More elbow dropping nonsense

[Wolven]

Haven't you seen people get poor draw because they drop their elbow before tip contact, and they end up hitting the CB higher than they thought they did?

This is caused by combination of too early elbow drop and pushing down on the cue with the back part of the grip hand.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Thanks, Dr. Dave.

Now I'm confused. If there's nothing wrong with dropping the elbow after contact (timing is moot), why was there a lot of controversy about it? I remember Lee Brett was torched for suggesting it.

For me, it's a natural motion; whereas pulling my hand to my chest is not. I wanna fire my hand straight down the stroking line (the elbow has to come with it) - but that's just me.

If the non-drop teachings is to simplify learning for beginners - I get it and understand.

 

[dr_dave]

Haven't you seen people get poor draw because they drop their elbow before tip contact, and they end up hitting the CB higher than they thought they did?

This is caused by combination of too early elbow drop and pushing down on the cue with the back part of the grip hand.

Many people also tend to tighten their grip during a power or draw stroke. This tends to lower the tip, which can cause miscue "scoops."

I guess the secret to success for novice hackers is to drop their elbow and tighten their grip just the right amounts, where each effect cancels the other, so the tip ends up where they want on the CB. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks, Dr. Dave.

Now I'm confused. If there's nothing wrong with dropping the elbow after contact (timing is moot), why was there a lot of controversy about it?

I don't think there should be a lot of controversy about this either. There is nothing wrong at all with dropping the elbow after CB contact. There is also nothing wrong with not dropping the elbow, as long as it is comfortable for an individual. Now, some people that have trouble with dropping their elbow a little early sometimes (for any reason) might benefit from keeping the elbow still during the stroke. But again, this is an individual thing, and it doesn't apply to top players who don't usually have issues like this.

If the non-drop teachings is to simplify learning for beginners - I get it and understand.

Agreed. I think most novice players are more consistent if they keep the elbow still.

Regards,
Dave

 

[pdcue]

So I have a pretty good stroke, and occasionally I do have an elbow drop. I am working on eliminating it for consistencey reasons. I dont think that an elbow drop will effect the outcome at all (good or bad), if I (or anyone) is able to hit the cueball in the exact spot we wanted every time. It makes WAYYYYYY too much sense that the less moving parts, the more repeatable it is.

Elbow drop is extra un-needed movement. The point is to make the ball... and then get shape.

Here is a video of the straightest shooter ever, and there is ZERO elbow drop present. It just isn't needed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AENJxqR0g48

This is the typical pool player argument, not just wrong, but based on
zero data.
The short version is:
if this concept were valid, the 'best' way to shoot a free throw
would be to put your hand against your chest and shove your hand
straight forward. Try that sometime.

Dale

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm not sure this is completely true. When you sign your name, is it easier, or more controlled to move the pen from up in your shoulder, using the big muscles, or using the smaller muscles in the wrist and fingers?

Steve

Steve,

Always exceptions, that is why I said "as a general statement". However if you were not allowed to touch what you were writing on with anything but the point of the pen you might find that with practice both ways you preferred using larger muscles for control. The big advantage to writing with your fingers is bracing your hand on the writing surface. I tried my hand at pinstriping many years ago with a special little brush. One of the tricks was to use your elbow and shoulder more for smoothly flowing designs. Watch an old sign painter painting script with a brush sometime: What does he mostly use to guide the brush?

Another example comes from shooting pistols. At peak speed I can shoot about four shots a second accurately, moving from target to target. I do that by using the big muscles in my legs and torso. I can't begin to have that kind of control using my wrists to move from target to target. Same thing wing shooting with a shotgun. Learning to use the big muscles makes you a much smoother better shooter.

Hu

 

[RD3P]

people drop there elbow because its natural...when swinging a pool cue....

if your stiff as a board while playing thats not good....because your not letting out your natural stroke.... elbow dropmight be bad for some.... but most drop their elbow.... i dont know anybody that plays a whole game with Textbook mechanics on every shot....its just not possible...
the elbow drop is a feel thing....without it certain shots dont feel right.

i agree with the post about Masse saying he cant get the english whithout it(i would think dropping your elbow lengthens the followthou).....he probably snaps is wrist too.

 

[3andstop]

I agree- the drop is the follow through, not before. That's normal for all good players who let their elbow go.

All I'm saying is when a majority of the good players do it--- it's not bad form.

I'll qualify what I'm about to say by saying .. "what the hell do I know". Then I'll say, I agree with you completely.

I think dropping your elbow some on follow through allows for a more natural follow through.

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

dave,

i don't know of any spf instructor that condemns elbow drop after the cue ball is hit. However mike davis has an excellent point about body mechanics. Big muscles moving slowly or through a small range of motion as a general statement are easier to control precisely than small muscles moving fast or through a large range of motion.

In theory the best pool stroke would be primarily shoulder movement with just enough movement in the elbow, wrist, and fingers to straighten out the arc of the movement from the shoulder which should be obvious is a longer radius arc than the arc created from movement at the elbow with the elbow held as stationary as possible with a "locked shoulder".

Several things concerning the typical pool stance and stroke are in disagreement with good body mechanics as they relate to any other sport i know of. This leads me to suspect that one day folks will be laughing at our "quaint" shooting style we used back in this day.

Interesting subject but i agree it has been beaten to death and i'm not trying to change other people's opinions anyway. One reason i have been a successful competitor in many areas is that i have never locked into the thought there is only one way to succeed. Some are better than others, some are a shorter path. I suspect that some of the tougher paths might actually be better paths though. Using muscle instead of cue stick weight to drive the cue ball gives more control. Using stick weight to do it is far easier and what 99% of all players do though. Easier to learn, easier to do up to a certain level. However at some level you start fighting the weight of the cue stick on some shots or you go to a lighter cue.

