shotmaker test

[dr_dave]

99% of Dave's info is copied from posts on azb and other forums.

Spidey,

I don't you don't like me very much, but this is a bit ridiculous. What is your motivation for writing such an untrue and hateful statement?

First of all, what do you mean by "info." Does that include my book, all of my DVDs and CD-ROMs, and my entire billiards.colostate.edu website? If so, you are way off base. Anybody who has actually read and viewed any of my stuff will know this. In fact, I wrote my book and released my first CD-ROM and DVD before I even new AZB existed (... one regret I have in life).

Concerning my website, the huge collection of NV videos, HSV videos, TP analyses, instructional articles, and student/instructor resources is almost entirely original material (probably 99%). I didn't invent all of the ideas, but I have dedicated countless hours over many, many years creating this material and offering it online for free. Now, my FAQ resource pages do include some quotes of insightful posts from many knowledgeable past and current AZB and BD CCB users, but these are clearly identified as such with credit given to each person cited (without exception). However, if you go through the entire FAQ resource section of my website, you (or others) will clearly see that most of the information provided is from me.

I wish I knew what motivates you and a few others to dislike me so much and be so confrontational. I know I haven't told you guys what you wanted to hear concerning CTE over the years; although, I have gone out of my way to help identify all of its benefits and how/why it actually works. Regardless, my evaluation of CTE has never been "personal" ... it has always been about the information and how it is presented. For you and a few others, you seem to be somehow threatened personally and feel the need to launch countless and relentless personal attacks whenever people don't buy into your way of thinking.

Catch you later.

Peace,
Dave

 

[Banks]

First of all, what do you mean by "info." Does that include my book, all of my DVDs and CD-ROMs, and my entire billiards.colostate.edu website? If so, you are way off base. Anybody who has actually read and viewed any of my stuff will know this. In fact, I wrote my book and released my first CD-ROM and DVD before I even new AZB existed (... one regret I have in life).

Dave, since you are a professor(yes?), I have no doubt that you are well aware that almost all information passed down has come from multiple sources, gone through multiple filters and has been thought up by multiple people. Your information is no different, in that some of it is not "original"(to have the first thought about anything borders on impossible nowadays), but that is beside the fact that you have gone through great effort to accumulate that knowledge, find the applicable physics behind the actions and provide it to others. Included in this is much that you have worked hard on yourself to provide answers to, whether or not somebody somewhere else has had that knowledge. To compare that to simple reproduction would be akin to my friends telling me I have nothing to offer them because there is information out there about the same things that I am helping them with.

I may not have your DVD set or check every reference that you post, but I do know that when you link information, I'd be a fool to question the validity of that information. In general, I would guess that people take your information as fact, whereas others may get bent out of shape because they have little or no documented proof for their claims.

On behalf of myself and anybody out there that agrees, I thank you for your contributions and would consider it unfair for you to feel that your participation is regarded as regrettable here on AZB.

 

[dr_dave]

Dave, since you are a professor(yes?), I have no doubt that you are well aware that almost all information passed down has come from multiple sources, gone through multiple filters and has been thought up by multiple people. Your information is no different, in that some of it is not "original"(to have the first thought about anything borders on impossible nowadays), but that is beside the fact that you have gone through great effort to accumulate that knowledge, find the applicable physics behind the actions and provide it to others. Included in this is much that you have worked hard on yourself to provide answers to, whether or not somebody somewhere else has had that knowledge. To compare that to simple reproduction would be akin to my friends telling me I have nothing to offer them because there is information out there about the same things that I am helping them with.

I am a professor in my "day job," and you are correct that most information presented in pool books and DVDs today is not very "original" according to your definition. However, all of the stuff I have created in my instructional products and on my website (other than the direct quotes from others) is my "original" and Copyrighted work (according to the legal Copyright definition). What is original is the manner and form in which the information is presented. Although, I have put out lots of stuff that is "original" even under your definition (e.g., 30-degree-rule peace sign, draw shot trisect system, thorough analysis and experimentation of squirt, swerve, and throw effects, etc.).

I may not have your DVD set ...

That is certainly a situation that can be corrected.

... I do know that when you link information, I'd be a fool to question the validity of that information. In general, I would guess that people take your information as fact, whereas others may get bent out of shape because they have little or no documented proof for their claims.

On behalf of myself and anybody out there that agrees, I thank you for your contributions and would consider it unfair for you to feel that your participation is regarded as regrettable here on AZB.

Thank you very much for your kind and supportive remarks. I appreciate it. You seem like a real class act.

