker players do something similar.

Releasing the grip on the backswing and then regripping the cue after impact.

I think we're talking about two different things. You might be talking about degrees of grip pressure. I'm referring to literally letting go of the cue stick so that the cue actually slides through the hand as it impacts the ball and then the hand catches the cue after impact. If you let go in the back swing in the way I mean, the cue will continue backwards. You would have to re grip it again to move it forward. Right?
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Well, it's like anything else in pool.... if you keep at it, it gets better. I'm able to now do 3-4 balls on the description that I wrote about. And, I do NOT let my cue stick slide.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, it's like anything else in pool.... if you keep at it, it gets better. I'm able to now do 3-4 balls on the description that I wrote about. And, I do NOT let my cue stick slide.

Good for you. And it doesn't matter what twitch muscle fibers you have for those types of shots. Also, as you have proven to yourself, you don't have to release the cue either. Releasing the cue is a different topic for discussion, but basically, it's to prevent a player's sub conscious from taking over at the point the tip strikes the ball. You'd be surprised at the things we do sub consciously to the cue stick while it's in motion.

I experimented with releasing the cue for several months and I found that it does give a purer hit but it also damages the cue because you can't always catch it in time, and it will hit the ends of the table. But it made me realize that even the process of simply holding the cue stick can be detrimental to the hit at times when you have very little margin for error in a particular shot.
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
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Good for you. And it doesn't matter what twitch muscle fibers you have for those types of shots. Also, as you have proven to yourself, you don't have to release the cue either. Releasing the cue is a different topic for discussion, but basically, it's to prevent a player's sub conscious from taking over at the point the tip strikes the ball. You'd be surprised at the things we do sub consciously to the cue stick while it's in motion.

I experimented with releasing the cue for several months and I found that it does give a purer hit but it also damages the cue because you can't always catch it in time, and it will hit the ends of the table. But it made me realize that even the process of simply holding the cue stick can be detrimental to the hit at times when you have very little margin for error in a particular shot.

The sub conscious mind is very powerful.
I can shoot an 8 foot shot and draw the cue ball back 8 feet with out any conscious thought.
But when someone asks me to do it sometimes i have trouble because I start to think about the mechanics of the shot.
I have to block out the mechanics and think about another subject and just let it happen .
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
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The sub conscious mind is very powerful.
I can shoot an 8 foot shot and draw the cue ball back 8 feet with out any conscious thought.
But when someone asks me to do it sometimes i have trouble because I start to think about the mechanics of the shot.
I have to block out the mechanics and think about another subject and just let it happen .

It can be a benefit or a curse. Depends. Take for example, someone with a steering problem. They don't realize they're steering the cue until after they've missed the shot. On the other hand, like you wrote, trying to control everything consciously can be detrimental as well. I have found that the key is to find a workable balance between the two.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
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Good for you. And it doesn't matter what twitch muscle fibers you have for those types of shots. Also, as you have proven to yourself, you don't have to release the cue either. Releasing the cue is a different topic for discussion, but basically, it's to prevent a player's sub conscious from taking over at the point the tip strikes the ball. You'd be surprised at the things we do sub consciously to the cue stick while it's in motion.

I experimented with releasing the cue for several months and I found that it does give a purer hit but it also damages the cue because you can't always catch it in time, and it will hit the ends of the table. But it made me realize that even the process of simply holding the cue stick can be detrimental to the hit at times when you have very little margin for error in a particular shot.

Good for you, but I won't try releasing the cue stick.
 

JoeyInCali

Maker of Joey Bautista Cues
Silver Member
Good for you, but I won't try releasing the cue stick.

Tell that to Efren and John Schmidt .
JS in a video interview on TAR argued it this way .
Find a spot on the floor and hit .
He said you'll never be as accurate in poking instead of dropping the cue to that spot.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
Gold Member
Silver Member
Tell that to Efren and John Schmidt .
JS in a video interview on TAR argued it this way .
Find a spot on the floor and hit .
He said you'll never be as accurate in poking instead of dropping the cue to that spot.

Is that what you do? How long did it take you to perfect it?
 

Bob Jewett

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Yup.
Efren was using his extra long heavy cue then.

Amateurs and normal souls cannot execute that shot b/c us normal souls will be trying all our might to muscle that shot.
Anyone who has dabbled in artistic billiards will know that shot. The problem is that the vast majority of pool players don't spin their cue ball very well because they have never learned to hit it far enough from center.
 

Bob Jewett

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Tell that to Efren and John Schmidt .
JS in a video interview on TAR argued it this way .
Find a spot on the floor and hit .
He said you'll never be as accurate in poking instead of dropping the cue to that spot.

I doubt that John was talking about releasing the stick during the forward stroke. But what you're saying above is very unclear. Can you explain further?
 
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