USPPA & Jump Cue Ban.. by Tony Annigoni

[Troy]

Why, would it make any difference what the USPPA added money source is ???

The source of a majority of the USPPA added money is from the $2.00 per scoresheet paid via the player's tournament entry fee.

And by the way, the players are by no means "trapped" at the Sands. They are obviously free to stay at any hotel in Reno/Sparks or at a private residence if they can line that up. There is also no commitment made that the players must gamble at the Sands or anywhere else.

Troy

Before I answer your question let me ask you where the "added" money comes from? Does the USPPA have a magic fountain of money that the added money comes from? Or does it come from the players contributions? Or does it come from sponsors?
John Barton

 

[T411]

professional opinion

What do you think the opinion of pro players would be for the use of the jump cue, or even no ball in hand-get behind the line?

 

[Jimmy M.]

What is the big deal? The USPPA is entitled to ban jump cues if they like. In fact, they didn't even have to go so far as to release a statement explaining why. When you people who are opposed to it start your own organization, and start holding your own tournaments, you'll be entitled to allow, or not allow, whatever you like. In the meantime, the USPPA isn't allowing jump cues anymore. BFD!

 

[instroke]

Why, would it make any difference what the USPPA added money source is ???

The source of a majority of the USPPA added money is from the $2.00 per scoresheet paid via the player's tournament entry fee.

And by the way, the players are by no means "trapped" at the Sands. They are obviously free to stay at any hotel in Reno/Sparks or at a private residence if they can line that up. There is also no commitment made that the players must gamble at the Sands or anywhere else.

Troy

Because the implication by the other poster is that it's the USPPA/Tony Annigoni that is being the sponsor/patron when they "add" money to the tournament. The truth is that the players are adding the money with their dues. The USPPA is doing the organizing and the shifting of funds but they are not donating money to the tournament.

The Sands knows that they are going to get a certain number of room nights from the tournament. They also know that they are going to get a percentage of the available spending money and they depend on a lot of tournament payout to make it's way back through the tables. If this were not the case then they wouldn't do business with the USPPA. While I have never been to the Sands tournament I have been to enough of the ones in Vegas to know that most players spend most of their time in the hotel/casino. Trapped is just an expression meaning that because of the nature of the event most players are going to be spending the majority of their time and money at the Sands.

There is nothing wrong with them donating money to the tournament. I just take exception to the insinuation that what the Sands kicks in is somehow altruistic. It's not, it's a business decision based on expected return on investment.

Instroke on the other hand has often GIVEN product and money without any formal expectation of return in the form of advertising or revenue. Of course it is always in our minds that we will probably get some kind of positive notice from the public but we have almost never put figures to what kind of return we MIGHT get or have gotten from our donations.

John

 

[instroke]

What is the big deal? The USPPA is entitled to ban jump cues if they like. In fact, they didn't even have to go so far as to release a statement explaining why. When you people who are opposed to it start your own organization, and start holding your own tournaments, you'll be entitled to allow, or not allow, whatever you like. In the meantime, the USPPA isn't allowing jump cues anymore. BFD!

The big deal is that they "should" be somehow connected to the rest of the pool world. What Tony has effectively done is that he has screwed his players who have invested in their game with jump cues, he has screwed the retailers who sell jump cues in his area, he is trying to screw the manufacturers of the jump cues and the other organizations that make the rules.

Of course he can do whatever he likes, take it or leave it. It's just that he is a hypocrite. He bans the jump cues because he says they damage the table and cheapen the game yet offers no proof. He cites snooker but does not ban the jump shot. I typed up a long reply and the computer crashed while sending it so I have to it again. Meanwhile, you are right it's not a big deal.

The USPPA is a super small part of the pool playing world and with people like Tony at the helm it won't get much bigger. His jump cue ban is merely a tiny ripple which will fade quickly.

John

 

[instroke]

What better place? How about face to face? Then there can be a little give and take without all the flame wars that these discussions always wind up being via posts.
I'm not expressing an opinion on the main topic here, just one on how it would best be discussed.

