How Fractional Aiming Systems Help

[JB Cases]

You gotta cut PJ some slack. PJ is human and he fidgets. You're human too and as shown in your videos, you flap your arm around like a chicken. You may have perfect aiming skills -- or not -- but with that chicken wing stroke of yours, you don't make every ball either. Like you said, with your form you have nothing to brag about.

Given your own shooting imperfections, why do you feel compelled to carpet bomb every aiming system thread with your rambling nostrums and ram CTE/Pro1 down everyone's throats? Try taking your own advice for once: To live and let live. :angel:

Why don't you simply stay out the discussion altogether? I haven't rammed anything down anyone's throat. My position remains the same as ever. I speak from my own experience and suggest repeatedly that anyone who wants to knock it should try it and then speak from a position of experience as well.

The difference between me and Pat and me and you is that IF someone comes on here with an interesting technique then I will take it to the table and try to understand it ON THE TABLE rather than attempt to denigrate it and put down the people who use it without having tried it.

And before you say something about me responding to you you are not on ignore. I took you off because it's more annoying to see the stupid notices that you are on ignore.

I would be willing to bet that I a much better player than you are though even with my poor form. Unlike you and unlike Pat I am willing to go on the record and attempt to demonstrate what I talk about.

Neither of you have the gumption to do that. But both of you are knockers. I try to HELP people get better and you try to prevent it.

I would like you to point to any post you have ever made in any of these aiming threads that was positive. Please just show us one, just one. Something that helps a person to play better pool? Anything?

That's what I thought. Not only are you constantly negative you are also constantly a stalker.

At 44 I know that I can improve and I relish the thought that I can still get better. I enjoy the quest and enjoy talking about the systems and playing with them and learning little tricks and tips here and there. Sometimes I wish I hadn't because in some ways ignorance is bliss. But in your case ignorance is simply annoying and counterproductive. Given the choice to be me or you I would kill myself in the most painful way possible if I had to be you.

Have a nice day.

 

[stan shuffett]

At Large and Dr. Dave and Pj want perfect language to desribe a visual task. Perfect math is wanted as well.

Well, pool is a visual game followed by physical actions.
Math and words do not always match up perfectly for those areas.

A perfect set of words and math does not exist for our game at this time. I am confident that one day the math can surface.

Having said that, i used words, diagrams, charts, numbers, verbal explanations and physical demonstrations on my DVD of how to REALLY see cb ob relationships and how many, many pros move into their shot lines. This is stuff that has never been taught before.

Was it all perfect? NO, but I know that I have made avaiable an extremely accurate, objective shooting system.

My goal was to bypass words and math.CTE PRO ONE can take any determined student straight to the nitty gritty of what occurs with high level visual and physical performance.

My study and work has been long and tough and I believe it to be worthwhile.

My intentions with my video were to givie aspiring learners of CTE a tool to allow them to start right now with correctness in their visual and physical techniques.

So, make connections and acquire initial experiences and only then will you truly see and understand what CTE PRO ONE is all about.

If you are looking for perfection in word choice and a perfect math formula for CTE PRO ONE, then perhaps you may just Continue to spin your wheels.

Our eyes possess an intelligence that is equally as strong as anyone's math intelligence. And just as s math problem be correct, our eyes can be perfect with pool in ways that math will likely never underdtand, but I am hopeful that the right mind can come along properly do the math.

Stan Shuffett

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Why don't you simply stay out the discussion altogether? I haven't rammed anything down anyone's throat. My position remains the same as ever. I speak from my own experience and suggest repeatedly that anyone who wants to knock it should try it and then speak from a position of experience as well.

The difference between me and Pat and me and you is that IF someone comes on here with an interesting technique then I will take it to the table and try to understand it ON THE TABLE rather than attempt to denigrate it and put down the people who use it without having tried it.

And before you say something about me responding to you you are not on ignore. I took you off because it's more annoying to see the stupid notices that you are on ignore.

I would be willing to bet that I a much better player than you are though even with my poor form. Unlike you and unlike Pat I am willing to go on the record and attempt to demonstrate what I talk about.

