How Fractional Aiming Systems Help

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
mohrt:
Either system can reach an "automatic" state with enough practice. However I think CTE gets you there much quicker, and is much easier to maintain.
Me:
I think this is a possible difference between fractional systems and learning to aim purely by feel, but not much of a difference between CTE and other fractional systems.
mohrt:
Do not agree, see my previous post.
The big difference between CTE and other fractional systems is CTE's addition of "the visual" and "the pivot". But these are undefined (even on Stan's DVD, which I've seen more than once), so they don't add any objective specificity to the aiming instructions.

As I've said before, these vague instructions are apparently useful for some system users to help overcome their lack of confidence in their own ability to use "feel", but I don't think that's a universal difference.

pj
chgo
 
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SJDinPHX

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just curious, not being obnoxious....

No I'm just saying fractional aiming requires more conscious adjustments than CTE. Either system can reach an "automatic" state with enough practice. However I think CTE gets you there much quicker, and is much easier to maintain.

Which begs the question...Why does it take a 4-5 hundred thread, every other day, to determine what all the "yeasayers" is so obvious ??? :confused: :boring2:
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
The big difference between CTE and other fractional systems is CTE's addition of "the visual" and "the pivot". But these are undefined (even on Stan's DVD, which I've seen more than once), so they don't add any objective specificity to the aiming instructions.

pj
chgo

Man, you really don't get it.

The visual and the pivot have always been there. They have to be defined in order to teach the methods in an easier fashion. In the exact same way that I had to develop many ways to explain the motions in jumping a ball to teach others how to jump balls.

I had to INVENT terms in order to explain simple motions in ways that the student could understand. I had to have many ways to explain it because not everyone could understand the concept if presented in just one way.

But until you actually get busy on the table and really try to just follow the directions you will never understand it coming from the position that you are currently in.

On Saturday I showed someone 90/90 using quarters on a magazine. Sitting at the table I explained the concept and showed it in action without a pool table. You can use any of these methods in life as well to orient yourself to any objects and aim.

And when you do it it's much more precise than simply using feel. Feel is awesome WHEN you're on and crap when you're not. Having a system allows you to be "on" just about ALL the time as far as the aim goes and then focus on relaxing and letting your stroke out to hopefully get in dead punch with your execution.
 

champ2107

Banned
sigh...can you explain to me where the fractional aiming comes into to play with cte/pro1, when I have any kind of shot in front of me…do not be guessing at it because I will bring follow up questions and I know what to ask or do you agree you are not totally clear on this fractional/cte aiming and your just guessing at it?
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
Which begs the question...Why does it take a 4-5 hundred thread, every other day, to determine what all the "yeasayers" is so obvious ??? :confused: :boring2:

Because the whole thing amounts to an adult (oxymoron here) version of "is too/is not".

No one can let it go.

Here is what I wish would happen;

I wish that every yeasayer would put Pat on ignore. Total ignore. Then when he makes a thread like this it will simply die. But we are fish who take the bait every frigging time.
 

cookie man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Which begs the question...Why does it take a 4-5 hundred thread, every other day, to determine what all the "yeasayers" is so obvious ??? :confused: :boring2:

Because the NAYSAYERS keep starting threads. Why do you keep coming back?
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The key to Stan's CTE is eye positioning -- different eye positions for the same set of visuals. That's what converts CTE from a discrete method (limited number of cut angles for a given CB-OB distance) to one with enough cut angles to pocket all shots.

No one has been able to explicitly prescribe how to achieve the eye positions needed for all shots. That knowledge is derived from experience using the method.

Stan told us all this a year ago.

This is another groundhog day.
 

champ2107

Banned
he is stuck right now and he is in a holding position. he does not know how to continue this further at the moment. i will help him out.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I wish that every yeasayer would put Pat on ignore. Total ignore. Then when he makes a thread like this it will simply die. But we are fish who take the bait every frigging time.
Again with the "yeasayer/naysayer" stuff.

I'd be glad to be on the ignore list of anybody who wants only to argue about whether or not CTE is "exact".

pj
chgo
 

justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
It seems to me that Patrick, Lamas and Morht are having a perfectly reasonable discussion about the subject.

If everyone else ON BOTH SIDES of the argument would remain as civil, this thread might accomplish something, a scary thought given the subjects history here on AZB.

Just sayin'
 

PoolSharkAllen

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But you aim by fidgeting. Or you did.

When you get down on the shot, bridge hand formed, cue addressing the ball, you are still moving around looking for the shot line.

You shoot ok but you don't make every ball either. And the more difficult the shot the more you fidget.

So sure, eventually you settle on a line that you feel confident in but at what cost?

Now shot making isn't all there is to pool but it's the most important task to continue shooting and win the game. You can't be a good or great player without being a pretty good or great shotmaker.

What I can't understand is why you are carrying this torch?