I have no problem with face to face. Although it won't happen I would love to have a face to face debate on this issue with the caveat that if I win then Tony has to allow jump cues and if I lose I won't sell jump cues.

Since he made the ban he has to bring his points about why they shoudl be banned and if I can successfully refute them physically and intellectually according to a panel of independent judges then he will have to concede defeat.

I would like to see something more concise than the "position" paper posted here.

John

 

[instroke]

Mr. Annigoni was the one who used the word patronizing, not I. Perhaps he should choose his words more carefully before he jumps on the soapbox.

John Barton

And so should I. Mr. Annigoni did not use the word patronizing. He used the word patrimonious. Although I made the mistake of picking on the wrong word I still contend that Mr. Annigoni is being hypocritical when he calls the billiard industry patrimonious. After all a patriarch is a strong father figure in a family unit or a hiearchy. Generally it is considered patrimonius when decisions are made by the patriarch from a position of power rather than consideration. Thus, Mr. Annigoni's decision to ban jump cues based on his obvious personal bias and the fact that he is in a position to do so within his own organization without consideration of his players is the highest form of patrimony.

John

 

[T411]

Of course he can do whatever he likes, take it or leave it. It's just that he is a hypocrite. He bans the jump cues because he says they damage the table and cheapen the game yet offers no proof. He cites snooker but does not ban the jump shot. I typed up a long reply and the computer crashed while sending it so I have to it again. Meanwhile, you are right it's not a big deal.
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How does this make him a hypocrite? One may not agree with with him and to U he may be wrong but how does this make him a hypocrite?

 

[instroke]

Of course he can do whatever he likes, take it or leave it. It's just that he is a hypocrite. He bans the jump cues because he says they damage the table and cheapen the game yet offers no proof. He cites snooker but does not ban the jump shot. I typed up a long reply and the computer crashed while sending it so I have to it again. Meanwhile, you are right it's not a big deal.
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How does this make him a hypocrite? One may not agree with with him and to U he may be wrong but how does this make him a hypocrite?

Because he cites comparisons to Snooker and claims to be saving the heritage of the game and preserving the skill and then takes no steps to actually implement rules that do these things. He takes potshots at the BCA's table specs yet has none of his own. He would not even try to require the host rooms to adhere to standard specs because they would abandon the USPPA. Tony is a hypocrite because he uses references to further a personal bias when he has no intention of emulating the ideals he espouses.

I doubt that he is so much of a hypocrite that he uses jump cues while simultaneously banning them.

John

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Now to answer your question, Instroke has donated well over $350,000 in product and cash to billiard leagues, tournaments and players during the last 13 years in business. Instroke's mail is full of testimonials from satisfied league ops, tournament directors and players who were thrilled with our contributions. Now, that's not much during a 13 year period but it certainly isn't chickenfeed either and it's what our budget would bear.

$350,000 over 13 years is almost $27,000 a year. Instroke must be making a lot of money off pool players to afford this figure. Instroke's generosity is overwhelming. Even if it was all product and just a little cash.. this is probably the most by any company in the POOL industry. I admit, you certainly you deserve a voice in this discussion.

Mr. Annigoni was the one who used the word patronizing, not I. Perhaps he should choose his words more carefully before he jumps on the soapbox.

Mr. Barton, you used the "PATRON of the game" reference.

John Barton

Now answer this please, would it really bother you if the West coast decided to have its own style of tournaments, set of rules and sponsers? Like the differences between the major leage orgainizations? (i.e. APA, TAP, BCA, VNEA) I think not.

The Pros (men or women) don't follow the BCA why should the rest of us?
The Pros have their own set of rules and standards.

I sure would like to be able to see into the future, just 5 years from now.. to see how this all works out.

