I don't see any moral dilemmas here, only possibly shaky morals.
Hypothetical Question - What would you do?
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
I usually tell a weaker player, but if I were playing a pro I would not tell him. After all he is a pro and pool is serious for him and being the weaker player I would take any foul he gave me.
So, do your morals include other sports, or just billiards. In no other sport is sportsmanship included in helping your opponent beat you. Oh, you can help them get off the ground, you can say great play, you can say nice game afterwards. But, to help them win, just doesn't happen.
Sure, if I'm competing at skeet shooting, and the other guy is holding his gun stock-end out, I'm going to tell him.
Let’s draw some comparisons. Would Michael Jordan have told John Stockton to hurry across half court because he was about to run out of time? Would JJ Watt let the offense know to shift before the ball was snapped because they were in an illegal formation? Would Derek Jeter let the base runner know he missed the bag, and he better touch it before he gets out?
Nope.
Is it unethical or immoral when Aaron Rodgers rushes to snap the ball because the defense was too slow to get off the field?
I’m of the opinion that you should play this game however you want to, but questioning someone else’s morals because they stay within the rules differently is ridiculous.
I certainly don't expect much from MJ when it comes to morality.
Things get tricky with team sports, especially pro-sports with the fans and the business side.
Things also get a whole lot stickier for the pool player if he has a backer or sponsor.
I just picked a basketball player at random, MJ might be a douche. Couldn’t telll you. How about the other players in the tournament? What if your decision to help Your opponent changes who advances and who does not? Don’t know where I’m going with that, but shouldn’t the ripple effect of the decision at least be considered?
This thread reminds me of the late Tom Ferry's rules for gambling. His user name on this forum was oldhasbeen.
Two of his rules were before you start playing post up and make it clear anybody can quit whenever they want.
In his younger days he was a road player and I suspect the reason for those rules was in case the opponent figured out he was being hustled the money was already posted and Tom offered the guy a chance to quit winner before he cranked up his game thus avoiding friction.
I don't know what his speed what in his prime but in poor health with a terminal illness just a few months before he passed away he took down the Missouri state 9 ball championship. The guy who used to run that tournament out of his room in Springfield was Phil Spudich who passed away from a heart attack a couple years ago. He had some Louie Roberts and Tom Ferry stories and knew just about every pool player of note in Missouri and wasn't shy about sharing his opinion of them.
Two of his rules were before you start playing post up and make it clear anybody can quit whenever they want.
In his younger days he was a road player and I suspect the reason for those rules was in case the opponent figured out he was being hustled the money was already posted and Tom offered the guy a chance to quit winner before he cranked up his game thus avoiding friction.
I don't know what his speed what in his prime but in poor health with a terminal illness just a few months before he passed away he took down the Missouri state 9 ball championship. The guy who used to run that tournament out of his room in Springfield was Phil Spudich who passed away from a heart attack a couple years ago. He had some Louie Roberts and Tom Ferry stories and knew just about every pool player of note in Missouri and wasn't shy about sharing his opinion of them.
Let's use this as the example:
A rule exists covering the infraction. Multiple times, the rule has been in discussion and pretty much there is a given understanding of the consequences.
Some have pointed out that they got blasted for over thinking the situation, the opponent said they were looking where the ball would go.
Some would speak up and attempt to save someone from fouling, even though it wasn't in their best interest.
Others would continue to observe and allow the opponent follow through with whatever their plan was, even if we are watching and are fully aware that they are making a mistake.
My .02, a rule exists for a reason. If you saw an opponent preparing to foul in football..an illegal formation for example, you hope they get caught. You don't prevent it. In a competition, that knowledge of the rules and being prepared to hold the opponent to the agreed upon rules are the expectations.
Either play by the rules....or don't.
See you in a while.
In a friendly game, if it's really obvious I'll say something. Most any other situation, I'll keep my mouth shut out of respect. I sit there quietly until it's my turn.
I like to keep things simple, both at work and at play.
I like to keep things simple, both at work and at play.
I guess my views just differ from many others here. Here's another example - in our weekly 9-ball handicapped tournament, I personally feel it is rather lame for an "A" ranked player to attempt to 3-foul a "D" ranked player or even a weaker "C" ranked player. Even though the weaker player is getting a game or games spotted on the wire and has a legitimate chance to win the match with just a lucky shot or two, or a late game mistake by the higher skilled player, I just don't feel a strong player should resort to that tactic to beat a considerably weaker player. We still have some players that choose to do that, but I don't like seeing it.
