More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
I agree 100%. I do not comprehend 99.99% of this conversation, but it is fascinating to follow the back and forth between you very knowledgable folks. Still, even not "getting" most of it, I have found that after reading this material, I have made adjustments that have helped me quite a bit lately. I do attribute those improvements to following this particular discussion.
I had been struggling the last month and half or so. Turns out I had lowered my shoulder quite a bit for some odd reason and thinking about this stuff led me to getting the shoulder/elbow back "up", and having better success. Now if I can only make it "repeatable"! (With my lack of table time, not likely. Still, a goal is a goal.)
I think I understand. But what I meant to say was forgetting whether it may be more challenging to time, isn't there an advantage to accelerating right up to contact, rather than reach your peak velocity before you contact the ball (even if it doesn't decelerate)?
Would that not explain the effortless appearance of certain players?
In reply to Neil's post at 601 (seems I can't quote a quote).
I understand your position much better and I guess that we agree to disagree. The pendulum may indeed be the "pure" stroke. Unfortuately, and I mean that sincerely, it would appear that many of the pros use a J stroke or a similar corrective action.
Given you comments this may not be true about the pros. It may just be something that appears to be true and a thorough analysis of several pros is probably the place to start if I want to continue with my position that extended follow through that precedes cue ball contact is a "good" thing.
I just got back from a 20 person ($25.00 get in) tournament and went two and out. So I have to admit that my variation on the J stroke did not help --- today. In my own defense, I can say that I seemed to play better today than usual but I did make at least two serious stroking mistakes that cost me two matches. In one match my opponet only needed to win one game to win the match given the handicapping system and I scratched on the 8 after running 7 and then missing the necessary position by about two inches on a difficult position shot -- such is life.
I will see what the future brings as I continue to work with this type of stroke that "feels" good to me.
I understand your position much better and I guess that we agree to disagree. The pendulum may indeed be the "pure" stroke. Unfortuately, and I mean that sincerely, it would appear that many of the pros use a J stroke or a similar corrective action.
Given you comments this may not be true about the pros. It may just be something that appears to be true and a thorough analysis of several pros is probably the place to start if I want to continue with my position that extended follow through that precedes cue ball contact is a "good" thing.
I just got back from a 20 person ($25.00 get in) tournament and went two and out. So I have to admit that my variation on the J stroke did not help --- today. In my own defense, I can say that I seemed to play better today than usual but I did make at least two serious stroking mistakes that cost me two matches. In one match my opponet only needed to win one game to win the match given the handicapping system and I scratched on the 8 after running 7 and then missing the necessary position by about two inches on a difficult position shot -- such is life.
I will see what the future brings as I continue to work with this type of stroke that "feels" good to me.
I did the test and shot a few series of the shots using both the pendulum stroke and again with the elbow drop. At times, it seemed like the elbow drop was helping me be more accurate then I would hit the facing fat. I would use the pure pendulum stroke and would split the pocket then on the next shot hit the facing fat.
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For the most part, I play in a very humid pool room and the diamond pockets are nice and tight and I have learned to use the facing to avoid hitting the rail going in.
I was thinking that I may set up some more difficult shots to shoot and see if either methods leads to more accuracy.
I practiced some bank shots today and noticed that I was far more accurate using the elbow drop than if I used the pure pendulum stroke.
That's really about all I can add but like many say, if the pros are dropping their elbow, they do it for a reason and they must be profiting from it or they would stop doing it in a heart beat. For most of them, I believe it is simply the way they shoot and not something they ever think about.
JoeyA
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For the most part, I play in a very humid pool room and the diamond pockets are nice and tight and I have learned to use the facing to avoid hitting the rail going in.
I was thinking that I may set up some more difficult shots to shoot and see if either methods leads to more accuracy.
I practiced some bank shots today and noticed that I was far more accurate using the elbow drop than if I used the pure pendulum stroke.
That's really about all I can add but like many say, if the pros are dropping their elbow, they do it for a reason and they must be profiting from it or they would stop doing it in a heart beat. For most of them, I believe it is simply the way they shoot and not something they ever think about.
JoeyA
Accelerating into the ball can result is less peak force during the stroke (per my analysis), and this might be perceived as "requiring less effort," especially with power shots.
I think the effortless appearance is a result of a slow and non-jerky backstroke (which all stroke types should have) and a long follow-through (with elbow drop). The cue slows down over a larger distance making the stroke look smoother and more effortless, IMO.
Regards,
Dave
Could this be because you hit the CB with more speed with the elbow-drop stroke? More speed can help reduce variability with bank shots. For more info, see:
Regards,
Dave
I don't know Dave. It's possible but I can't determine that from what I recall. I still have to wonder if the elbow drop helps with accuracy as well as speed. Your findings about speed reducing variability with bank shots is important information.