Neither of you have the gumption to do that. But both of you are knockers. I try to HELP people get better and you try to prevent it.

I would like you to point to any post you have ever made in any of these aiming threads that was positive. Please just show us one, just one. Something that helps a person to play better pool? Anything?

That's what I thought. Not only are you constantly negative you are also constantly a stalker.

At 44 I know that I can improve and I relish the thought that I can still get better. I enjoy the quest and enjoy talking about the systems and playing with them and learning little tricks and tips here and there. Sometimes I wish I hadn't because in some ways ignorance is bliss. But in your case ignorance is simply annoying and counterproductive. Given the choice to be me or you I would kill myself in the most painful way possible if I had to be you.

Have a nice day.

JB, I'm flattered that you opted to take me off your Ignore list.

I personally don't care what aiming system someone decides to use. But I do care when forum bullies like you engage in ad hominem attacks on other posters, call them names and insult them. You seem to have forgotten that just two weeks ago, in another thread about leather, in just one posting you called a very prominent poster an idiot, stupid and a dog. Why you haven't been tossed by now is beyond comprehension.

Have a nice day.

 

[Banks]

At Large and Dr. Dave and Pj want perfect language to desribe a visual task. Perfect math is wanted as well.

Well, pool is a visual game followed by physical actions.
Math and words do not always match up perfectly for those areas.

A perfect set of words and math does not exist for our game at this time. I am confident that one day the math can surface.

Even general math would work, I would think. The problem is, nobody has really provided anything that shows "feel" is eliminated. You hit it pretty well when describing that the system helps one "get on the line". When miniscule adjustments are made, that still takes "feel", especially when so many different adjustments are available(and how does one decide that each is/isn't correct?).

Our eyes are, more or less, part of our brain(as they feed the information in). The eyes work well for some and not so well for others.

A large part of this whole thing was whether or not "feel" was eliminated. The responses, to me, indicate that it is not eliminated, but rather the need for it is limited. To me, that's still pretty good.

 

[zombie93]

I came to this forum to help my game. I figured that with as many members as azbilliards has there has to be some good information out there. I have been lurking in this thread for days, and despite a bit of friction here and there, I have absolutely improved my game a significant amount! The bit of back and forth bickering made me want to try everyone's stance for myself. Some stuff worked, others didn't grab me right away. So from an outsiders\beginners perspective dare I say it...A bit of arguing is good for something, thanks everyone!

 

[justadub]

I came to this forum to help my game. I figured that with as many members as azbilliards has there has to be some good information out there. I have been lurking in this thread for days, and despite a bit of friction here and there, I have absolutely improved my game a significant amount! The bit of back and forth bickering made me want to try everyone's stance for myself. Some stuff worked, others didn't grab me right away. So from an outsiders\beginners perspective dare I say it...A bit of arguing is good for something, thanks everyone!

That's really cool, and truly shows the power of this forum. I learn stuff here all the time, as well. I think many folks do as well, whether it is a big breakthrough or something small that helps occasionally.

You mention how a small amount of arguing can be good, and I agree. What you don't realize, being new to the forum, is that this subject usually brings out the worst in many contributors here, folks who otherwise make major positive impacts most of the time. This particular version of the debate has been reasonable, and i know I'm not the only one who has recognized it. It is really appreciated, because there is much to be gained for all of us when things stay civil.

Welcome to the forum! There us much to see and read, and it is rarely dull

 

[AtLarge]

At Large and Dr. Dave and Pj want perfect language to desribe a visual task. Perfect math is wanted as well. ...

I'm not looking for the math, Stan. I think I understand how the method works. But I'll certainly admit that I have not yet acquired enough knowledge (through experience) to choose the proper eye positions to play as proficiently as I would like to with the method.

... My study and work has been long and tough and I believe it to be worthwhile. ...

