Ivory? Cue ball

[nickgeo]

Non-destructive test

Hi again,
The best non-destructive test technique is x-ray fluorescence in which the constituent elements are excited by an x-ray beam. In a series of electron orbital events, each element will re-radiate characteristic x-rays of unique and known energy. Detecting these x-rays identifies the elements present in the specimen. For ivory there will be chiefly calcium and phosphorous characteristic x-rays given off. Ivory, like all mammal bone and teeth, is composed essentially of the mineral hydroxyapatite - Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2. A minor amount of collagen and related organic compounds hold the microscopic apatite "bricks" together. Thus the expected Ca and P signals. Where do you get an XRF instrument? They are common in geology, environmental, and materials science labs. I've got 3 in my lab, including a hand-held unit the size of a cordless drill. Call your local university and see whether anyone could do the analysis - it would take about 10 seconds of exposure and less than a minute for the whole deal.
The x-rays do not alter the ivory; perhaps if you exposed it for a day there could be some color change.
Take care,
Nick

 

[Bob Jewett]

Interesting. I have a very nice ball that has a thin chip at the opposite pole than the nerve hole. The nerve hole looks as if it may have been drilled out slightly to accommodate a lathe center then filled with what might be Ebony.

This would be an interesting project to try, I have lathes and tools. There is pictures and some info on the web but if I am to try to turn the ball down it would be good to talk to someone who has experience. George Britner would be my first choice.

Check out this link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5MnjQriIuk

I think the standard method for truing an ivory billiard ball involves putting the ball into a cup-like holder that leaves half the ball exposed, but I've never seen the operation in action. You want to remove as little material as possible.

 

[fastone371]

If you are talking about a grain that looks like rings on a tree when you cut it down. They are there and center on what you called the nerve spot. I cannot get a good picture of them with my phone. And yes I do have a desire to have something valuable .

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I really hard to tell, your pictures are not quite big enough. :yikes::yikes::yikes:

There is a way to re-size them, I cant imagine anyone trying to see your pics on anything smaller than a 42" screen.

 

[Billiard Architect]

I really hard to tell, your pictures are not quite big enough. :yikes::yikes::yikes:

There is a way to re-size them, I cant imagine anyone trying to see your pics on anything smaller than a 42" screen.

Lol... sorry snapped them straight from the phone.

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[Billiard Architect]

Hi again,
The best non-destructive test technique is x-ray fluorescence in which the constituent elements are excited by an x-ray beam. In a series of electron orbital events, each element will re-radiate characteristic x-rays of unique and known energy. Detecting these x-rays identifies the elements present in the specimen. For ivory there will be chiefly calcium and phosphorous characteristic x-rays given off. Ivory, like all mammal bone and teeth, is composed essentially of the mineral hydroxyapatite - Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2. A minor amount of collagen and related organic compounds hold the microscopic apatite "bricks" together. Thus the expected Ca and P signals. Where do you get an XRF instrument? They are common in geology, environmental, and materials science labs. I've got 3 in my lab, including a hand-held unit the size of a cordless drill. Call your local university and see whether anyone could do the analysis - it would take about 10 seconds of exposure and less than a minute for the whole deal.
The x-rays do not alter the ivory; perhaps if you exposed it for a day there could be some color change.
Take care,
Nick

You know this is one of the coolest things about this sport... All walks af life play it. People like you that mess around with cool instrumentation, people like me that do server virtualization, people like Bob that are math gurus and people that are tow truck drivers, concrete pourers and con men. Gotta love it.

I will talk to eastern florida state when I get back.

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[xpatcan1]

this cue balls is almost certainly ivory, i only hesitate because of the quality of your photos.

excellent or almost new examples are still out there! I have many in my collection these are the best set.

 

[WildWing]

Lol... sorry snapped them straight from the phone.

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Let me help you a bit with your pictures. I've resized them below, should be a more viewable size for most computers.

Also I get your frustration over doubt because of the perfect grain. Having some doubt, let me clarify. It's not the perfect grain that causes doubt. It's the lack of variation of grain throughout almost the entire area of the cueball that causes the doubt. Take a good look at the cueball photo put up by xpatcan above. This is how most excellent condition ivory cueballs look, with the grain pronounced in the middle of the cueball, then getting much more faint as it approaches the "poles" of the nerve. This is normal for an elephant tusk, which provides for clean, or almost grainless ivory closer to the nerve. I've got pictures of my ivory joints if there's any doubt. The cueball you have basically has no room for clean ivory, which, in a tusk section large enough to make a cueball, I've never seen.

