Nice drawing Mr. Johnson, well done!!!
When your tip moves at an angle across the shot line to compensate for squirt, the net force applied to the CB ends up being parallel with the shot line because of squirt - we angle the tip's path purposely to make this happen. The direction of this force (parallel with the shot line), not the stick's actual angle, determines how far from center we're hitting and therefore how much spin we're creating....if you hit the same spot on the cue ball from two different directions/angles, one of them is going to be closer to the edge of the cue ball (when looking at it down the line of the cue/direction the cue is traveling) and will therefore impart more spin.
I don't think it matters much whether we say there are 3 tips or 1.5 tips within the range of offsets - so long as however many tips are possible, they describe common fractions of maximum English. I like using thirds; you might like fourths - but the universal constant (our "common language") is the fraction/percentage of maximum English that can be applied. That also has the advantage of focusing on the actual tip/ball contact patch (as opposed to movements of the stick).
pj
chgo
This means that any "swiping" stroke can be duplicated without swiping, by pivoting first and then stroking straight along the pivoted cue angle.
pj
chgo
Yes, that's why I prefer to think in terms of actual contact points and fractions of maximum English. Then I just adapt common "tips" terminology to describe the fractions.I also think the dome on your tip is a factor in 'tips of english'.....I use a bit rounder than a dime....the part of the tip that contacts the cue ball is closer to the tip center than those that use the nickel shape.
Results will vary....soft tips grab more...in my experience.Maybe I'm missing something,
but it seems it should be easy enough to find what a personal definition should be....
Shoot the cueball from a diamond on the long rail to the opposite diamond on the other long rail
with what you consider 1 tip of english.
From everything I've ever heard, the ball should come back to one diamond from where it started.
Do the same shooting from the short rail.
The ball should come back to two diamonds from where it started.
For me, it is one full width of the ferrule/tip = one tip english.
This is using an 11.75 mm tip with a dime radius.
.
Great minds...I determine tip position by the amount of effect across the width of the table.
1 Tip = 1 diamond effect
2 Tips = 2 diamonds
3 tips = 3 diamonds.
Down the length of the table the effect is doubled.
IMO if effect isn't measured then consistency is out the window. I would prefer to use diamonds rather than tips but few would understand that either.
Calibrating Sidespin - 09-16-2012, 08:29 PM
How much sidespin (offset from CB center) produces how much "action"? Here's the answer for the tables and balls I play with at my local pool room:
Using a Centennial ball's stripe to show the miscue limits on either side, I hit many sidespin shots and checked chalkmarks afterwards (the chalkmarks are too faint to see in the pics, but they're under the Xs).
For the cloth/ball conditions at my local pool room, the CB rebounds about 1 diamond wider for each 3/16" (1/3) of tip offset, up to 9/16" (3/3) at the miscue limit. This is true whether I'm hitting hard or soft and whether I'm aiming straight across the table or at an angle (the amount of added angle is 1 diamond per 3/16" offset) .
pj
chgo
Excellent illustration PJ. FYI, I've added it (with a link) to the "tip" and percentage of english resource page, which includes illustrations of the many different ways people interpret "tips of english." I personally prefer using "percentage english" instead of "tips," which goes from 0% at center-ball to 100% at the miscue limit (e.g., 50% english is 1/2 of maximum). I think this is the clearest definition, and it doesn't vary with tip size and shape or with how people interpret "tips."How much is a "tip" of English? To ask another way: how many tips of English can be applied without miscuing?
I like to think it's 3 tips maximum. That means 1 tip = 1/3 of maximum, which is what you get when you move the shaft's edge to center ball (a common "1st step" for English).
The pics below show the full range of English divided into thirds (white bullseyes) and a 13mm shaft contacting the CB at each of the thirds. Notice that for maximum English the tip's contact patch (about 3mm) extends slightly beyond the tip's edge (this assumes a nickel curvature).
pj
chgo
View attachment 68968
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.
This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?
(honest question, no disrespect here)
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.
This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?
(honest question, no disrespect here)
I determine tip position by the amount of effect across the width of the table.
1 Tip = 1 diamond effect
2 Tips = 2 diamonds
3 tips = 3 diamonds.
Down the length of the table the effect is doubled.
IMO if effect isn't measured then consistency is out the window. I would prefer to use diamonds rather than tips but few would understand that either.
Edit: Really shouldn't say it that way. Few talk about effect. Its easy to understand when pointed out.
This echos my thoughts plus even me telling someone how much tip of English I use does not mean that they will get the same amount of spin is I do.
The stroke is so critical in getting spin on the ball.
Saying a cue is light is subjective....saying it weighs x is objective. Saying using this much tip of English will get this amount of spin is subjective because of the differences in people stroke, and cue and playing conditions.
at the risk of sounding crass, and I don't mean to at all ... I don't think about tips of english, nor did I even consider this something other than rank beginners were taught to give them an idea of how to move the CB.
This game IMO has to be a game of feel, and touch. Mechanically measuring these things is the opposite of a good thing. But, you guys play good, I'm sure ... why the concerns or thoughts of measuring english? I would have expected the question from a beginner. Do you guys that play really think about these kinds of things?
(honest question, no disrespect here)
I prefer percentages of English too. But "tips" seems to be here to stay, so I'm trying to promote the translation of one into the other by asking the question "how many 'tips' of English are there?". Since the definition of a "tip" varies (as we see in this thread), so will the answer to that question, but it at least promotes an awareness of percentages.I personally prefer using "percentage english" instead of "tips," which goes from 0% at center-ball to 100% at the miscue limit (e.g., 50% english is 1/2 of maximum). I think this is the clearest definition, and it doesn't vary with tip size and shape or with how people interpret "tips."
Regards,
Dave