F
Fred Agnir
Guest
CrossSideLarry said:
Willie Hoppe was not a pool player.
Fred
the 4 best pool players ever
- Thread starter scorpionjohnny
- Start date
Willie Hoppe was not a pool player.
Fred
Not such an easy question with the men, but I'll take a shot. Four greatest men:
Mike Sigel
Efren Reyes
Willie Mosconi
Irving Crane
Wth apologies to Alfredo DeOro, Ralph Greenleaf, Luther Lassiter, Willie Hoppe, Nick Varner, and Ralf Souquet, none of whom would look out of place on anyone's list.
Four greatest women? That one's pretty easy.
Ruth McGuinness
Jean Balukas
Allison Fisher
Karen Corr
Mike Sigel
Efren Reyes
Willie Mosconi
Irving Crane
Wth apologies to Alfredo DeOro, Ralph Greenleaf, Luther Lassiter, Willie Hoppe, Nick Varner, and Ralf Souquet, none of whom would look out of place on anyone's list.
Four greatest women? That one's pretty easy.
Ruth McGuinness
Jean Balukas
Allison Fisher
Karen Corr
scorpionjohnny said:
I'm going to limit my picks to the players I've
seen play, I can't speak for the past but I have no
doubt that Mosconi and Greenleaf would top the list,
that being said here are my four:
Mike Sigel
Nick Varner
Efren Reyes
Steve Mizerak
VERY CLOSE runner ups would include: Buddy Hall,
Ralf Souqet, Jim Rempe, Jose Parica, Johnny Archer.
Although I don't feel any women play on a par with
the men I still feel that a mention should go to
Allison Fisher. To dominate the WPBA tour the way she
has for 9 or 10 years is truly remarkable.
seems pretty easy to me:
Mosconi
Crane
Sigel
Reyes
Mosconi
Crane
Sigel
Reyes
Jimmy M. said:That should serve as some sort of testament.
He's on almost everyone's list here for a reason.
A big part of that reason is because he is current. Do this poll in 30 years and I would bet that someone else will be getting all the hype and Efren will have few supporters. His only hope in staying in peoples minds are the videos of him, something that most players in events before 1990 dont have to keep their skills alive in the mind of the general public. People always think the best talent is the current one, Federer is the best tennis player ever, Tiger is the best golfer ever, O'Sullivan is the best snooker player ever, ect....
Efren's star will fade the minute he quits playing and the next hyped player shows up. Sigel faded from memory, Mosconi's talent is forgotten, Greenleaf is virtually unknown by anyone of this age, the funny thing is of those players Efren has the least credentials, he is the only one of those 4 that really did not dominate his era, yet people still consider him the best to ever hold a cue.
Do this poll in 50 years and I would be willing to bet that Mosconi is considered to have been a better player then Reyes, Greenleaf and Sigel too. Time makes all the hype fade and what is left is legend and Reyes does not have the track record to stand the test of time.
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C'mon buddy, you can't be serious. I have the utmost respect for players like Mosconi and especially Lassiter who was from my hometown. Heck, Wimpy was my idol when i was a kid and I believe he was the best 9-ball player of his era, as was Mosconi at 14.1, but theres no denying efren's greatness. I know players that have played with Lassiter and Efren and while they'll tell you both players were awesome, they admit Efren was just on another level. And as far as track record, I mean the man is over 50 years old and he has been at the top of the money list for the past 5 years, the spots he hands out to great players is embarrassing, and his humility and class outweigh any other player I have ever known. These are the things that legends are made of. Do I think his star will fade? Never. That's like saying everyone will forget about Michael Jordan but always remember Wilt Chamberlain. Just my 2 centsCeltic said:
Celtic said:
Tap Tap tap !!!!
Excellent observation.
ps. Although(personally) I agree Reyes is amongst the greatest ever.....we don't need to be beat over the head with that fact time and time again with a bunch of different threads searching for the same answer.
An archive search of all of scorpionjohhny's(7) posts clearly indicate that he is posting here to glorify Reyes.RJ
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LOOPSHARK said:
jimmy caras
I'd squeeze Whoopi Goldberg and James Coburn just in front of DMCaptainJR said:Jackie Gleason
Paul Newman
Tom Cruise
and of course
Drivermaker
Mosconi, Worste, Greenleaf and Irving Crane.
Then Fast Larry.
Then Fast Larry.