Then, there is the finish, mentioned by Mr. Bond. It looks like a heavy, plasticized finish, whether polyurethane, epoxy, or the two-part car finish, almost like the finish on a cue. I've never seen this on a cueball; ivory balls are not finished that way. But, this could be camera anomoly, maybe looks different in person.

There are some who are convinced beyond a doubt that your cueball is ivory; fair enough, it might be. But if that's the case, surely there must be other images of similar balls with this grain appearance. I've just never seen it.

Though I have some doubt, hope this gives a balanced view. If your cueball is indeed elephant ivory, I think it's more valuable than you can imagine. As I recall when I bought about three of these from AE Schmidt in 1978, a grade A, the best, was $55.00. Since then, inflation alone would make it a few hundred bucks, and yours is unusual enough to be more than that, if genuine. But if you have any intent on selling it with the claim that it's ivory, I think you need documented proof, not just a hunch.

Anyhow, enjoy your resized pictures.

All the best,
WW

 

[hang-the-9]

You know this is one of the coolest things about this sport... All walks af life play it. People like you that mess around with cool instrumentation, people like me that do server virtualization, people like Bob that are math gurus and people that are tow truck drivers, concrete pourers and con men. Gotta love it.

I will talk to eastern florida state when I get back.

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And like me! I can chew gum and walk at the same time just like I am doing now while.. owww! My toe! Ok, never mind...

 

[Billiard Architect]

Let me help you a bit with your pictures. I've resized them below, should be a more viewable size for most computers.

Also I get your frustration over doubt because of the perfect grain. Having some doubt, let me clarify. It's not the perfect grain that causes doubt. It's the lack of variation of grain throughout almost the entire area of the cueball that causes the doubt. Take a good look at the cueball photo put up by xpatcan above. This is how most excellent condition ivory cueballs look, with the grain pronounced in the middle of the cueball, then getting much more faint as it approaches the "poles" of the nerve. This is normal for an elephant tusk, which provides for clean, or almost grainless ivory closer to the nerve. I've got pictures of my ivory joints if there's any doubt. The cueball you have basically has no room for clean ivory, which, in a tusk section large enough to make a cueball, I've never seen.

Then, there is the finish, mentioned by Mr. Bond. It looks like a heavy, plasticized finish, whether polyurethane, epoxy, or the two-part car finish, almost like the finish on a cue. I've never seen this on a cueball; ivory balls are not finished that way. But, this could be camera anomoly, maybe looks different in person.

There are some who are convinced beyond a doubt that your cueball is ivory; fair enough, it might be. But if that's the case, surely there must be other images of similar balls with this grain appearance. I've just never seen it.

Though I have some doubt, hope this gives a balanced view. If your cueball is indeed elephant ivory, I think it's more valuable than you can imagine. As I recall when I bought about three of these from AE Schmidt in 1978, a grade A, the best, was $55.00. Since then, inflation alone would make it a few hundred bucks, and yours is unusual enough to be more than that, if genuine. But if you have any intent on selling it with the claim that it's ivory, I think you need documented proof, not just a hunch.

Anyhow, enjoy your resized pictures.

All the best,
WW

Thanks for the resize.

I believe if someone were to spend the time trying to make it look like ivory they would have done a better job at making it look less perfect. I don't think the weight is going to tell me much because if they spent the time to get the grain and shreder lines right then weight is going to be a piece of cake.

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[Billiard Architect]

Let me help you a bit with your pictures. I've resized them below, should be a more viewable size for most computers.

Also I get your frustration over doubt because of the perfect grain. Having some doubt, let me clarify. It's not the perfect grain that causes doubt. It's the lack of variation of grain throughout almost the entire area of the cueball that causes the doubt. Take a good look at the cueball photo put up by xpatcan above. This is how most excellent condition ivory cueballs look, with the grain pronounced in the middle of the cueball, then getting much more faint as it approaches the "poles" of the nerve. This is normal for an elephant tusk, which provides for clean, or almost grainless ivory closer to the nerve. I've got pictures of my ivory joints if there's any doubt. The cueball you have basically has no room for clean ivory, which, in a tusk section large enough to make a cueball, I've never seen.

Then, there is the finish, mentioned by Mr. Bond. It looks like a heavy, plasticized finish, whether polyurethane, epoxy, or the two-part car finish, almost like the finish on a cue. I've never seen this on a cueball; ivory balls are not finished that way. But, this could be camera anomoly, maybe looks different in person.