So with that why do you care what others do and how they talk about it? Is is it really that important in your life to continually put down something you yourself have zero interest in ever using or even actually trying?

Well Pat, I don't know how you play right now but if you still play the same way you did when we last met I don't think you honestly want to make a video of your technique and put it out there for everyone to see.

To be clear, you play decently, as good as me or possibly a touch better, but that's a battle of B-players as far as I see it. Neither of us has much to brag about when it comes to our form.

So why not live and let live? You get down on the ball and fidget until you find the right line and others stand up and look at the balls a certain way until they are comfortable with the alignment and they get down and are firm on the line they chose. Why do you feel compelled to hold their eyes open with toothpicks and project the word "feel" on them until they vomit?
You gotta cut PJ some slack. PJ is human and he fidgets. You're human too and as shown in your videos, you flap your arm around like a chicken. :D You may have perfect aiming skills -- or not -- but with that chicken wing stroke of yours, you don't make every ball either. Like you said, with your form you have nothing to brag about.

Given your own shooting imperfections, why do you feel compelled to carpet bomb every aiming system thread with your rambling nostrums and ram CTE/Pro1 down everyone's throats? Try taking your own advice for once: To live and let live. :angel:
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
The key to Stan's CTE is eye positioning -- different eye positions for the same set of visuals. That's what converts CTE from a discrete method (limited number of cut angles for a given CB-OB distance) to one with enough cut angles to pocket all shots.

No one has been able to explicitly prescribe how to achieve the eye positions needed for all shots. That knowledge is derived from experience using the method.

Stan told us all this a year ago.

This is another groundhog day.
Changing head/eye alignment is one of four techniques that can be used to make CTE work over a wide range of shots. Three other approaches are described and illustrated here (see options 2 through 4):

It seems that not all people use Stan's version of CTE the same way. Some shift their eyes, and others claim the eyes never shift. Regardless, one of the four approaches is required for most shots.

Regards,
Dave
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
It seems to me that Patrick, Lamas and Morht are having a perfectly reasonable discussion about the subject.

If everyone else ON BOTH SIDES of the argument would remain as civil, this thread might accomplish something, a scary thought given the subjects history here on AZB.

Just sayin'

I agree. I hope what we're seeing in this thread of late is only temporary, and not the engine warning light that will signal this thread is about to take a nosedive into the ground!

Pat, Monte, Lamas, and others contributing -- please stay the course! It's just a little turbulence; it'll pass.

-Sean
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Changing head/eye alignment is one of four techniques that can be used to make CTE work over a wide range of shots. ...

If we talk about CTE and pivot methods in general, I imagine there might be even more than the four techniques you listed! My post you quoted is referring specifically to Stan's CTE and what he is teaching/saying about how it works.
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Coming in late to the party, as usual. I rarely check this on the weekends, only at work... :)

Just to address a few things I read, a little long but hopefully informative:

- I don't believe CTE is a fractional system, not in the traditional sense. The only thing it has in common is that it makes use of fractional points on the object ball (1/4, 1/2, 1/8) for secondary aim lines, but there is no similar matching being done on the cueball or interpolation needed between those lines in order to pocket balls

- We all fidget or make slight adjustments when lining up a shot or while down on a shot, that doesn't change with CTE/Pro1 or any other method, although I've found that the more I fidget with CTE/Pro1, assuming I was lined up correctly, the more likely I am to miss the shot

- I keep seeing questions about how things are undefined in Stan's method. While I admit that some of the information might not be apparent to everyone who watches the DVD, as it wasn't to me initially, with study, asking questions, etc. it is all there. I think the steps are pretty simple, and there is no guess work involved, only the use of your eyes which you would be doing anyway when performing any other sort of aiming method. What I do is pretty simply described:

-----> I approach the shot from behind, roughly using the CTE line as a reference point. This may not be necessary, but it's how I approach the shots consistently and align my body to the shot to get into my stance

-----> While in my stance and looking at the shot, I make sure I still have a strong visual of the center to edge line - from the center of the cue ball to the outside edge of the object ball. This is quickly learned since it's the same line on almost every shot regardless of distance, angle, etc.

-----> Once I have that line in my sight, I look to also pick up or see the secondary aim line based on the shot at hand. I might already be in the right alignment, or it might require a slight shifting of my eyes or leaning of my head, but my goal is to be able to pick up this line in my sight

-----> Once I have that sight picture, I bend down and move into the shot along that line, plane, tunnel, etc., however you want to look at it. Your eyes gave you a sight picture based on a reference line and a secondary line to further narrow your aim, once you have that visual that becomes your line of approach into the shot. You aren't aiming at any specific point, which is what confuses some people (and me initially), you just move into the shot along that visual the same as if you were moving into the shot toward the contact point or ghost ball or whatever, your eyes just lead the way