Indeed! I'm grateful for what you have done. As I said a year ago: "I was a student of CTE long before the DVD came out, and what was available was pretty poor. A lot of people who tried to learn it from Hal Houle were left mystified or deemed it geometrically flawed and unworkable. Hal's instructions, at least to many people, were simply: sight center to edge, offset the stick inside or outside depending on thickness of cut needed, and pivot to center. That simple prescription is full of holes, and many of us were unable to add enough meat to the bones to make it into a usable method.

Stan was one of those students who went to see Hal. But Stan was intrigued enough to stick with it until he was able to give it some structure and make it a much more usable method. Stan's specification of secondary sighting lines and specific pivot lengths (for manual CTE) elevates the method to something that is now useful to many more people."

 

[stan shuffett]

Thanks, At Large. I do appreciate your perspective.
Ultimately, experience is our only teacher. True knowledge is a result of experience.
Words do not teach us at all and this is especially true with CTE PRO ONE.
Stan Shuffett

 

[lfigueroa]

At Large and Dr. Dave and Pj want perfect language to desribe a visual task. Perfect math is wanted as well.

Well, pool is a visual game followed by physical actions.
Math and words do not always match up perfectly for those areas.

A perfect set of words and math does not exist for our game at this time. I am confident that one day the math can surface.

Having said that, i used words, diagrams, charts, numbers, verbal explanations and physical demonstrations on my DVD of how to REALLY see cb ob relationships and how many, many pros move into their shot lines. This is stuff that has never been taught before.

Was it all perfect? NO, but I know that I have made avaiable an extremely accurate, objective shooting system.

My goal was to bypass words and math.CTE PRO ONE can take any determined student straight to the nitty gritty of what occurs with high level visual and physical performance.

My study and work has been long and tough and I believe it to be worthwhile.

My intentions with my video were to givie aspiring learners of CTE a tool to allow them to start right now with correctness in their visual and physical techniques.

So, make connections and acquire initial experiences and only then will you truly see and understand what CTE PRO ONE is all about.

If you are looking for perfection in word choice and a perfect math formula for CTE PRO ONE, then perhaps you may just Continue to spin your wheels.

Our eyes possess an intelligence that is equally as strong as anyone's math intelligence. And just as s math problem be correct, our eyes can be perfect with pool in ways that math will likely never underdtand, but I am hopeful that the right mind can come along properly do the math.

Stan Shuffett

I watched your DVD several times and, while there was some good stuff, when it came to deploying your system there were a lot of components that were left pretty much, for lack of a better word, fuzzy. From my review:

#####
Sometimes the pivot is obvious; sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; bridge length -- pick one; amount of pivot -- till it looks right; back hand English can be used with gay abandon, to a point, if you pivot just so; and, according to the DVD, of course you can use the systems for everything from the lag shot to five ball combo kick banks (just kidding on that last one, but just barely).

IOW, if you work with it long enough you can make it work, but only because you’ve played with it so long that you eventually make all the necessary intuitive adjustments for any kind of success. Oh yes, and it seems that if you get outside the realm of a minimal use of English, to “get the cue ball off the object ball,” you are, once again, on your own. There is a very quick screen that does come up to mention (almost in passing), that English can be important for positional play. Who knew?
###

PJ and others are not being overly demanding in pointing out your system has huge, gaping holes. And it's not even a matter of "perfect language" nor "perfect math." It is a matter of insufficient instruction for someone to use your system so that they aren't left to guess and fill in a lot of blanks on their own.

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyA]

I'm not looking for the math, Stan. I think I understand how the method works. But I'll certainly admit that I have not yet acquired enough knowledge (through experience) to choose the proper eye positions to play as proficiently as I would like to with the method.



Indeed! I'm grateful for what you have done. As I said a year ago: "I was a student of CTE long before the DVD came out, and what was available was pretty poor. A lot of people who tried to learn it from Hal Houle were left mystified or deemed it geometrically flawed and unworkable. Hal's instructions, at least to many people, were simply: sight center to edge, offset the stick inside or outside depending on thickness of cut needed, and pivot to center. That simple prescription is full of holes, and many of us were unable to add enough meat to the bones to make it into a usable method.