Celtic said:
You fuck off, asshole. Stop bitching about these threads if you are are going to keep responding. Every single one of these threads you respond saying that Efren is overrated, you say the same thing every time. You're biased against Reyes, and you hate these threads because everyone votes that Reyes is the best. Somehow it offends you and you decide to bitch. Please stop the cycle of bitching, bitcher.
F
Fred Agnir
Guest
Colin Colenso said:I'd squeeze Whoopi Goldberg and James Coburn just in front of DM
Excellent! Johnny Cash needs a spot in there as well.
Fred
LowEnglish said:
I do agree with you, that Reyes is one of the best if not(arguably) the best ever.
But I also agree with Celtic's observation that there have been about 7 threads (by the same poster)that are all aimed at glorifying Reyes. It does tend to get a little much. JMO, RJ
drivermaker
Banned
Fred Agnir said:
Enough is enough...this is pissing me off that you guys don't think enough of my game! Besides, Johnny Cash aimed like he played his guitar...by feel!
I saw a guy playing in a TV series in Australia who hit the OB instead of the CB, and hit it straight into a rail, nowhere near another ball, because he couldn't walk out of camera shot.drivermaker said:Enough is enough...this is pissing me off that you guys don't think enough of my game! Besides, Johnny Cash aimed like he played his guitar...by feel!
I'd rank him above you too!
LowEnglish said:
By all means, keep circle jerking with every other Reyes groupy right in plain view of everyone. That is all these threads are, a Reyes circle jerk and you are just one of those guys stroking your neighbor with a big picture of Reyes sitting in front of you.
Alot of people see these threads for what they are, that is why some people, even those who rate Efren at the top have said they agree. I dont care if people rate Efren at the top, he is probably the best one pocket player ever. He is in my top 10 of 9-ball players ever, and if he had a break he maybe could have been #1. I am not biased against him, I have no problem admitting the guy is phenomenal, I just dont see him as the best ever at the game of pool and it seems that on this board if you actually make such a claim then you can be rest assured you will get 3 more threads starting right quick to cram the "Reyes is GOD" message down your throat. People are welcome to their opinion, you dont need to rehash your opinion every single day in a new thread trying to convert the people who might not agree with yours though. I have NEVER started a "So Mike Sigel, is he the best ever?" thread or a "Mosconi is clearly the greatest to pick up a cue" thread. All I do is give a differing opinion from the cult like following of Reyes on a already going thread and then JohnnyScorpion decides to start another thread designed as nothing more then a new Reyes circle jerk where the exact same people can say the exact same thing all over again fawning over Reyes.
It's a shame that this thread has proceeded the way it has. After all, Celtic may be right. Who knows how history will judge Efren. Though it's clear Reyes has a lot of fans on the forum, who is to say what his legacy will be?
Celtic has often argued in these threads that Efren isn't one of the four best nineballers ever. I happen to agree. To me, Archer, Hall, Strickland, Sigel and Lassiter were defintiely more accomplished at nineball. Celtic has suggested that nineball should be the measuring stick, as it has the game used to decide the world championship in the period in which Efren has competed as a pro. It's a reasonable argument, but many of us feel that greatness should be measured based on all-around skill, and Efren really seems to measure up well when all-around skills are considered. That doesn't make us right, it's just the way we see it. It's entirely a matter of opinion.
Will history count Efren's titles and say that Sigel and Earl had more, or will something other than an objective review of the staitstics prevail. Then again, having the stats guarantees nothing.
I recall chatting with an 88 year old about baseball, and the conversation took place many years ago. More than sixty years his younger, I told him I thought that Tom Seaver should be counted among the greatest pitchers ever, worthy of mention with names like Sandy Koufax and Warren Spahn and even Walter Johnson. I asked him who he thought the best pitcher he'd ever seen was. His answer absolutely blew me away. He said Christy Matthewson was the best pitcher in baseball history. Now I admitted I'd heard of him, but who exactly was Christy Matthewson? So I went home and looked him up in my Baseball Encycolopedia, and my eyes nearly popped out. In one twelve year span, Matthewson AVERAGED the following season: 27 - 11 with an ERA of 1.95.
I wondered how a guy that was that good had somehow traveled below my radar. The answer, of course, was that not many remembered Matthewson, so his name tended not to come up in discussions of the greatest pitcher ever. I think pool is similar. There aren't many alive today that watched DeOro or Greenleaf play, so they are starting to fade in discussions of the greatest ever.