It is a long cold walk outside of the conventional to learn many of these things for yourself and then most won't believe. That is good from a competitor's standpoint, frustrating when you are trying to help other people.

Hu

wow good post

tap* fuxing tap* tap*

I gotta "spread it around" before I can give you the green pat on the back Hu. Well deserved though.

 

[pdcue]

Or maybe we DO know exactly what we're talking about, and have the scientific evidence to back it up. This has been hashed and rehashed to death here. The point is this...MOST pros who have an elbow drop, move the elbow down AFTER contact with the CB. They have superb timing which allows them to still accurately contact the CB (which is the biggest argument against doing it). The vast majority of amateur players have no such ability, nor can they duplicate the pro's timing. Here's the ultimate truth...there are probably a dozen ways to skin a cat, but there are a couple that are a LOT easier to be accurate and repeatable. They both start with a sharp knife! Whether you agree or not, the truth is it's just simpler to develop an accurate and repeatable stroke WITHOUT the elbow movement (which does nothing to provide anything "extra" to the stroke). Most players wanting to improve their stroke look for a valid way to learn something repeatable and sustainable. It is hard work, but the rewards in the long run are worth it for most players who seek quality instruction.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Exactly what scientific proof would that be?
So far all I have ever seen is pontification.

As I have stated before, I could care less about what is the fastest
way to teach Suzy how to run 4 balls instead of 3.

Watch 80% - 90% of the top Straight Pool players shoot break shots,
then report back to the group.

Dale<who has seen more than a few>

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I don't think there is anything with dropping your elbow a bit. As long as your shoulder stays in the same place.

 

[Cameron Smith]

The primary goal here is to finish your stroke. In order to get the most out of your stroke, you need to contact the cue ball at, or close to, peak velocity. This is why the follow through is so important, stopping at the cue ball or just after it means you are slowing the cue down before you've struck the ball. This can also lead to other issues too.

Now, if you can produce the neccessary follow through without dropping your elbow after contact, then more power to you. But in general, it seems somewhat lazy to not drop the elbow only because it's hard to time. The golf swing seems mighty difficult too, maybe I should just keep my arms straight.

 

[pooltchr]

Now, if you can produce the neccessary follow through without dropping your elbow after contact, then more power to you.
.

How much is "necessary" follow through?

Steve

 

[JB Cases]

Do it like Jimmy White http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_fE-pvT084&feature=related

 

[Falcon Eddie]

I have read all your thoughts on this thread. I find it very interesting the many pros and cons. I have one thought...there are two martial art masters of equal abilities . One can deliver 5 punch combos perfectly, the other master 2. Which is greater ? The one that can do the most with the least amount of energy. Economy of motion. Do just what is needed , nothing more.

 

[3RAILKICK]

My question is this.

Note: I have only questions/no answers.

I see players who play very well -shoot with a pure pendulum stroke. They grip the cue such that the tip is at the ball with the hand well forward of the bottom of the pendulum arc. Watched from the side- the tip dips as it ends it's approach to the cb. At the end of the stroke- the grip rises as does the butt of the stick since the grip is now traveling the upward arc of the pendulum path. OK. The warm up strokes repeat this action consistently, so the delivery stroke is accurate- although with a slight downward bias to the follow through.

In general- if the tip is at the cb at the true bottom of the arc-won't the follow through be somewhat downward? That's probably OK, right?

So- If as you get to the bottom of the arc (tip at cb)-you extend the bottom of the arc horizontally in the direction of the cb- by moving the elbow forward as it drops (shoulder stays at the same position) so the bottom of the stroke (fairly level ) says 'bottomed out" and level longer. That' probably a good thing. right?

My question is- if my visualization of what happens to keep the stroke level longer is either or neither right or wrong -but works for me--

will the 'stroke police' be calling on me?

More than one way to get to Burbank.

3railkick

I used to care

 

[alstl]

Elbow drop simply means you engaged your shoulder, a socket joint, which can introduce side to side movement to your stroke. Based on what I learned, taught by a knowledgeable instructor, elbow drop after the follow through isn't an issue. So don't obsess over it. As Bruce Lee once said, Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.

Exactly my point. What happens after contact with the cue ball is meaningless.

 

[RD3P]

lol....

Jimmy White "Bruce Lee'd" those last two shots.

that would have been even better if he would have dogged one.

also he looked like he had his fair share of Cocaine in his system.

 

[Scott Lee]

Dale...You could come to pool school, and you'd get the proof you're looking for. Trouble is you wouldn't believe it, because you already KNOW IT ALL. Good students don't let what they already know get in the way of learning something new. Information is just that...a tool to be used however it best suits the individual. We don't 'pontificate', nor do we preach. We even tell our students that if you don't like that style of movement, don't use it. Most choose to, because they clearly understand the long and short term benefits.

While you personally may not care what the the easiest, most efficient way to develop an accurate, repeatable and sustainable stroke is, most people who are seriously looking to improve their game do. That's who we're looking to help.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Exactly what scientific proof would that be?
So far all I have ever seen is pontification.

As I have stated before, I could care less about what is the fastest
way to teach Suzy how to run 4 balls instead of 3.

Dale<who has seen more than a few>

 

[Cameron Smith]

How much is "necessary" follow through?

Steve

Whatever it takes to finish your stroke depending on the speed you use.

I don't know exactly how long my follow through is, but on power shots I think I go through about 6 inches. My elbow doesn't drop much, just roughly an arm width.