 

[nfty9er]

Usppa

I am a great supporter of the usppa and the contributions they have made to amateur pool on the west coast but I would like to know where tom and troy get the idea that the usppa is a major contributor for added money to the tournaments. All the money comes from the sponser holding the tournament i.e. sands, hollywood billiards. hard times, california billiard club, etc etc.
The 2.00 players fee has nothing to do with added money, that goes to tony and gene to use for administering the system, advertising, probably travel, and maybe some profit. Their only contribution now is the bonus system that is offered. I have yet to see money added by the usppa except for bonus. And that is great. I doubt if 2 bucks a person in this day an age goes very far with the amount of work they do. But since we dont see their books we will never know. But please dont say they provide added money.
I agree with you John. You are right on point about the choices and the reasons people put in that added money. I sure see thousands of dollars going back into the Sands at every tournament. I guarantee they are making their money back and then some as their are some real high rollers in the pooll game.
As for the jump cues i am not sure yet. There are great arguments on both sides and I am not sure there is a real answer. I am leaning toward jump shots but not cues but boy people can make some great points. I am amazed how well this industry is expressing itself and how passionate everyone is, that can only be good for the sport.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Before I answer your question let me ask you where the "added" money comes from? Does the USPPA have a magic fountain of money that the added money comes from? Or does it come from the players contributions? Or does it come from sponsors? If it comes from sponsors then what do the sponsors get out of it? The warm and fuzzy feeling? It is obvious what the Sands gets out of adding a little money, relatively speaking, when the players are trapped in their hotel and gambling establishment. I have never seen the Sands ship money to any other tournament but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.Where the USPPA gets the added money and how is a very good question. The room owners always put up the CASH. It's in appreciation for all the business the players give during the year. The bigger $5000 added is a cumlative contribution scheme. From other businesses (i.e. pool suppliers, hotels, casinos and the like). In the next 4 months the California rooms and the Sands in Reno will be adding a total of $63,000 added CASH (NO Products) to 8 events. The only thing the sponsors get is advertising (mostly banners)

If you would like to contribute cash to any of these events, please feel free to contact me at Hard Times Billiards in Sacramento CA, the number is 916-332-8793 ask for Tom or Chuck.. either of us will be glad to take your money.

Now to answer your question, Instroke has donated well over $350,000 in product and cash to billiard leagues, tournaments and players during the last 13 years in business. Instroke's mail is full of testimonials from satisfied league ops, tournament directors and players who were thrilled with our contributions. Now, that's not much during a 13 year period but it certainly isn't chickenfeed either and it's what our budget would bear.

Mr. Annigoni was the one who used the word patronizing, not I. Perhaps he should choose his words more carefully before he jumps on the soapbox.

John Barton

And, if this is a subject that you think is a NON-issue because it's a West Coast thing, by a two bit org. called the USPPA. why bother.. you must have more important things to do?

 

[T411]

Because he cites comparisons to Snooker and claims to be saving the heritage of the game and preserving the skill and then takes no steps to actually implement rules that do these things. He takes potshots at the BCA's table specs yet has none of his own. He would not even try to require the host rooms to adhere to standard specs because they would abandon the USPPA. Tony is a hypocrite because he uses references to further a personal bias when he has no intention of emulating the ideals he espouses.

I doubt that he is so much of a hypocrite that he uses jump cues while simultaneously banning them.

John

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One can only make changes to things that one has the power to do. You say your self that host rooms would abandon the USSPA if Tony made them adhere to standard specs. Why would he then do this if the consequences were what U say. I for one think Tony is helping save the heritage of the game by taking this step to ban jump cues. I do not think Tony would be making this change if he was the only one who had this opinion.
As far as using a jump cue and at the same time not supporting there use, a person would be at a big disadvantage if he or she did not take make use of it while every one else is. Not every one that uses a jump cue supports there use.
I respect U R opinion on the use of jump cues, I just do not agree.