Best regards,
Dave

 

[nzjase]

Spidey,

I don't you don't like me very much, but this is a bit ridiculous. What is your motivation for writing such an untrue and hateful statement?

First of all, what do you mean by "info." Does that include my book, all of my DVDs and CD-ROMs, and my entire billiards.colostate.edu website? If so, you are way off base. Anybody who has actually read and viewed any of my stuff will know this. In fact, I wrote my book and released my first CD-ROM and DVD before I even new AZB existed (... one regret I have in life).

Concerning my website, the huge collection of NV videos, HSV videos, TP analyses, instructional articles, and student/instructor resources is almost entirely original material (probably 99%). I didn't invent all of the ideas, but I have dedicated countless hours over many, many years creating this material and offering it online for free. Now, my FAQ resource pages do include some quotes of insightful posts from many knowledgeable past and current AZB and BD CCB users, but these are clearly identified as such with credit given to each person cited (without exception). However, if you go through the entire FAQ resource section of my website, you (or others) will clearly see that most of the information provided is from me.

I wish I knew what motivates you and a few others to dislike me so much and be so confrontational. I know I haven't told you guys what you wanted to hear concerning CTE over the years; although, I have gone out of my way to help identify all of its benefits and how/why it actually works. Regardless, my evaluation of CTE has never been "personal" ... it has always been about the information and how it is presented. For you and a few others, you seem to be somehow threatened personally and feel the need to launch countless and relentless personal attacks whenever people don't buy into your way of thinking.

Catch you later.

Peace,
Dave

Dave I just want to say thank you!

Even if you had stolen every piece of information on your site (you haven't!!) I would still say thank you.

As a new student of the game your site pulls nearly everything together in a great one stop shop for me. It saves me literally MONTHS trying to find what I want and to track down explanations for why certain shots and situations happen and occur on the table.

The FAQ is invaluable and your various articles are great to read.

Please keep contributing to the pool community, your input is invaluable.

FYI - I am planning on buying your DVDs (probably the VEPPs series) but I need to get the cash together, I emailed you about it a few weeks ago

Cheers
Jase

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Spidey,

I don't you don't like me very much, but this is a bit ridiculous. What is your motivation for writing such an untrue and hateful statement?

First of all, what do you mean by "info." Does that include my book, all of my DVDs and CD-ROMs, and my entire billiards.colostate.edu website? If so, you are way off base. Anybody who has actually read and viewed any of my stuff will know this. In fact, I wrote my book and released my first CD-ROM and DVD before I even new AZB existed (... one regret I have in life).

Concerning my website, the huge collection of NV videos, HSV videos, TP analyses, instructional articles, and student/instructor resources is almost entirely original material (probably 99%). I didn't invent all of the ideas, but I have dedicated countless hours over many, many years creating this material and offering it online for free. Now, my FAQ resource pages do include some quotes of insightful posts from many knowledgeable past and current AZB and BD CCB users, but these are clearly identified as such with credit given to each person cited (without exception). However, if you go through the entire FAQ resource section of my website, you (or others) will clearly see that most of the information provided is from me.

I wish I knew what motivates you and a few others to dislike me so much and be so confrontational. I know I haven't told you guys what you wanted to hear concerning CTE over the years; although, I have gone out of my way to help identify all of its benefits and how/why it actually works. Regardless, my evaluation of CTE has never been "personal" ... it has always been about the information and how it is presented. For you and a few others, you seem to be somehow threatened personally and feel the need to launch countless and relentless personal attacks whenever people don't buy into your way of thinking.

Catch you later.

Peace,
Dave

Someone said about you giving out info for free. I just said you should because you take info for free from the forum. I was referring to your FAQ section. That's a fact... anyone who browses to that section can see it. Listing screen names isn't citing sources, by the way.

You think I'm attacking you for some reason and Bob thinks I'm brutal as well. I'm just saying the obvious. You use the forum as a resource for your FAQ section so you giving out info for free here should be a given...not above and beyond.

Explain why that's an attack.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Dr. Dave should shoot the shot test. Nobody cares what he scores

Dave has posted videos of himself shooting, and you've tried to use them to attack his credibility. So "nobody cares what he scores" is not true for you.

...but it'd be nice just to be remembered as someone who was the heart to try and the courage to post a video since many don't.