I think that in pool and every other sport, we tend to believe that we are watching the best ever today. The physical conditioning of the competitors is at an all-time high and the equipment and playing conditions are better than ever.
Efren gets great respect in these threads. Who knows whether he's the best? That we can leave to history. What we do know is that most of us have truly enjoyed his innvoative, creative and exciting play over the years, and we'll always remember him fondly as one of the greatest.
Like Celtic says, though, maybe he's not the greatest. History will judge.
Celtic has often argued in these threads that Efren isn't one of the four best nineballers ever. I happen to agree. To me, Archer, Hall, Strickland, Sigel and Lassiter were defintiely more accomplished at nineball. Celtic has suggested that nineball should be the measuring stick, as it has the game used to decide the world championship in the period in which Efren has competed as a pro. It's a reasonable argument, but many of us feel that greatness should be measured based on all-around skill, and Efren really seems to measure up well when all-around skills are considered. That doesn't make us right, it's just the way we see it. It's entirely a matter of opinion.
Will history count Efren's titles and say that Sigel and Earl had more, or will something other than an objective review of the staitstics prevail. Then again, having the stats guarantees nothing.
I recall chatting with an 88 year old about baseball, and the conversation took place many years ago. More than sixty years his younger, I told him I thought that Tom Seaver should be counted among the greatest pitchers ever, worthy of mention with names like Sandy Koufax and Warren Spahn and even Walter Johnson. I asked him who he thought the best pitcher he'd ever seen was. His answer absolutely blew me away. He said Christy Matthewson was the best pitcher in baseball history. Now I admitted I'd heard of him, but who exactly was Christy Matthewson? So I went home and looked him up in my Baseball Encycolopedia, and my eyes nearly popped out. In one twelve year span, Matthewson AVERAGED the following season: 27 - 11 with an ERA of 1.95.
I wondered how a guy that was that good had somehow traveled below my radar. The answer, of course, was that not many remembered Matthewson, so his name tended not to come up in discussions of the greatest pitcher ever. I think pool is similar. There aren't many alive today that watched DeOro or Greenleaf play, so they are starting to fade in discussions of the greatest ever.
I think that in pool and every other sport, we tend to believe that we are watching the best ever today. The physical conditioning of the competitors is at an all-time high and the equipment and playing conditions are better than ever.
Efren gets great respect in these threads. Who knows whether he's the best? That we can leave to history. What we do know is that most of us have truly enjoyed his innvoative, creative and exciting play over the years, and we'll always remember him fondly as one of the greatest.
Like Celtic says, though, maybe he's not the greatest. History will judge.
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sjm,
Why do you have to start stirring up trouble with logical arguments and information
btw: What the heck is - 27 - 11 with an ERA of 1.95.
And a question for you if you don't mind: In Australia Walter Lindrum is considered one of our greatest ever sporting legends. Is his story known at all among US circles? I never see a mention of him here when it comes to great past players.
Why do you have to start stirring up trouble with logical arguments and information
btw: What the heck is - 27 - 11 with an ERA of 1.95.
And a question for you if you don't mind: In Australia Walter Lindrum is considered one of our greatest ever sporting legends. Is his story known at all among US circles? I never see a mention of him here when it comes to great past players.
Very intresting facts SJM and well written.
In golf and tennis, MAJOR tournament wins are a measuring stick for greatness in a sport.Jack NicKlaus and Tiger Woods are revered for their accomplishments
in golf for example. Samprass, Borg etc in tennis.
Efrin has won a few MAJORS such as the WPC in 1999, the derby overall, world championship 8 ball and perhaps a US Open etc etc ,However, his title count is very low in MAJOR championships compared to Strickland, Sigel, Mosconi and others.
If greatness is measured in MAJOR tournament wins, Efrin is definitly lacking in this catergory.RJ
In golf and tennis, MAJOR tournament wins are a measuring stick for greatness in a sport.Jack NicKlaus and Tiger Woods are revered for their accomplishments
in golf for example. Samprass, Borg etc in tennis.
Efrin has won a few MAJORS such as the WPC in 1999, the derby overall, world championship 8 ball and perhaps a US Open etc etc ,However, his title count is very low in MAJOR championships compared to Strickland, Sigel, Mosconi and others.
If greatness is measured in MAJOR tournament wins, Efrin is definitly lacking in this catergory.RJ