-----> As you approach, you pivot the correct way into the shot if using Pro1 pivot, which is a simple slight movement of your body on the way down to the shot, or you approach the cueball with your stick lined up 1/2 tip left or right as needed and then manually pivot to center. As explained before you can really use any size pivot, but the 1/2 tip pivot seems more forgiving and leads to a much smaller and repeatable movement than 1/2 ball pivot


That's it. I don't see how there is anymore feel in that approach than in any other. I'm looking at a discrete line, then moving slightly as needed to pick up another line. No different than trying to aim at a contact point, ghost ball, etc., it's all done with the eyes. Once you have that spot, you approach the shot the same way, by trying to align your body and bridge hand to be able to shoot along that line. The only difference here is you make a slight pivot to center ball instead of trying to end up directly at center ball, but again that's a defined, measured amount, not something you would want to change at all.

The nice thing with this approach, for me at least, is all shots are the same. Straight in, 10 degree cut, 30 degree cut 6 diamonds away, thin cut up the rail, bank, etc., I follow the same routine everytime and rarely have to give a "tougher" shot any more attention than I give the easier shots. All that is needed is knowledge of what category of shot you are dealing with and what resulting aim line and pivot are necessary for the intended pocket, and that is easily acquired with just a short amount of practice.

The more precise you are with your visualization of the lines and execution of the pivot, the more accurate your shot making will become. Trying to outguess the system or fidgeting because something doesn't look right is often a good way to miss the shot. If you execute these steps and something doesn't look right, then just like with any other method you made a mistake in your standing up visualization or in the mechanics of getting down on the shot and should get back up and re-execute your routine. The toughest part initially is to trust the steps and sort of undo years of doing whatever you did prior.


Patrick and others, is there something about this that to you seems like it introduces any more feel than any other aiming method? I'm seriously asking. To me, the lines equate to looking at a ghost ball, but to me and others who like this approach it seems more discrete than looking at something in space. The move into the ball is almost exactly the same, you still have to get down on the shot along the aim line you chose. Making a small pivot at the end, or during the approach, could be an area where feel would come in, but I can tell you 100% that once I have the visual line I don't look up at all, I look at the cueball on the way down and my entire focus is on getting to center ball. Then I take a few warmup strokes and THEN look up at the object ball, and I very rarely have to adjust from there, I'm just on the correct shot line and ready to shoot.

I can also tell you that no one would ever know I'm pivoting into the shot, the movement is so subtle. I was just helping someone the other night, CTE came up in discussion after he told me what I good shotmaker I was. He said he was trying to play with it but didn't think he could deal with pivoting on every shot. I asked him if he ever saw me pivot on my shots and he said no, then I told him I pivoted on every single shot I took for 2 hours. Then he wanted to know more... :)

Hoping to further the discussion somewhat...
Scott
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
scottjen26:
Patrick and others, is there something about this that to you seems like it introduces any more feel than any other aiming method?
No. But the "debate" is about whether it eliminates feel.

pj
chgo
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
....other good stuff snipped.....

I can also tell you that no one would ever know I'm pivoting into the shot, the movement is so subtle. I was just helping someone the other night, CTE came up in discussion after he told me what I good shotmaker I was. He said he was trying to play with it but didn't think he could deal with pivoting on every shot. I asked him if he ever saw me pivot on my shots and he said no, then I told him I pivoted on every single shot I took for 2 hours. Then he wanted to know more... :)

Hoping to further the discussion somewhat...
Scott

This is EXACTLY the same thing I experience a lot. The other night I was gambling and although I lost I played pretty good and my opponent and several other people commented on how easy I made the "tough" shots. No one mentioned how I was aiming until I told them.

The "pivot" is so blown out of proportion that it's ridiculous. It's a slight balance shift as you settle into the shot line.
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
No. But the "debate" is about whether it eliminates feel.

pj
chgo

Which it does for all practical purposes.

If "feel" is based on a ten point scale with absolute guessing as a 10 and no guessing is a 1 then using a good aiming system is a 1.

What you do is maybe a 4 on such a scale.
 

mohrt

Student of the Game
Silver Member
No. But the "debate" is about whether it eliminates feel.

pj
chgo

Those that have learned CTE may tell you (from their experience with the system) that they do not guess, or make manual adjustments. Having used GB and fractional aiming in the past, you look back and clearly see how different the experience with CTE is. So that in mind, I can see where that would lead to the argument of feel, as feel may be interpreted as having to make adjustments. Since there is no definitive formula for the "slide in and pivot" (yet), it is assumed (by some) that this is where feel (guessing/adjusting) must be involved, and therefore no different than any other aiming method such as ghost ball or fractional aiming.

We know the system works if you give it an honest try. Will we be able to crack open all the inner workings and learn something new from it? Maybe, but so far the unexplained parts just create the debate. As for the system's effectiveness, it's a red herring. Execute the system as prescribed (there IS enough information to make it work) and see for yourself.
 
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