If he posts a video just to show his speed I'll be disappointed. It would lend undeserved credibility to the claim that it matters and give you more future ammunition (blanks in reality, but relevant to some) to use against him.

pj
chgo

 

[iusedtoberich]

Someone said about you giving out info for free. I just said you should because you take info for free from the forum. I was referring to your FAQ section. That's a fact... anyone who browses to that section can see it. Listing screen names isn't citing sources, by the way.

You think I'm attacking you for some reason and Bob thinks I'm brutal as well. I'm just saying the obvious. You use the forum as a resource for your FAQ section so you giving out info for free here should be a given...not above and beyond.

Explain why that's an attack.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

I really don't understand this reasoning. There is more free [accessible] info on his website than almost anywhere, here included. If you want to find a topic here on AZ, you have to read through countless posts. Now, that is all fun and good... but if you want to see information well organized, with demonstrations, go to Dr Dave's site.

I really don't think its fair to say he stole his information. Frankly, who else is crazy enough to do all the camera work he did, write all the math proofs he did, write all the magazine articles, etc, etc. (Of course, there are others who contribute as much as he does, but that list is not that large, and those guys often work with Dr Dave). All that information is his original work. Sure, he didn't invent the draw shot, but he has some good papers on it.

Example: For years people argued that the joint, the taper, the stiffness ,etc., affect deflection. (And they still do). Now, you just point that person to his site, reference the article where he proves what actually causes the deflection, and end of story. Thats just one example where there was no consensus on a topic, even from top tier cue makers, and now, there is definitive proof. You can make this case for many aspects of the game, that are shown on his site or video encylopedia of shots.

On the topic of his playing ability, so what if he's a C player. Most of the serious pool playing population is that speed. That doesn't make a difference when you are making a video. Even a C player will hit the shot correctly a few times, and the good takes are what you put on the video. I personally believe he had better players shoot in some of his videos, specifically so someone couldn't say something to the affect of "this guy can't play, therefore he shouldn't be on a video about how to play". So while I probably wouldn't take a personal lesson from him on how to improve my game, reading his mathematical proofs, watching his videos (where only the correct hits are shown), and using his information to understand the reactions we see on the table better are all something I would (and do) definitely do.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I really don't understand this reasoning. There is more free [accessible] info on his website than almost anywhere, here included. If you want to find a topic here on AZ, you have to read through countless posts. Now, that is all fun and good... but if you want to see information well organized, with demonstrations, go to Dr Dave's site.

I really don't think its fair to say he stole his information. Frankly, who else is crazy enough to do all the camera work he did, write all the math proofs he did, write all the magazine articles, etc, etc. (Of course, there are others who contribute as much as he does, but that list is not that large, and those guys often work with Dr Dave). All that information is his original work. Sure, he didn't invent the draw shot, but he has some good papers on it.

Example: For years people argued that the joint, the taper, the stiffness ,etc., affect deflection. (And they still do). Now, you just point that person to his site, reference the article where he proves what actually causes the deflection, and end of story. Thats just one example where there was no consensus on a topic, even from top tier cue makers, and now, there is definitive proof. You can make this case for many aspects of the game, that are shown on his site or video encylopedia of shots.

On the topic of his playing ability, so what if he's a C player. Most of the serious pool playing population is that speed. That doesn't make a difference when you are making a video. Even a C player will hit the shot correctly a few times, and the good takes are what you put on the video. I personally believe he had better players shoot in some of his videos, specifically so someone couldn't say something to the affect of "this guy can't play, therefore he shouldn't be on a video about how to play". So while I probably wouldn't take a personal lesson from him on how to improve my game, reading his mathematical proofs, watching his videos (where only the correct hits are shown), and using his information to understand the reactions we see on the table better are all something I would (and do) definitely do.

I never said he stole anything. Just that he SHOULD support the site that clearly helped build his.



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[dr_dave]

Someone said about you giving out info for free. I just said you should because you take info for free from the forum. I was referring to your FAQ section.

I don't understand why you think my practice of posting quotes from various sources with credit given is "taking info."

Listing screen names isn't citing sources, by the way.

In the past, I just listed screen names, and I included the following at the top of my FAQ site so people would know where the quotes came from (e.g., if they wanted to search for them):

mostly from the AZBilliards online discussion forum and the Billiards Digest online CCB discussion forum​

I thought the reason some people use screen names is they don't want others to know their true identity. However, if people ask me to include their full name along with their quote (as you have done in the past), I am happy to comply immediately (as I have done for you in the past).

