More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
No Elbow Drop
Efrens elbow barely moves, and nobody, not any instructor on here would suggest or try to correct anyone with the little movement that Efren has. Elbow drop in my mind is a dramatic drop, not a few inches.
Plus, if you look at the video, on the few shots he drops/lowers his elbow a few inches, his elbow does not drop as much as his elbow is lowering/getting on a vertical plane, because he starts his elbow a little high.
But his stoke is pure pendulum, and at tip/contact with cue ball, his elbow is straight/level and his arm is perpendicular to the cue. This is a very nice level stroke. This is a pure pendulum stroke with a little Efren style added. Correct me if I"m wrong, but I don't believe any of the instructors here would even attempt to correct this stroke even if he was some APA SL4 walking in the door for lessons. The thought would be "hey, that's pretty good, let's concentrate on something else"..
Efrens elbow barely moves, and nobody, not any instructor on here would suggest or try to correct anyone with the little movement that Efren has. Elbow drop in my mind is a dramatic drop, not a few inches.
Plus, if you look at the video, on the few shots he drops/lowers his elbow a few inches, his elbow does not drop as much as his elbow is lowering/getting on a vertical plane, because he starts his elbow a little high.
But his stoke is pure pendulum, and at tip/contact with cue ball, his elbow is straight/level and his arm is perpendicular to the cue. This is a very nice level stroke. This is a pure pendulum stroke with a little Efren style added. Correct me if I"m wrong, but I don't believe any of the instructors here would even attempt to correct this stroke even if he was some APA SL4 walking in the door for lessons. The thought would be "hey, that's pretty good, let's concentrate on something else"..
Yes.
It was a theoretical analysis inspired by experimental data.
The cue has momentum (mass X speed) at impact; but with a typical pendulum stroke, no force is being applied by the grip at CB contact. The cue has already reached its top speed and is not accelerating at the point of contact, because the grip is no longer creating forward force at CB contact (force = mass X acceleration).
This statement applies any time the cue "accelerates into the ball." This is possible with any style of stroke, but it is probably more common with people who drop their elbow before CB contact.
Theory. But the theory on this is very clear and straightforward (and makes sense).
The grip hand can do nothing significant during the 0.001 second of tip contact time, partly because the grip hand tissue is so flexible compared to the tip (even with a tight grip). Therefore, cue speed/momentum (and not cue acceleration or grip forward force) at CB contact is the only thing that really matters. If two radiacally different stroke types create the same cue speed at CB impact, the CB will respond the same way.
Again, this conclusion applies to an "accelerate into the CB" stroke. This is more typical with a drop-elbow-before-CB-contact stroke, although one can also accelerate into the ball with a pendulum stroke. I assume that by "P" you mean "pendulum" and not "piston."
Your idea of a "pendulum stroke" is apparently very different from others (including mine). A pendulum stroke can be used to create every speed from light touch to break speed (by varying the stroke length and the force/acceleration during the entire forward stroke into the ball).
Cue momentum (mass X speed) is the only real source of CB power. However, the momentum is created by all of the acceleration during the forward stroke into the CB.
No. The CB only cares about the cue speed at tip contact. The CB doesn't care how the speed is created. Nor does it care what happens after contact. This is a very common misconception ... people thinking they can "keep the tip on the ball" and "add power during tip contact." Again, the incredibly brief tip contact time, and the flexibility of the grip hand flesh prevent any significant grip action during CB contact. Now, people that accelerate all of the way into the ball will typically generat more cue speed and get more "power."
Regards,
Dave
I just realized something- I did not set up as per Joeys diagram, but as to the one below.But, I'm glad I did. As per Joeys diagram, I have 1/16" clearance for the ball without hitting the facings Good luck on anybody with that one. Especially that soft on nap cloth.
Neil,
If I read one of your previous post correct, in essence, you said that you had similar results with both styles of stroke (Pendulum and J Stroke with dropping elbow?
BTW, I like your layout better than mine for the reasons you mentioned.
JoeyA
Oh, come on, Scott. Capelle is an instructional author and probably has had far more students than most in-person instructors.
I don't think this is an accurate way to find out anything. Those who think the pendulum stroke is the mac will say they scored better that way. The others will say they scored higher with the drop.
Even if we video taped ourselves, we'd have an outcome that supports our belief (for sure).
I have a 9' GC and I bet I could record myself scoring high either way.
Even if we video taped ourselves, we'd have an outcome that supports our belief (for sure).
I have a 9' GC and I bet I could record myself scoring high either way.
i dont have a clue all the stuff in this thread.