 

[cuewhiz189]

jump cue ban

hey all....here is my simple out take on the ban of jump cues in any of the sports....it all stems from the governing bodies get tired of those that cant afford or use these items with any efficiency,they get tired of the whinning and crying of the lesser players and so therefore they try to appease everyone seeing as the jump cue is really only use effectively by better players....make it were the lesser player can compete....but in my opinion if you cant play any better safes then to allow a player to jump a ball you need to practice.....i think anyone should be allowed to use anything to enhance there game they can find.....does anyone tell tiger what clubs he can use and not use for any given shot.....NOPE.....well we as players should not have to suffer cause some people are to lazy to practice......not our fault.....if they cant take the loss then dont play.......i think players like earl strickland that jump balls with a full cue as well as most do with a jump cue will agree either play better safes or practice more......and to all those that dont agree and i feel like if you dont lock a player against a ball then the safe is not perfect and if a guy can jump out of it you deserve to get punished for not playing a better safe......pool is a great sport and it seems everytime something comes along to improve and make it better there are always gonna be those that will try to beat it back....why not give it the same chance as major league sports....i think people are scared if we had big time sponsors like nike,reebok,and many other big names that all the other so called major sports would have to take a back seat..........pool is much older and much more history than any of those that have big corporate support......just think wars could be settled with pool matches using a countries pool resources and not having to use lives to prove a point or settle something......i fully realize im a small fish in this big pond of ours but i wish alot more would take the time to look before they act........everyones friend, juston coleman

 

[Jimmy M.]

does anyone tell tiger what clubs he can use and not use for any given shot.....NOPE

Actually, YUP. There are standards of what equipment is allowed, and not allowed, in tournament play. This applies to both balls and clubs. Visit the USGA website to read up on their equipment standards. By the way, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to jump a ball with a jump cue. I've seen some "extremely average" players jump balls with jump cues with no problems. Take the jump cue out of their hands and they have no shot of getting over a ball. It takes *much* more skill to jump a ball with your playing cue, masse a ball, or even kick a ball with any sense of accuracy.

 

[cuewhiz189]

jimmy m.....maybe i should have been more detailed in the fact that no one tells him to use a a certain club on a certain shot....why cant pool have the same ability.......you gonna tell him to use a driver when he needs a wedge....nope.....so i hope this clarifies what i said and other wont try to pick out the simplistics but instead read it for what it said.....please dont try to over examine and be so nit picky......i guess no real pool player would disagree with what was said but yet support it......juston coleman

 

[Johnson]

I think that tony is movitvated partly by wanting to keep the integrity of the game in tact, and that john is motivated by mostly by greed. Who's to say which one is right or wrong. Personally I think that jump shots add a lil excitement to pool, give it another dimension, that would make it more appealing to non billiard enthusiasts. Does it take something away from the game? yes, but jump shots go both ways, I have made some nice jump shots with my playing cue. At a local level i'd say jump shots benefit the better player, most of you're stronger players are consistent at jumping balls. As far as damaging the felt, personally if i shot a jump shot and ripped/damaged the felt on a local bar table i would laugh about it because they charge $1 a game on extremely shitty tables. But if i was playing on a nicer table i would be cautious. I used to play in a ring game every week at a friends house, and out of respect for his really nice table we wouldn't play masse's or jumps. Other sports have somewhat simliar debates about equipment, i think it would be bad for pool in a business sense to widely ban jump cues. It's a matter of wanting to keep the game in tact as possible or being greedy. Any dimension you can add to pool in my mind would bring more new players into the game and help it's development.

Anyone who thinks pool should be played without ball in hand makes me want to choke them. Any game where u can intentionally foul and be rewarded for it, (by forcing you're opponent to kick at a ball is retarded.) Look at any other sports, any time you make a foul, you are penalized for it. It is basic common sense, every sport has defense/offense all but pool, you have these old school bar flys who won't accept the new format with ball in hand. It's a lot more prevelant than you think, I remember playing 9 ball with my dad once, who's not a bad player, and any foul was shot behind the line, this really bothers me. Think about the fact that you can be rewarded for fouling. There was a guy in town that i knew i could beat, he wanted me to play him for $100 a game, but he wouldn't play ball in hand, so i never played him for a 100, cause he will shoot at my ball first, hit no ball or just move the cue ball a few inches to play defense, he is so stupid playing defense without ball in hand, he's defeating the "old school" philosophy by playing defense. We was playing one night, i had an 8 ball shot and the pocket was over half covered up, and according to him, the 8 ball couldn't make contact with any other object balls lmao. I coulda just beat him down and left him for dead.
________