More recently, I have been also linking directly back to the source threads for the people who might want to see the original context. I send thanks to Sean (sfleinen) again for suggesting this great idea. I wish I had always done this, but I didn't. I thought about (and actually tried) to search for many of the older quotes to add links, but I didn't have much success with this. Many of the posts don't exist anymore (especially on the BD CCB site) and many of the posts and/or threads have been edited, deleted, and changed making it extremely difficult or impossible to find them. Sorry, but I have done and continue to do my best in this area.

Here's a good example of my current citing method, which is the latest thing I have quoted on my FAQ site:

how to estimate cut angles​

I recently added the useful diagram from oldschool1478 along with a link back to the thread where it was contributed and discussed. Again, I plan to do this for anything I quote in the future.

Regardless, I think most people (me included) don't have the patience to attempt to search for and wade through long forum threads often full of irrelevant (and often inaccurate) info and off-topic rantings, tirades, and personal attacks. This is exactly why I starting quoting insightful users whenever they posted something interesting or useful and pertinent to one of my resource pages. I want to be able to find it again in the future without having to spend hours trying to search for it (assuming I could even remember what I may have wanted to search for). To me, the FAQ section of my website creates tremendous value for both me and others when we want to find something useful quickly. I am sorry you don't agree, but I still think the service I provide is no way inappropriate. In fact, I think some people might even feel honored to be quoted on my site.

Peace,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

You think I'm attacking you for some reason and Bob thinks I'm brutal as well.

Obviously, I'm not the only person who thought you were inappropriate and out of line. Again, here is the main quote of yours I took issue with, per my previous explanation:

99% of Dave's info is copied from posts on azb and other forums.

Concerning the aiming section of my FAQ section, you are correct that I do quote many different people and sources beyond my own information and resources. But isn't this a good thing? Aiming is such a controversial topic and involves so many perspectives, I think it is important include viewpoints and resources of others.

For example, in the first subsection of the aiming resource site (titled "aiming systems"), there are three paragraphs written by me, including links to several of my supporting resources, but also included is a link to the often-cited "How the Pros Aim" article, a couple of insightful quotes from PJ and Spiderman (from the BD CCB forum from many years ago), and a set of links to a large collection of articles written by Bob Jewett on this topic. Why do you think this is bad or inappropriate?

I even have a couple of quotes from you, along with a link to your blog in the CTE section of the aiming resource page (under "CTE Version 3"). And I even have your full name listed as you requested of me in the past. And I even included a clarification that you asked me to add after one of our long phone conversations. I also have an AZB quote from you under the quotes from others section of the CTE page. Again, I think this is a good thing, even though I don't agree with many of your perspectives and approaches.

I also have a link to Stan's DVD on the page where I briefly describe and illustrate my interpretation of the basics of his system. Here's the page:

Stan's version of CTE​

Again, I don't need to do this, but I chose to.

Peace,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dave has posted videos of himself shooting, and you've tried to use them to attack his credibility. So "nobody cares what he scores" is not true for you.

There are literally hundreds of videos of me shooting online already, and there will be many more in the near future (probably by January or February of 2013) related to a current project I am working on (and these will involve some of the type of stuff Spidey and Eric. seem to crave so much). If the "Spideys" and "Eric.s" out there want more, then can shell out the cash for VEPS and/or VEPS, which also include me shooting (along with Tom Ross and Bob Jewett, who did most of the shooting). If people out there really need or want to see me shooting, here are a few examples that at least show that I am probably not a "D" player, as Spidey has suggested in the past (although, I still look forward to the significant "weight" Spidey" will owe me if we ever play since, from his posts, he is obviously a top shortstop and I am just a "D player"):

NV B.65 - Power draw technique advice from VEPS I
NV C.16 - Jump shot drills, from VEPP IV
NV C.17 - Safety challenge game and drill, from VEPP V
NV A.6 - Massé-draw billiard (carom) shot​

Here's one I'm particularly proud of:

NV B.33 - Back-hand swoop and twist ball-turn techniques​

That curving cut shot was not easy, even with the trick ball.

If he posts a video just to show his speed I'll be disappointed.

I obviously don't feel a need to do this, especially since there is enough out there already (and there will be more in the near future). Now, hopefully "Eric." can cease his constant reminders to which I will always respond with my same answer. I guess I should thank him for allowing me to keep plugging my DVDs. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

PS: PJ, I'm glad you are still around, and I hope you are here to stay for good. In other words, try to be a good boy. I honestly think you have offered as much (if not more) insight and useful posts over the years compared to any other single AZB user. You are certainly quoted more than any other person in my FAQ pages (although, Bob Jewett, Mike Page, and Colin Colenso also appear often ... that's pretty good company). Good job! Keep it up.