When i fist started playing-nothing pissed me off more than having that done to me- I had near zero chance of a making the hit. I never got better than a C player but at the end of my career i was tough to 3-foul. I still consider it dirty pool for a better player to do it to a scrub especially when he has a chance to run-out. I imagine it made a few players quit the game before they really got started.
I guess the only situation I could maybe see where it would be acceptable is if the weaker player is ahead in the match and on the hill, and the balls are tied up making in nearly impossible for the "A" player to run out - even with ball-in-hand. Still, if it was a hill-hill game and it came down to that situation, I would still refuse to 3-foul out my weaker opponent to win the match. Winning in that manner is just NOT the priority to me, in that situation.
Keep in mind, this is a weekly tournament of regulars, where everybody knows everybody, and all competitors are respectful of their opponents, even though they want to win.
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How would people feel about a guy who, when in tough situations, gets down on the wrong ball hoping his opponents will interrupt to tell him, and then calls a foul on the guys for interrupting?
I don’t blame the A player at all. As long as the D players keep riding the 9 whenever possible, I’ll keep 3 fouling them.:thumbup:
Angle shooter!
So, we need a whole list of what good players can do against bad players? And when and who decides which player is good enough to take it easy? Who and when decides which players shoot badly enough they need a little pity. Man, I'd hate to be the guy that folks have to go easy on just so I have a chance to win. I'm sure he doesn't feel to good about either. Play by the rules so even low level players learn how to play safeties and get better themselves.
Played baseball (not softball) for for decades. Not one time, ever, in over 1000 games played, did a pitcher ever give me a lolly pop to hit. And our league allowed ex-pro's to play 5 years removed from playing pro. And Div 1 athletes didn't have to wait anytime to play.
And some of these guys were in their prime and they NEVER let up, and if they no hit the other team, they'd go for it. And we had a few teams in the league that were kinda weak, most of the guys were prob bench warmers in HS, no former college players, and a few guys that didn't make the HS team, but they took their lumps like men
Nobody, not one person thought the other team or just the pitcher should go easy on them. They never asked for it and never b1tched when they got smoked. I think most adults understand there are folks better then them, and they know they can't win all the time.Surely, pool players are tougher than you give them credit for.
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You're wrong. It's not an issue for a player to have to decide. A tournament director should protect the players from having to make unfair decisions like this.
In asking the question, "Should I interrupt or should I not interrupt my opponent," the TD should make it clear to the players that the answer should always be not interrupt unless the interruption is warranted by the rules. Then there would be no moral issue at all.
So, we need a whole list of what good players can do against bad players? And when and who decides which player is good enough to take it easy? Who and when decides which players shoot badly enough they need a little pity. Man, I'd hate to be the guy that folks have to go easy on just so I have a chance to win. I'm sure he doesn't feel to good about either. Play by the rules so even low level players learn how to play safeties and get better themselves.
Played baseball (not softball) for for decades. Not one time, ever, in over 1000 games played, did a pitcher ever give me a lolly pop to hit. And our league allowed ex-pro's to play 5 years removed from playing pro. And Div 1 athletes didn't have to wait anytime to play.
And some of these guys were in their prime and they NEVER let up, and if they no hit the other team, they'd go for it. And we had a few teams in the league that were kinda weak, most of the guys were prob bench warmers in HS, no former college players, and a few guys that didn't make the HS team, but they took their lumps like men
I don't get the ones that say they would inform the weaker player, but not the experienced player, that they are on the wrong ball.
WTF does the skill level or experience have to do with it? It is the most basic and primary rule in a rotation game. Nobody doesn't know it, don't understand it or forgets it. Nobody.
Yeah, I don't either. I could tell which baserunners were "weak" just by their leadoff, they way they took the lead, the way they went back to the base.
Those were the guys you could always fool when they tried a hit and run. The batter would hit a deep drive to the outfield, but I'd make it appear it was a pop up to me. He'd dart back to first so fast.... then the hitter is now on first base with the runner, and he'd finally take off for second base but he should have already scored. I don't know how I ever lived with myself