Not sure how useful my comments are but here they are.
First Neil and others were right. If I hold my arm vertical I can feel the bicep move the arm. Guess I was having a senior moment there. So the bicep is or can be involved in the pinned elbow pendulum stroke.
However, there is always a however isn’t there. I try to contrast the pendulum stroke with the J stroke and it seems to me the best way to conceptualize this is the pendulum stroke is based on momentum. The arm is used to draw the stick back and gravity plus momentum is used to allow the stick to move forward. This would be a pure pendulum stroke. In the real world the arm (including the bicep :sorry is used to propel the cue stick.
I think that Spider’s comment that one will prove whatever they want to prove is true to the extent that one is defending a particular point of view. We all unintentionally try to support our point of view. However, there is that word again, if the intent is to try and find something and not support our opinion the results can be useful. I don’t think that I am intentionally trying to prove a point; I think that some of us are exploring an idea and the ramifications of the idea for our own game among other things. In this scenario there will be bias but not intentional bias and that needs to be considered. The ideas are subtle but could be important.
There are several comments that it matters little what happens after the tip contacts the cue ball for that short period of time and while this is true I think the issue with the J stroke is the quality of the stroke prior to contact. The J stroke may, as Neil pointed out, straighten out any minor misalignments and this may be the real benefit to the J stroke. I agree that one can get the same hit with either stroke but I think that the J stroke improves the quality of the stroke pre-contact. This is because there is additional muscle guidance (control) added to the stroke.
I think, based on experience with the stroke, that the grip changes slightly with the J stroke and that more emphasis (relative to the pendulum stroke) is placed on guidance of the swing and keeping it on line with this stroke. This may be the source of what I perceive as an improved stroke. In general, one is not letting the stick swing; one is emphasizing the guidance of the swing. I think that this is similar to what is done in other sports. As Neil pointed out, I think this emphasis may help to correct any small misalignments that creep into one’s aim.
Apparently the J stroke adds to the Pendulum stroke and this addition can be useful. In my opinion the gain in accuracy is worth pursuing at some unknown cost to the player. I also think that perhaps this is an advanced topic to be pursued after the pendulum stroke is mastered.
Acknowledging the prior discussion, it probably depends upon the ability of the player one is teaching when the J stroke should be introduced as an option for refined play. Thus, spider, my opinion has changed as this discussion has developed. Initially I thought that instructors were taking the easy way out. It probably turns out that one should learn the pendulum stroke first and can later learn to enhance it with the J stroke. I think this is worth doing.
First Neil and others were right. If I hold my arm vertical I can feel the bicep move the arm. Guess I was having a senior moment there. So the bicep is or can be involved in the pinned elbow pendulum stroke.
However, there is always a however isn’t there. I try to contrast the pendulum stroke with the J stroke and it seems to me the best way to conceptualize this is the pendulum stroke is based on momentum. The arm is used to draw the stick back and gravity plus momentum is used to allow the stick to move forward. This would be a pure pendulum stroke. In the real world the arm (including the bicep :sorry
is used to propel the cue stick.I think that Spider’s comment that one will prove whatever they want to prove is true to the extent that one is defending a particular point of view. We all unintentionally try to support our point of view. However, there is that word again, if the intent is to try and find something and not support our opinion the results can be useful. I don’t think that I am intentionally trying to prove a point; I think that some of us are exploring an idea and the ramifications of the idea for our own game among other things. In this scenario there will be bias but not intentional bias and that needs to be considered. The ideas are subtle but could be important.
There are several comments that it matters little what happens after the tip contacts the cue ball for that short period of time and while this is true I think the issue with the J stroke is the quality of the stroke prior to contact. The J stroke may, as Neil pointed out, straighten out any minor misalignments and this may be the real benefit to the J stroke. I agree that one can get the same hit with either stroke but I think that the J stroke improves the quality of the stroke pre-contact. This is because there is additional muscle guidance (control) added to the stroke.
I think, based on experience with the stroke, that the grip changes slightly with the J stroke and that more emphasis (relative to the pendulum stroke) is placed on guidance of the swing and keeping it on line with this stroke. This may be the source of what I perceive as an improved stroke. In general, one is not letting the stick swing; one is emphasizing the guidance of the swing. I think that this is similar to what is done in other sports. As Neil pointed out, I think this emphasis may help to correct any small misalignments that creep into one’s aim.
Apparently the J stroke adds to the Pendulum stroke and this addition can be useful. In my opinion the gain in accuracy is worth pursuing at some unknown cost to the player. I also think that perhaps this is an advanced topic to be pursued after the pendulum stroke is mastered.