 

[elvicash]

People should quit picking at Dr Dave so much. I do not know him but it does not seem to me that he is trying to take personal advantage of anyone, I doubt he is getting wealthy off of his video encyclopedia DVD set that is a purchased item and he gives his website info away for free. I think he trying to give back to all pool players and to the game itself.

Now it appears that he is trying to keep the originator of what he finds on his version of whatever info which is really cool. I doubt that most of the things on Dr Daves site were first thought of by Dr Dave or by the person who he sites as most people learn what they know perhaps they originate but many people who write something are not always writing original thoughts including Dr. Dave as he would be the first to admit. But if he gets an idea from reading it somewhere takes the time to set it up learn it and then video and make a web page then he has owned some of that via his work. Perhaps we should cut him some slack and appreciate the fact that he is putting all of that info together in a single location.

Thanks Dr. Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I don't understand why you think my practice of posting quotes from various sources with credit given is "taking info."

Because it is (you're populating your site's content from the content posted here). Not saying you're stealing nor am I saying you're being a bad guy in doing such. You are, however, taking info from here and moving it to your site. As I said earlier, when someone mentioned how nice of a guy you were to post info --- I just wanted to point out that I thought you SHOULD do such as it should be a give AND take (and not just take). I just wanted to point out you weren't going above and beyond to contribute info -- I really think it should be par for the course given the symbiotic relationship.

Now, HOW someone can possibly think that's an attack on you is clearly nuts. I also know if I don't kneel before Zod, Bob red-reps me so that's also par for the course.

Don't worry about spots, Dave. We'll likely never play and the odds of you being any kind of gambler is about the same as Roseanne winning the Presidency in November. Contrary to what you think, I don't dislike ya; I was merely lending perspective earlier in this thread.

 

[Vahmurka]

recently I noticed I get tired of trying to cut my way through the jungle of off-topic messages in threads with interesting/promising title. Like it was about 13 mm ld shafts, for instance. First started close to the subject and then several pages of cte "jihaddy" and similar stuff.
Now here that's the same, we have hot discussion of Dr Dave's site and whether he is good or bad at all.

Dave has released tons of material and videos well before any CTE theme popularity, and most likely well before some of his bashers appeared at AZB. Even if it was not the story, even if he was only copying some of the best ideas, instructional advice, etc. - I would have preferred this to be done. Because the alternative is losing such information forever. Thanks to Dr Dave, and what elvicash said. I can't understand why you people just don't leave each other alone and get along at our great forum. Instead you try to turn it into a mess sometimes.

 

[dr_dave]

Not saying you're stealing nor am I saying you're being a bad guy in doing such. You are, however, taking info from here and moving it to your site. As I said earlier, when someone mentioned how nice of a guy you were to post info --- I just wanted to point out that I thought you SHOULD do such as it should be a give AND take (and not just take). I just wanted to point out you weren't going above and beyond to contribute info -- I really think it should be par for the course given the symbiotic relationship.

Are you implying that I have not contributed much useful info to AZB? I would suspect that most AZB users (me included) would disagree with you. Most (almost all) of the information and statements in the FAQ section of my website is stuff I have written here first! Whenever I answer a question and I think that question might come up again in the future, I include the answer in the FAQ section of my site. That way, if the same question gets asked again in the future, I can easily link to the answer and supporting resources (and quotes from others) without having to attempt to copy and paste pages of formatted text and embedded images, videos and article links into an AZB post (which can take a long time). That's what FAQ sites are for, in contrast to discussion forums where it can be notoriously difficult to find past useful information.

Now, HOW someone can possibly think that's an attack on you is clearly nuts.

This might be hard for you to believe, but not everybody thinks like you do. Clearly, there are many "nuts" on this forum (you excluded of course).

Peace,
Dave

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I'm going to remind..just a last time; are you adding constructively to the conversation or just arguing?

 

[dr_dave]

I'm going to remind..just a last time; are you adding constructively to the conversation or just arguing?

Thank you for the reminder. I will stop trying to defend myself now. I usually try to ignore this sort of thing, but Spidey has been quite persistent. I am done now and will let Spidey have the last word.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Thank you for giving us a great forum on which to exchange ideas. I appreciate your efforts to attempt to keep the forum out of the muck into which it often tries to plunge. I know you are fighting a difficult battle.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

Just an FYI, I am not going so far as pointing out a specific poster in the warning.

However, it applies to several.

Dave