USPPA & Jump Cue Ban.. by Tony Annigoni

Jump Cues


  • Total voters
    23
  • Poll closed .

Jimmy M.

Insomniac
Silver Member
yobagua said:
And Jimmy I read your posts as I have respected them. You are right when you say no BFD but its also no BFD when you protest something you dont see as fair.

I'm actually saying BFD to the people (perhaps, person?) who gets on here and just bad-mouths Tony. Sometimes I try to be somewhat politically correct and just address my posts to noone in particular. Maybe I should start being more specific here ;). I know Tony pretty well, and I have no doubt that he believes he is doing the right thing, and who knows, he might just be right.

To Justin: I am a real player. Earl is a real player too. Ask his opinion on Jump cues if you don't think I play good enough to disagree with you.
 

yobagua

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Jimmy the last time I saw Tony I bought him in the Calcutta. He seemed so genuinely pleased that someone would take him it made me smile. This was where Parica, Santos, and Davenport was in the field. I got to talking with him and he seemed really concerned about the state of pool. I came to like and respect him.
 

cuewhiz189

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
jimmy m.....first of i would like to say if i have singled you out and offended you i am sorry ,,,but to my recollection i didnt use any names ,so in saying that i must have hit home in just sayin,"practice more if you dont play well".....and the main thing is please pay enough attention as you do to other things to please spel my name correctly ....i spell it correctly for every one....it is not justin as is so common but please note,"JUSTON"....i would greatly appreciate to not be called out of my name as i havent done that to you or anyone else.....thanks, juston coleman
 
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Tom In Cincy said:
Now answer this please, would it really bother you if the West coast decided to have its own style of tournaments, set of rules and sponsers? Like the differences between the major leage orgainizations? (i.e. APA, TAP, BCA, VNEA) I think not.

The West Coast can do whatever it wants to. I have received many requests from West Coast promoters asking for sponsorship. I have sent a LOT of product to the West Coast. You can ban jump cues, I don't care. Just don't call them gimmicks or novelty cues in the process and don't insult the manufacturers and the rest of the organizations that CHOOSE to allow them.


The Pros (men or women) don't follow the BCA why should the rest of us?
The Pros have their own set of rules and standards.

The women use the WPA rules which are the same as the BCA rules. The men are subject to whatever whimsy the promoter of the week has, a'la banning jump cues at the Sands. As far as I know the UPA uses the BCA/WPA rules.


All of the organizations should have rules representatives based on their membership who get together and make up the rules. This way players could go anywhere and play pool without being handicapped by local rules. Mr. Annigoni says that golf is an improper comparison but he knows full well that he can play in an amateur golf tournament in Monterey or in Boston and be able to use the same equipment in both tournaments


John
 
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Jimmy M. said:
Actually, YUP. There are standards of what equipment is allowed, and not allowed, in tournament play. This applies to both balls and clubs. Visit the USGA website to read up on their equipment standards. By the way, it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to jump a ball with a jump cue. I've seen some "extremely average" players jump balls with jump cues with no problems. Take the jump cue out of their hands and they have no shot of getting over a ball. It takes *much* more skill to jump a ball with your playing cue, masse a ball, or even kick a ball with any sense of accuracy.

That's right. And Tiger also knows that WHEREVER he goes he is allowed to play with the same equipment. He is not subject to the whimsy of promoters or league owners.

You're right it doesn't take a lot of skill to jump with a jump cue. It takes a lot of skill to master it. I can have anyone drawing table length in a matter of minutes, I can have them kicking three rails in a matter of minutes but it will take them years to master those things. The jump cue only provides the ability to jump as the chalked tip provide the ability to spin the ball. Neither thing does the work only the player does that.

John
 
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Jimmy M. said:
I'm actually saying BFD to the people (perhaps, person?) who gets on here and just bad-mouths Tony. Sometimes I try to be somewhat politically correct and just address my posts to noone in particular. Maybe I should start being more specific here ;). I know Tony pretty well, and I have no doubt that he believes he is doing the right thing, and who knows, he might just be right.

To Justin: I am a real player. Earl is a real player too. Ask his opinion on Jump cues if you don't think I play good enough to disagree with you.

Mr. Annigoni is going to get his comments debated if he chooses to make them public. This is not bad mouthing, if you say it then be prepared to back it up. It's easy to fire off so-called press releases and position papers without actually participating in the discussions they ignite. Talk about your "Wizard of Oz"style move. I have no doubt that Mr. Annigoni believes he is right. That does not make him so.