There are some who are convinced beyond a doubt that your cueball is ivory; fair enough, it might be. But if that's the case, surely there must be other images of similar balls with this grain appearance. I've just never seen it.

Though I have some doubt, hope this gives a balanced view. If your cueball is indeed elephant ivory, I think it's more valuable than you can imagine. As I recall when I bought about three of these from AE Schmidt in 1978, a grade A, the best, was $55.00. Since then, inflation alone would make it a few hundred bucks, and yours is unusual enough to be more than that, if genuine. But if you have any intent on selling it with the claim that it's ivory, I think you need documented proof, not just a hunch.

Anyhow, enjoy your resized pictures.

All the best,
WW

As for selling it, originally was my intent to do so... but... if it is as perfect as it appears to be and if it is ivory, as you say it will be hard to put a price on it. I will do further tests on it when I return home to find out if it is genuine.

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[Billiard Architect]

Just weighed it and it is 6.3 oz

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[fastone371]

Whether or not it is an Ivory cue ball I think that pattern is really cool looking. Any idea what the value may be if it is in fact Ivory??

 

[nickgeo]

Density 1.83

Hi,
For 6.3 oz and 2.25 inch diameter I get, if I did the math correctly, a density of 1.83. Within measurement error and natural variation, that is identical to ivory at a nominal 1.85, or 1.85 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cc).
Not a formal proof, but as the lawyers would state it, "consistent with ivory."
Interestingly, if I have my sources and calculations correct, current billiard balls have a density of about 1.73, similar to pool balls. Presumably the same composition for both. Back in the day when I played 3-C with plastic and ivory, there was a noticeably heavier feel to the ivories, and they carried and held spin better.
It also is strange that your ball is of pool size, not billiard size.
BTW, if I could make fake ivory this good, I would not be making billiard balls out of it. I'd be selling it to carvers. Or, if I wanted to make billiard balls, I would be selling loads and loads of them legitimately in Europe and South America.
Take care,
Nick

 

[Billiard Architect]

Whether or not it is an Ivory cue ball I think that pattern is really cool looking. Any idea what the value may be if it is in fact Ivory??

I would love to know that myself.

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[Billiard Architect]

Hi,
For 6.3 oz and 2.25 inch diameter I get, if I did the math correctly, a density of 1.83. Within measurement error and natural variation, that is identical to ivory at a nominal 1.85, or 1.85 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cc).
Not a formal proof, but as the lawyers would state it, "consistent with ivory."
Interestingly, if I have my sources and calculations correct, current billiard balls have a density of about 1.73, similar to pool balls. Presumably the same composition for both. Back in the day when I played 3-C with plastic and ivory, there was a noticeably heavier feel to the ivories, and they carried and held spin better.
It also is strange that your ball is of pool size, not billiard size.
BTW, if I could make fake ivory this good, I would not be making billiard balls out of it. I'd be selling it to carvers. Or, if I wanted to make billiard balls, I would be selling loads and loads of them legitimately in Europe and South America.
Take care,
Nick

Awesome information! I think I am leaning towards my first inclination that it is ivory. Sorry WildWing I am going to have to disagree with you this time.

I weighed my red dot cue ball from my centennial set and it comes out at 5.8 oz.

I really appreciate the input and help on this from everyone. Esp those that did calculations and looked up the info for me. I don't think I will sell it as it seems to be a rare one indeed.

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[michael4]

BTW, if I could make fake ivory this good, I would not be making billiard balls out of it.

^^ this is a key issue for me, of the few people who could make a fake ivory cue ball look this good, why bother to do that?

 

[michael4]

like all mammal bone and teeth, is composed essentially of the mineral hydroxyapatite - Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2.

Nick, I was gonna post that, but you beat me to it...:grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:

 

[Cuebuddy]

Just weighed it and it is 6.3 oz

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I weighed one of my Ivory Billiard balls at 202 grams or 7.12 ounces. This ball mics at 2.390 slightly over 2 3/8ths.

 

[Billiard Architect]

I weighed one of my Ivory Billiard balls at 202 grams or 7.12 ounces. This ball mics at 2.390 slightly over 2 3/8ths.

Thanks CB.

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[WildWing]

As for selling it, originally was my intent to do so... but... if it is as perfect as it appears to be and if it is ivory, as you say it will be hard to put a price on it. I will do further tests on it when I return home to find out if it is genuine.

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It's been months. Have you done further tests?

All the best,
WW