One of the better bankers I spoke to at Derby City Classic believes that he plays FAR better with shooting at faster speeds which is agreement with the above information on your website. He believes that if the object ball is coming off the banking rail and lefting off of the table instead of rolling on the felt, he is far more accurate. This particular player regularly cashes in the bank tournament and no one and I mean NO ONE wants to gamble with him with both of the opponents banking at those high speeds. It's what he does best. Still, he doesn't win the championship so there are many other things to consider besides speed but that's obvious, after all.
JoeyA
Could you explain, I don't quite understand. I would have thought that if you accelerate the cue for 6 of 8 inches you won't have as much velocity had you have accelerated for 8 inches (I'm only guessing at the length). Furthermore it would require the former stroke more energy to reach the same speed as latter. Am I wrong?
Be nice, I'm a historian not a physicist.
If you accelerate over the entire forward stroke (even at CB contact), the cue can gain more speed. If you accelerate over a shorter distance, a larger acceleration will be required to create the same speed over the same distance. Acceleration is created by force (F=ma), so greater force will also be needed.
Correct.
The amount of energy delivered is related to the final cue speed (E = 1/2mv^2). If two different strokes create the same cue speed, then the amount of energy delivered is the same. However, one stroke will involve more force than the other, and the muscles will have to work harder to create the larger force. Although, I don't think this info is really important for most pool shots. Most pool shots require very little force and energy. Pool is more about visualization, accuracy, consistency and fine speed control rather than power.
Regards,
Dave
Dr. Dave:
I could be wrong but I think most on this thread want to know what stroke to use to get more draw, when the cue ball is far away from the object ball.
Your example was great, but I can't do it. I would like to see an acceleration trace of that stroke.
By the way, what factor does the weight of the cue play?
a=F/M so a heavier cue requires a larger force to achieve the same acceleration, but what about when the tip strikes the cueball? A heavier cue traveling at the same speed as a light cue will impart more force on the cueball, but it is harder to achieve that speed in the first place.
There must be a family of curves that show the required force from your arm to achieve a certain force on the cueball, with varying cue mass.
Ideally, don't we want to use a stroke (and cue mass) that imparts the most force to the cueball with the least effort?
I could be wrong but I think most on this thread want to know what stroke to use to get more draw, when the cue ball is far away from the object ball.
Your example was great, but I can't do it. I would like to see an acceleration trace of that stroke.
By the way, what factor does the weight of the cue play?
a=F/M so a heavier cue requires a larger force to achieve the same acceleration, but what about when the tip strikes the cueball? A heavier cue traveling at the same speed as a light cue will impart more force on the cueball, but it is harder to achieve that speed in the first place.
There must be a family of curves that show the required force from your arm to achieve a certain force on the cueball, with varying cue mass.
Ideally, don't we want to use a stroke (and cue mass) that imparts the most force to the cueball with the least effort?
I don't think this thread is about power draw shots, but I have lots of info on this topic here:
I'll add this to my list of things to do in the future.
Cue weight isn't a question of just physics. Physiology also comes into play. Some people have more fast-twitch muscle fibers than others. Because of this, cue weight selection (just like baseball bat weight selection) can be a very personal thing. The only way to get good draw action is to hit the ball low enough with enough cue momentum (mass X speed). Some people can generate more momentum with a lighter cue, and some can generate more with a heavier cue. Although, there is a limit to how light the cue can be before double hits (which will look like miscues) become a problem with English and draw shots.
It also helps (a lot!) to have a very slick and fast cloth. It is a lot easier to draw the ball on a slick and fast cloth! However, for a given cue and conditions, its all about hitting low enough with enough speed. Some people think they are hitting low enough, but they aren't (e.g., because they are dropping their elbow by accident or too early, making the tip hit higher than they are aiming). If you are not getting good draw, you are not hitting low enough or fast enough. As you know, the following video contains lots of advice for achieving good cue speed and draw:
Beyond the advice, its all about practice. Physics will not provide any magical answers beyond what is summarized here:
Regards,
Dave
PS: BTW, if you are curious, I have equations relating cue weight and speed, and tip offset, to ball speed and spin in TP A.30.
P stroke (pendulum) ............ the other P stroke (piston)............ J stroke (pendulum with elbow drop follow-through) ............ etc.
Maybe all of these are suboptimal. In golf, it used to be typical that the putting stroke involved a lot of hand and wrist action. In more recent decades, many top pros have tried to minimize the use of the hands and wrists by using more of a full-arm motion from the shoulders. The theory is that the large muscles can do the job better than the small muscles.
What would the equivalent of that be in pool? A pendulum stroke from the shoulder rather than from the elbow! An elbow rise followed by an elbow drop. Maybe Mike Davis is the only guy doing it optimally! Let's call it the PS stroke -- pendulum from the shoulder -- because it's sort of an after-thought.
I say this with my tongue only half way in my cheek. I've experimented with a PS stroke on some shots for some time, and it works well! I wish some of the technical and stroke experts would analyze it and experiment with it. Maybe the future is a PS!