Acknowledging the prior discussion, it probably depends upon the ability of the player one is teaching when the J stroke should be introduced as an option for refined play. Thus, spider, my opinion has changed as this discussion has developed. Initially I thought that instructors were taking the easy way out. It probably turns out that one should learn the pendulum stroke first and can later learn to enhance it with the J stroke. I think this is worth doing.
There is one variable in this test that I suspect may alter the outcome.
I have been shooting with the P stroke for about 10 years. I teach it, I practice it, and I use it.
In school, in order to demonstrate the difference, I have to make a very conscious change to what has become my natural way of shooting. So the results will probably be quite different.
When I have students trying the P stroke who have never done it before, we find that particularly with mid level players, there is an initial falling off of their accuracy until the new stroke starts to become natural. So asking a P stroker to test the J stroke is more likely to get results similar to that which Neal reported, Look for similar results to the opposite direction from the J strokers.
Steve
I have been shooting with the P stroke for about 10 years. I teach it, I practice it, and I use it.
In school, in order to demonstrate the difference, I have to make a very conscious change to what has become my natural way of shooting. So the results will probably be quite different.
When I have students trying the P stroke who have never done it before, we find that particularly with mid level players, there is an initial falling off of their accuracy until the new stroke starts to become natural. So asking a P stroker to test the J stroke is more likely to get results similar to that which Neal reported, Look for similar results to the opposite direction from the J strokers.
Steve
All stroke types create acceleration during the forward stroke. They just do so different amounts at different times. With a typical pendulum stroke, acceleration occurs during the entire forward stroke, but diminishes to zero as you approach the ball. Acceleration is the rate of change of speed. If there is no (or very little) acceleration just before CB contact, the speed is no longer increasing as the tip hits the ball. Therefore, the cue is not accelerating "into" the ball. This is typical with a pendulum stroke. The speed levels off just before CB contact. This might make it easier to control shot speed because the speed isn't changing as you hit the ball; otherwise, slight changes in stroke "timing" can result in different speeds. So there might be an advantage to not accelerate "into" the ball.
People who drop their elbow before CB contact are most likely still accelerating (the speed is still increasing) at CB contact, especially with power shots, so they are accelerating "into" the ball.
I think I was confusing you, Joe, and others with the terminology. Sorry about that. I hope this makes more sense now.
Regards,
Dave
Agreed! Even if the results weren't scewed intentionally, people will usually do better with the technique with which they are currently most comfortable (and have practiced the most).
Regards,
Dave
Well, I don't know about swooping, but I will confess to occasionally dropping my cue tip down the face of the cue ball when I've got to hit the shot softly and want to get the OB to the pocket and slow up the forward travel of the CB.
Lou Figueroa
hey!
it works for me
Every stroke is based on momentum. Muscles (and gravity to a very small extent) accelerate the cue to create cue speed (and momentum). Different cue speeds result in different CB speeds at tip impact. This is true regardless of the stroke type.
The pure "J" stroke is identical to the pure "pendulum" stroke during the forward stroke into the ball. The only difference is what happens after CB contact. With the "J" stroke, the upper arm and elbow is allow to drop (with shoulder joint rotation) to allow the cue tip to move straight after CB contact. Now, some people might anticipate this motion (as you have suggested) and might start it early (before CB contact).
Momentum doesn't move the stick forward. Momentum is created by muscles accelerating the cue. Gravity might play a very small role, but I think you are placing too much emphasis on this. BTW, these statements are true regardless of the stroke type.
Respectfully,
Dave
I don't know. I've never taken the type of class I think youse guys teach, but I have talked to several folks who have and what I've gleaned from those conversations is that there is a tendency to cookie cut the student: feet here, shoulder there, grip like so, stroke, pause, follow through (often to the bed of the table).
Not saying that's all instructors, but perhaps many. I know that around here (St. Louis), we have a very famous instructor. And the funny thing is that you can always pick out his freshly minted students from across the pool room because they all look exactly the same, set-up at the table.
Lou Figueroa
Dave,
I have to believe that when your cue stops accelerating has a lot more to do with how low your shoulder is in relation to your elbow and not weather you are using a pendulum stroke or not. You could accelerate much farther through the stroke if you shot like Fats and not Allison Fisher. You just naturaly run out of room when your wrist and shoulder start out closer together.
I don't know if I have a pendelum stroke or not; it doesn't matter to me.
Nevertheless, this is a good conversation.
Nevertheless, this is a good conversation.