More elbow dropping nonsense

[JoeyInCali]

I agree- the drop is the follow through, not before. That's normal for all good players who let their elbow go.

All I'm saying is when a majority of the good players do it--- it's not bad form.

I watched Parica and Davenport INTENTLY one night at Shooters, Riverside.
Both elbow droppers and shoot straight as anyone.

 

[willybang]

A straight balanced stroke is obviously important,
But controlling the wrist during the stroke is vital IMO

Especially when putting left english on the ball, many people turn
their wrist inwards and can't understand why they miss the shot!

 

[TXsouthpaw]

I just spent some time with Mike massey last week and he said he cant do his power draw strokes without his elbow drop. He said without it he wouldnt get all the follow through he needed for the shot. When it comes to stroke shots ill take his word for it.

 

[MitchAlsup]

I will venture far enough out on a limb to say that before you stroke your 1,000,000'th CB, you are likely better off 'trying' not to drop your sholder. And after 1,000,000 strokes, it probably does not mater whether you drop your sholder or not--because by then your stroke is pretty well groved.

At 6 shots a minute, 4 hours a day, it takes almost 2 full years (2.3 years if you only practice 300 days per year) to reach 1,000,000 strokes. Since most practice is closer to 2-3 shots a minute, and most people don't get 4 solid hours in a day, it takes "quite some time" before you reach this waterfall.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[JoeyInCali]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTtZqAnxyxo
Ask Ronnie.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Yeah, and McCready shoots sidearm, Busty looks like he's trying to prime a pump, go shoot like them and see how you do. I was going to explain it, but I really don't see the reason to bother replying anymore to someone that is bored, talking out their arse about something they obviously don't know about, and messing with others livliehood doing it. Shoot anyway you want to. Good luck without that natural talent to help you.:bash:

Referring to me? I was bored when I made the thread--- but talking out my ass I'm not. I stand by every word I posted. I know a lot about mechanics which is why I totally question it. I have no natural talent and I play well.

Messing with others' livelihoods??????????? Are you for REAL??? Neil, I'm gonna pretend you spent all day sniffing markers or that you were totally kidding with that one.

There's zero proof, imo, that a static elbow makes any difference when the ball is already gone (or conversely, allowing the elbow to drop when the ball is already gone). I also question how a dipping tip is a benefit to a player versus a level tip through the ball.

I'm not messing with livelihoods--- I'm looking forward to explanations, that's all. If no one can explain, then I guess I'm not the only one who's lost.

"Messing with livelihoods..." OMFG If anything said on an internet message forum can F with your job.... better diversify your income.

 

[Scottyboy716]

So I have a pretty good stroke, and occasionally I do have an elbow drop. I am working on eliminating it for consistencey reasons. I dont think that an elbow drop will effect the outcome at all (good or bad), if I (or anyone) is able to hit the cueball in the exact spot we wanted every time. It makes WAYYYYYY too much sense that the less moving parts, the more repeatable it is.

Elbow drop is extra un-needed movement. The point is to make the ball... and then get shape.

Here is a video of the straightest shooter ever, and there is ZERO elbow drop present. It just isn't needed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AENJxqR0g48

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If the forums can help the instructors income, then the reverse is true also.

Just to clarify, when instructing, you want to teach a repeatable stroke. No elbow drop is by far the easiest way to a repeatable stroke. I don't know of any of the instructors that say you absolutely should not drop the elbow AFTER contact witht he cb. But, depsite some very good players, such as Mike Massey saying the opposite, it is not necessary to drop the elbow after contact because it is doing absoulutely nothing for the stroke. So, why drop it at all? When you are learning, dropping it after contact can easily transfer to dropping it just before contact. Thus, screwing up the stroke.

You yourself have stated that the top players mostly don't drop the elbow until after contact. That is what is taught. Not dropping at all just makes it easier to learn. Once again, hence, talking out your arse on this one.:wink:

Well, we agree that it doesn't matter because the ball is gone anyways-- that's good.

What I'm saying is how can the drop affect the repeatability of the stroke if it occurs after contact? Prior to contact, a top player who drops versus one who doesn't looks identical to me.

Therefore, I can argue that going with "momentum" is more repeatable than sending your hand to your chest.

It's cool the BCA instructor program teaches not to drop - that's fine. I think it's a good thing, simple for sure. I still haven't read an explanation as to why it's more repeatable in this thread. It occurs after contact. Therefore, my guess it's just an opinion.

Please don't think I'm knocking ANY instructors. I love Scott Lee and the other guys. I'm just looking for an explanation as to why elbow dropping requires better timing and why not dropping your elbow is more repeatable.... that's all.

Sorry about the marker comment.