 

[yobagua]

I dont want to get in any ban or no ban controversy. I dont really care except when I get in personal competition. If a guy is going to tell me I cant use a jump cue then Im going to stipulate he cant use the jump shot. This is just me one on one. I respect Tony A and think he is doing some good organizing work. I really am more inspired by Efren who does not Jump shots but kicks and masse's instead. That has been more succesful for me. I think the last time I saw Earl he had a jump cue. When asked about this he said something like "you cant fight'em join 'em." And Jimmy I read your posts as I have respected them. You are right when you say no BFD but its also no BFD when you protest something you dont see as fair. If the USPPA banned break cues as well I think I as a player or sponsor or just fan have a right to protest if I pays my ways. No BFD.

 

[cuewhiz189]

just another comment.....if the banning of the jump cue comes to fruition.....whata bout the break cue or the break jump.....most players use a break cue just for the simple fact to protect there playing cues......just thing how someone would feel to be made to use there nicely shaped moori and their ivory ferruled cue to break with.....break cues are set up for that purpose......and a properly executed jump shot the cue doesnt really come in contact with the table anyways......i know if some one were to tell me i couldnt use a break cue and subject my playing cue with the same force used to break i would tell the to go straight to hell.....not going to subject my cues to what others think i should......again not the fault of us that have nice cues and dont want to damage them.......if you disagree with jump cues you should be against the shot itself.......but i know there are gonna always be those that have opinions that are different than mine and other but hey yall its our right to live and enjoy this sport.....dont get mad at the ideas of others.....juston coleman

 

[instroke]

I think that tony is movitvated partly by wanting to keep the integrity of the game in tact, and that john is motivated by mostly by greed. Who's to say which one is right or wrong.

I am not motivated by greed. My position on jump cues has remained the same as it was long before I entered the industry, long before I ever made a jump cue. I have been making exactly the same arguments on the internet for jump cues since 1997, two years before we ever came out with any jump cues. At that time I didn't even own a jump cue personally. Right now I don't even own a company that makes jump cues. I sell a few now and then but I certainly do not make my living from them. My income would hardly be affected if jump cues were banned universally today. My motivation lies in combating what I call shortsightedness and false pretense.

If Tony were truly motivated by preserving the "heritage" of the game then the USPPA would only play straight pool on 5x10 tables with 4 inch pockets. If he were that concerned about it then there would be no bar table play, no 4 1/2x9 foot tables allowed in USPPA play. He would have tournaments in Snooker, on 6x12 Rileys only of course and 3-Cushion. The jump shot would be banned and it would be call everything.

The fact is that pool is an evolving game. In fact, all sports are evolving with technology. Tony Annigoni does NOT play with a cue built in 1900 or even one built exactly like those made in 1900. Why not? Because he would be at a tremendous disadvantage against his peers if he did. Tony Annigoni likes to have a leather tip and chalk so he can spin the ball at will, he likes to have cloth made of worsted fibers so that it remains flat and fast. These are innovations that affect the way the game is played and they are not banned. The jump cue evolved from PLAYER'S ideas into the finely tuned tool it is today over a period of 20 years. This isn't something some clever guy just invented to make a quick buck. Hundreds of people from all over the world have put a lot of time and effort into creating many versions of a cue to perform a legal shot. This was done because of a NEED. No need, no jump cues.

Anyone can read the Billiard Encyclopedia to see that there is really no "heritage" to preserve unless everyone is willing to change a lot more than the use of jump cues.

I would cite relevant parts of the BE but my copy is out on loan and likely to never return.

John