Stan was one of those students who went to see Hal. But Stan was intrigued enough to stick with it until he was able to give it some structure and make it a much more usable method. Stan's specification of secondary sighting lines and specific pivot lengths (for manual CTE) elevates the method to something that is now useful to many more people."

While I have benfited greatly from manual CTE/Pro1, the automated version of Pro1 is the "Bugatti Veyron Super Sport" of all shooting systems.

 

[Banks]

While I have benfited greatly from manual CTE/Pro1, the automated version of Pro1 is the "Bugatti Veyron Super Sport" of all shooting systems.

You sure it isn't the holy grail, wrapped in the shroud of turin, blessed by Mother Theresa and sold by Donald Trump? Maybe we can put it on the cross for some to worship.

 

[scottjen26]

I watched your DVD several times and, while there was some good stuff, when it came to deploying your system there were a lot of components that were left pretty much, for lack of a better word, fuzzy. From my review:

#####
Sometimes the pivot is obvious; sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; bridge length -- pick one; amount of pivot -- till it looks right; back hand English can be used with gay abandon, to a point, if you pivot just so; and, according to the DVD, of course you can use the systems for everything from the lag shot to five ball combo kick banks (just kidding on that last one, but just barely).

IOW, if you work with it long enough you can make it work, but only because you’ve played with it so long that you eventually make all the necessary intuitive adjustments for any kind of success. Oh yes, and it seems that if you get outside the realm of a minimal use of English, to “get the cue ball off the object ball,” you are, once again, on your own. There is a very quick screen that does come up to mention (almost in passing), that English can be important for positional play. Who knew?
###

...
Lou Figueroa

Funny. Some of these statements are just plain wrong or you clearly didn't understand the DVD:

- The obvious and non-obvious pivots were meant to show shots that are in the transition areas and how sometimes when one pivot doesn't look quite right the other will. It's very rare, and "obvious" if you play with the system for any length of time on the table. Maybe it could have been described differently, but the info is there for a reason

- Body turn is done when simulating a left pivot, no body turn when simulating a right pivot. Pretty "obvious" in the DVD

- Bridge length is only a concern when performing the manual version, if using Pro1 (as JoeyA says the "Bugatti" version of the system), you can use any bridge length. Mine is anywere from 10" - 12", longer on certain shots, and I have no issues, nor do I have issues when I have to shorten up or jack up over a ball

- The section on BHE was a brief intro showing that you should first pivot to center then pivot for the BHE, essentially letting people know not to shortcut the process. You have to adjust for english with this system like any other, whatever your preferred method

- The system DOES work for pretty much everything. I use it for all cut shots, to line up on the break (not always, but when it goes astray I do), and banks. I don't use it on kicks or combos, I think only a few examples are shown on the DVD but that is obviously not it's primary focus


I can nit pick almost any instructional DVD I've ever seen, and very rarely are they perfect. If Stan does a second version I know some additional things will be added based on feedback he's received. I've seen a few videos lately that have gotten great reviews and are masterfully produced but don't contain any useful information for decent players - to me, Stan's gave me (and others) the ability to learn CTE Pro 1 from the one who developed it without having to travel there to get a lesson. Between the DVD and all of the extra information I received from people here as well as Stan himself I certainly got enough to be able to understand and use the system fully.

Scott

 

[scottjen26]

No. But the "debate" is about whether it eliminates feel.

pj
chgo

That's a tough one. I can follow a set of prescibed instructions and end up on the correct shot line for a wide variety of shots. At no point in time am I making adjustments in between defined points because I got close but not quite there. I look at the shot as I described, when I get down and pivot I'm on the line, I don't even have to think about it. Obviously if I'm using a ton of english, kicking, shooting a combo, safe, etc. I typically am just shooting those shots by feel and experience or using systems appropriate to the task (kicking systems etc.).

There might be feel involved in how you visualize the shot, and learning to move into the shot in a consistent manner, but again I think that's no different than the feel required and obtained through experience with any other shooting method. I'm sure you don't think you are "feeling" your way into the ghost ball, even though I was never very good at seeing that I'm sure for you and others that point in space is as rock solid as anything. But you have to visualize that spot correctly based on experience etc., just like we have to visualize the lines correctly through experience.