 

[dr_dave]

Spidey,

There have been many debates on this over the years. FYI, I have a good summary of some of the strongest arguments for not dropping the elbow here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow​

One reason (from the link):

The problem with dropping the elbow after cue ball contact (e.g., when it is not required based on shot power) is that if one's timing is a little off, the elbow might drop a little before contact, which can affect CB contact point accuracy.​

Regards,
Dave

Well, we agree that it doesn't matter because the ball is gone anyways-- that's good.

What I'm saying is how can the drop affect the repeatability of the stroke if it occurs after contact? Prior to contact, a top player who drops versus one who doesn't looks identical to me.

Therefore, I can argue that going with "momentum" is more repeatable than sending your hand to your chest.

It's cool the BCA instructor program teaches not to drop - that's fine. I think it's a good thing, simple for sure. I still haven't read an explanation as to why it's more repeatable in this thread. It occurs after contact. Therefore, my guess it's just an opinion.

Please don't think I'm knocking ANY instructors. I love Scott Lee and the other guys. I'm just looking for an explanation as to why elbow dropping requires better timing and why not dropping your elbow is more repeatable.... that's all.

Sorry about the marker comment.

 

[ShootingArts]

This point is of interest

I think pool teachers incorrectly focus on the important on a static upper arm. Nearly every pro I watch drives their arm through the shot. Not saying a static elbow is good/bad - but a dynamic elbow isn't bad 100%.

For every top pro someone shows me with a totally static elbow, I can show them 5 who launch their arm through the shot. I just don't think it matters the slightest bit. All that matters is where your tip is an inch before the CB and how it travels from there to contact.

Mike Davis SWORE to me about 8 years ago the proper pendulum point was from the shoulder because the larger muscle groups allowed for a straighter stroke (and allowing gravity to pull your stroke down straight). People might look at him like he's the Lee Trevino of the pool world, but I don't think he's as crazy as people might think.

It's not a "well, how many people play like Mike"---- it's how many GOOD players DON'T do what he does? The answer is-- a "majority" of good players drop their elbow. Therefore, I don't think it's bad form - it's standard form.

Dave,

I don't know of any SPF instructor that condemns elbow drop after the cue ball is hit. However Mike Davis has an excellent point about body mechanics. Big muscles moving slowly or through a small range of motion as a general statement are easier to control precisely than small muscles moving fast or through a large range of motion.

In theory the best pool stroke would be primarily shoulder movement with just enough movement in the elbow, wrist, and fingers to straighten out the arc of the movement from the shoulder which should be obvious is a longer radius arc than the arc created from movement at the elbow with the elbow held as stationary as possible with a "locked shoulder".

Several things concerning the typical pool stance and stroke are in disagreement with good body mechanics as they relate to any other sport I know of. This leads me to suspect that one day folks will be laughing at our "quaint" shooting style we used back in this day.

Interesting subject but I agree it has been beaten to death and I'm not trying to change other people's opinions anyway. One reason I have been a successful competitor in many areas is that I have never locked into the thought there is only one way to succeed. Some are better than others, some are a shorter path. I suspect that some of the tougher paths might actually be better paths though. Using muscle instead of cue stick weight to drive the cue ball gives more control. Using stick weight to do it is far easier and what 99% of all players do though. Easier to learn, easier to do up to a certain level. However at some level you start fighting the weight of the cue stick on some shots or you go to a lighter cue.

It is a long cold walk outside of the conventional to learn many of these things for yourself and then most won't believe. That is good from a competitor's standpoint, frustrating when you are trying to help other people.

Hu

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spidey,

There have been many debates on this over the years. FYI, I have a good summary of some of the strongest arguments for not dropping the elbow here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/stroke.html#elbow​

One reason (from the link):

The problem with dropping the elbow after cue ball contact (e.g., when it is not required based on shot power) is that if one's timing is a little off, the elbow might drop a little before contact, which can affect CB contact point accuracy.​

Regards,
Dave

If it occurs after contact, timing is a moot point. If you don't hit the CB where you want-- the drop wasn't a factor.

You're implying good players who drop also drop before contact. I don't think it's the case. You might have bad players who drop before contact--- but, conversely, you also have perfect pendulum players who suck and don't hit the CB where they want either.

I 10000% agree dropping before contact is mega-bad. It also looks goofy as hell.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Dave,

I don't know of any SPF instructor that condemns elbow drop after the cue ball is hit. However Mike Davis has an excellent point about body mechanics. Big muscles moving slowly or through a small range of motion as a general statement are easier to control precisely than small muscles moving fast or through a large range of motion.

In theory the best pool stroke would be primarily shoulder movement with just enough movement in the elbow, wrist, and fingers to straighten out the arc of the movement from the shoulder which should be obvious is a longer radius arc than the arc created from movement at the elbow with the elbow held as stationary as possible with a "locked shoulder".