Maybe all of these are suboptimal. In golf, it used to be typical that the putting stroke involved a lot of hand and wrist action. In more recent decades, many top pros have tried to minimize the use of the hands and wrists by using more of a full-arm motion from the shoulders. The theory is that the large muscles can do the job better than the small muscles.
What would the equivalent of that be in pool? A pendulum stroke from the shoulder rather than from the elbow! An elbow rise followed by an elbow drop. Maybe Mike Davis is the only guy doing it optimally! Let's call it the PS stroke -- pendulum from the shoulder -- because it's sort of an after-thought.
I say this with my tongue only half way in my cheek. I've experimented with a PS stroke on some shots for some time, and it works well! I wish some of the technical and stroke experts would analyze it and experiment with it. Maybe the future is a PS!
Is that anything like the (PH) pump handle stroke?
Steve
Yup! ........
Is that anything like the (PH) pump handle stroke?
Steve
But remember there also exists the Bustamante "WM" (windmill) stroke:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mbtMvF8QNro
-Sean
But remember there also exists the Bustamante "WM" (windmill) stroke:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mbtMvF8QNro
-Sean
Nah, I think he's just a J-stroker after the windmill warm-up.
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The effect on speed control
Apologies if I have missed something, but having finally read all the posts in this thread, there seems to be an omission that I find quite surprising.
In the past when I tried the pinned elbow (Pendulum or J type stroke) what I found noticeable was a significant improvement in speed control over the piston type stroke that I was used to. There is probably a theoretical basis for this - fewer muscles involved in the actual motor action. But I am much more interested in people’s actual experiences in this area.
If I have not just imagined it (I admit that this is quite possible) and this is indeed a common experience, then it could explain a few things. In particular, it would explain why the pendulum stroke appears in pool but never in snooker (more emphasis on speed control in pool); why it is more common amongst 14.1 specialists than 9 ball players (again, greater emphasis on speed control); and why it has become less common amongst pro players in the last few decades (as 9 ball has taken over from straight pool as the dominant pro game).
Oh - and a side issue: For those of you that have switched between the pendulum and piston strokes, did you also change your grip?
Apologies if I have missed something, but having finally read all the posts in this thread, there seems to be an omission that I find quite surprising.
In the past when I tried the pinned elbow (Pendulum or J type stroke) what I found noticeable was a significant improvement in speed control over the piston type stroke that I was used to. There is probably a theoretical basis for this - fewer muscles involved in the actual motor action. But I am much more interested in people’s actual experiences in this area.
If I have not just imagined it (I admit that this is quite possible) and this is indeed a common experience, then it could explain a few things. In particular, it would explain why the pendulum stroke appears in pool but never in snooker (more emphasis on speed control in pool); why it is more common amongst 14.1 specialists than 9 ball players (again, greater emphasis on speed control); and why it has become less common amongst pro players in the last few decades (as 9 ball has taken over from straight pool as the dominant pro game).
Oh - and a side issue: For those of you that have switched between the pendulum and piston strokes, did you also change your grip?
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one of my complaints about the pendulum
Siz,
One of my complaints about the pendulum is the lack of speed control. I have better speed control with any other stroke with the exception of the slip stroke which I haven't worked with much. My speed control with it needs a lot of work! I can move my hand forward and bunt with my full arm for best slow speed control, or leave my hand further back using my full arm for better speed control than I have with the pendulum.
For me, the pendulum doesn't give good speed control at slow speeds. The combination of gravity and bicep makes very slow shots almost impossible. Some folks that have better success than I do use extremely short pendulum strokes of only a few inches for soft shots but I don't get the control I want like that either. With the fast cloth and bouncy cushions on today's tables I usually feel like a bull in a china shop on the nine footers regardless though. A little inattention and I overrun shape by miles.
Hu
Siz,
One of my complaints about the pendulum is the lack of speed control. I have better speed control with any other stroke with the exception of the slip stroke which I haven't worked with much. My speed control with it needs a lot of work! I can move my hand forward and bunt with my full arm for best slow speed control, or leave my hand further back using my full arm for better speed control than I have with the pendulum.
For me, the pendulum doesn't give good speed control at slow speeds. The combination of gravity and bicep makes very slow shots almost impossible. Some folks that have better success than I do use extremely short pendulum strokes of only a few inches for soft shots but I don't get the control I want like that either. With the fast cloth and bouncy cushions on today's tables I usually feel like a bull in a china shop on the nine footers regardless though. A little inattention and I overrun shape by miles.
Hu
Interesting.
Now you mention it, when I am pinning my elbow I don't think I ever use a 'pure' pendulum stroke (if such a thing really exists) for slow speed shots; it is always a more J-type stroke. In common with others, I find that anticipating a linear follow through is helpful for speed control, especially at slow speeds.
But whether pendulum or J shaped, I am pretty sure that my speed control is better than when I use my regular piston type stroke.