Do I sometimes adjust? Sure. There are times where I got sloppy getting down on the shot - same thing happens with ghost ball, you move into the shot but do something funny, turn your foot more, get your elbow in too far, etc., and you end up not pointing where you intended. If you're close, you make a minor adjustment to line up right to where your eyes tell you are on the line again, if not you get up and start over. Same with CTE Pro 1.

I also adjust when using english, or when using certain speeds to handle CIT or other effects. But again, that's the same as any other aiming method.

I know it becomes a he said - she said thing, but I and many others have said that we are NOT making unconscious adjustments to get on the shot line, and I firmly believe I don't. And most of us who post about using this are at least fairly decent players who should know. If we are all delusional, then this is the best magic sh!t ever!!

Scott

 

[cookie man]

At Large and Dr. Dave and Pj want perfect language to desribe a visual task. Perfect math is wanted as well.

Well, pool is a visual game followed by physical actions.
Math and words do not always match up perfectly for those areas.

A perfect set of words and math does not exist for our game at this time. I am confident that one day the math can surface.

Having said that, i used words, diagrams, charts, numbers, verbal explanations and physical demonstrations on my DVD of how to REALLY see cb ob relationships and how many, many pros move into their shot lines. This is stuff that has never been taught before.

Was it all perfect? NO, but I know that I have made avaiable an extremely accurate, objective shooting system.

My goal was to bypass words and math.CTE PRO ONE can take any determined student straight to the nitty gritty of what occurs with high level visual and physical performance.

My study and work has been long and tough and I believe it to be worthwhile.

My intentions with my video were to givie aspiring learners of CTE a tool to allow them to start right now with correctness in their visual and physical techniques.

So, make connections and acquire initial experiences and only then will you truly see and understand what CTE PRO ONE is all about.

If you are looking for perfection in word choice and a perfect math formula for CTE PRO ONE, then perhaps you may just Continue to spin your wheels.

Our eyes possess an intelligence that is equally as strong as anyone's math intelligence. And just as s math problem be correct, our eyes can be perfect with pool in ways that math will likely never underdtand, but I am hopeful that the right mind can come along properly do the math.

Stan Shuffett

Stan, your hard work and attention to detail, both in developing pro-one and teaching it is more than worthwhile. You have changed the game of pool for a lot of us, for the better.
Thanks again, Dave Stem

 

[champ2107]

...........................

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Those that have learned CTE may tell you (from their experience with the system) that they do not guess, or make manual adjustments.

I wouldn't argue with them. Guessing and making manual adjustments are conscious acts - feel is subconscious.

We know the system works if you give it an honest try.

We know it works for some. Others have reported they couldn't work with it.

Will we be able to crack open all the inner workings and learn something new from it?

I think it's pretty much cracked - and I think there's something to learn beyond these systems.

pj
chgo

 

[champ2107]

you more confused now PJ then you ever have been about cte .... but i will bite and ask what has been cracked? or are you just giving up because you cant figure it out?

 

[champ2107]

.........................

 

[Slide Rule]

JB, I'm flattered that you opted to take me off your Ignore list.

I personally don't care what aiming system someone decides to use. But I do care when forum bullies like you engage in ad hominem attacks on other posters, call them names and insult them. You seem to have forgotten that just two weeks ago, in another thread about leather, in just one posting you called a very prominent poster an idiot, stupid and a dog. Why you haven't been tossed by now is beyond comprehension.

Have a nice day.

I am sure JB enjoyed your slipping it to him again.

:grin: :grin:

 

[JoeyA]

You sure it isn't the holy grail, wrapped in the shroud of turin, blessed by Mother Theresa and sold by Donald Trump? Maybe we can put it on the cross for some to worship.

No, while most of those things you mentioned require faith, CTE/Pro1 simply requires and open mind and a willingness to learn how to use effectively to improve your game.