Several things concerning the typical pool stance and stroke are in disagreement with good body mechanics as they relate to any other sport I know of. This leads me to suspect that one day folks will be laughing at our "quaint" shooting style we used back in this day.

Interesting subject but I agree it has been beaten to death and I'm not trying to change other people's opinions anyway. One reason I have been a successful competitor in many areas is that I have never locked into the thought there is only one way to succeed. Some are better than others, some are a shorter path. I suspect that some of the tougher paths might actually be better paths though. Using muscle instead of cue stick weight to drive the cue ball gives more control. Using stick weight to do it is far easier and what 99% of all players do though. Easier to learn, easier to do up to a certain level. However at some level you start fighting the weight of the cue stick on some shots or you go to a lighter cue.

It is a long cold walk outside of the conventional to learn many of these things for yourself and then most won't believe. That is good from a competitor's standpoint, frustrating when you are trying to help other people.

Hu

Wow good post

 

[Underclocked]

One thing I find a bit monotonous with watching snooker player videos is the players' consistency of form. Granted that it is a good form but the flair of individual style is almost absent. I believe each person must find their own method of play that works best for them (and probably only them). We are all built differently and our minds communicate with our bodies differently. To try to fit every player into one method, one stance, one arm movement, one method of aim... is a sure way to inhibit natural talent.

If you have that natural talent, find your own "fit" and then don't worry about the next guy. If you have none, listen closely to the instructor that is teaching you to be a mechanic.

 

[pooltchr]

Big muscles moving slowly or through a small range of motion as a general statement are easier to control precisely than small muscles moving fast or through a large range of motion.


Hu

I'm not sure this is completely true. When you sign your name, is it easier, or more controlled to move the pen from up in your shoulder, using the big muscles, or using the smaller muscles in the wrist and fingers?

Steve

 

[dr_dave]

The problem with dropping the elbow after cue ball contact (e.g., when it is not required based on shot power) is that if one's timing is a little off, the elbow might drop a little before contact, which can affect CB contact point accuracy.

If it occurs after contact, timing is a moot point.

Agreed.

If you don't hit the CB where you want-- the drop wasn't a factor.

Not always true. Haven't you seen people get poor draw because they drop their elbow before tip contact, and they end up hitting the CB higher than they thought they did? Top players might not do this often, but this is certainly a common problem for mere mortals. People tend to drop their elbows more when trying to get more power, and sometimes this drop might occur a little early, especially if they are not good at power shots.

You're implying good players who drop also drop before contact.

That wasn't my intent.

I don't think it's the case.

Agreed.

You might have bad players who drop before contact--- but, conversely, you also have perfect pendulum players who suck and don't hit the CB where they want either.

Agreed.

I 10000% agree dropping before contact is mega-bad. It also looks goofy as hell.

I don't think it would be bad if somebody could do it and never miss. There are many pros that have far-from-"textbook"-mechanics and do amazingly well.

Regards,
Dave

 

[genomachino]

Man for millions of years has thrown spears at animals for food and people for protection. They probably never thought about their form but only about they end result whether it be for food or survival. The more they throw the spear the more they get the body to coordinate what the eyes are seeing. So the hunters that hunt everyday get better and better.

THINK ABOUT IT?

Man is still throwing spears but we just throw them underhand and call it pool. The players that play all the time get better at coordinating the body to what the eyes are seeing. For some pool players it is survival just like in the old days like the spears.

I really don't think personally that it makes a hill of beans if your elbow drops. But it is beneficial on some shots to drop the elbow and is actually neccessary.

If somebody told me to keep my elbow up on a particular shot that I knew I had to drop it on to excecute it properly I would definitely ignore the advice.
If they persisted I would have them show me. Just what I thought?

Look at all the pros out there. Some shots it is absolutely neccessary to drop the elbow.

Some of the best players in the world look like an oil rig pumping oil. I think you all know where this little country is. I think it's called the Phillipines.

As Paul harvey used to always say.

NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY.............

 

[Cornerman]

One thing I find a bit monotonous with watching snooker player videos is the players' consistency of form. Granted that it is a good form but the flair of individual style is almost absent. .

Not for nothing but, ... "snooker players consistency of form" doesn't encompass all snooker players. They all don't look like Steve Davis. I'm not sure why that isn't obvious. Stephen Hendry for example is very different. Maybe cuz he's Scottish?

And Ronnie drops his elbow (as does Hendry). We've already shown that one before in other death-beaten posts.

Fred

 

[iusedtoberich]

Just a question...

To me it looks like the Mike Sigel video Spider posted has Mike dropping his elbow as soon as his final forward swing starts, as opposed to once contact is made with the cueball.

Does it look like this to anyone else?