As for Earl. I don't hear a lot of controversy over Earl's use of finger extensions. John Horsfall is also a player, you know the guy who won the Reno open TWICE. Ask him how he feels about jump cues. For every pro you can name who is against jump cues I'll name four who are for them.

I say to you what is the problem with allowing jump cues? What is the BFD? They DON'T harm the tables, at least not anymore than the same shots using a regular cue. They don't work by themselves. Most leagues, tours and tournaments allow them. The majority of players and fans like them. So what is the BFD?

Oh, it must be a personal bias I guess.

John
 

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
instroke said:
Mr. Annigoni is going to get his comments debated if he chooses to make them public. This is not bad mouthing, if you say it then be prepared to back it up. It's easy to fire off so-called press releases and position papers without actually participating in the discussions they ignite. Talk about your "Wizard of Oz"style move. I have no doubt that Mr. Annigoni believes he is right. That does not make him so.

As for Earl. I don't hear a lot of controversy over Earl's use of finger extensions. John Horsfall is also a player, you know the guy who won the Reno open TWICE. Ask him how he feels about jump cues. For every pro you can name who is against jump cues I'll name four who are for them.

I say to you what is the problem with allowing jump cues? What is the BFD? They DON'T harm the tables, at least not anymore than the same shots using a regular cue. They don't work by themselves. Most leagues, tours and tournaments allow them. The majority of players and fans like them. So what is the BFD?

Oh, it must be a personal bias I guess.

John

Gee John, I guess you think AZBilliards is some PRIVATE Club? sure it's PUBLIC. And I am sure that this info is now being debated in the pool rooms that have players that have internet access.

As far as Tony debating this in public, if you plan on being at the BCA trade show, I'm sure Tony would like to debate this with you.

If you are serious, please take advantage of this offer;
Call Tony Annigoni at 1 (800) 471-1164

He doesn't hide, he can be reached easily.

Discuss this with him..

We all know your views now. Tell Tony what you think of his view and position, if you really think your views are important.
 
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Position Paper – Jump Cues. By Tony Annigoni - ANSWER BY JOHN BARTON PART ONE.


In light of our recent change in policy discontinuing use of Jump Cues, I would like to elaborate on some of the reasons behind this decision:

Mr. Annigoni I must respectfully disagree with you. I know from your reputation that you are an accomplished player and billiard room proprietor. I am a billiard equipment manufacturer and a fair player. I say fair because I know that I am not championship caliber but I am good enough to give champions a workout once in a while. I have over 20 years of pool playing experience. I have been manufacturing and demonstrating jump cues since 1998. I have conservatively performed well over 100,000 jump shots and taught about 1000 people to jump using the jump cue.

First and foremost, despite assurances to the contrary by manufacturers, the proliferation of jump cues not only alters the tradition behind the game, but also without question affects the cloth and the overall playing condition of the table.

Over the last four years I have shown conclusively that jump cues do no harm to the table. The occasional jump shot whether performed with a jump cue or a regular cue does no more harm than a masse’ shot or a break shot.

I don’t know what tradition of the game you are referring to. Currently there are five games that I can name which are contested in both professional and amateur levels, nine-ball, 14.1, eight-ball, one pocket, and banks. Of these games the only ones that jump cues are really needed with any frequency are nine-ball and eight ball. Of those two games the rules have changed dramatically over the last 20 years to the point where not contacting the object ball carries a severe penalty and between good players often means the loss of game. So which tradition are you referring to? That jump cues alter the game is undeniable. So did the leather tip, chalk, rubber rails, phenolic balls, worsted cloth, table and pocket sizes.



Despite numerous attempts by self-proclaimed billiard experts to use golf as a comparison, golf is simply not an appropriate analogy. The playing surface in golf is not one that consists of a flat or regular substance throughout.

Having lived part time for 5 years in Monterey one of the most spectacular and historic golf Mecca’s of our time, I have had the opportunity to discuss this with numerous golf industry experts. It is a matter of fact that golf courses that have spectacular changes in elevation, surface, length of rough etc. are well prized for their difficulty as well as their drama and beauty. Currently the golf industry in general is struggling with improvements in technology that allow the average player to hit balls as straight and distant as Tiger Woods who regularly spends numerous hours correcting and perfecting mechanics tendencies in order to preserve the history and integrity of the golf record books as well as the mystery and right of passage required to attain his skill level.

The golf industry is struggling or the golf association is struggling with the technology issues? Do your golf friends favor going to one club for all shots? How about restricting all golfers to the equipment used in say 1950? You know very well that even if the average player can hit the ball as far as Tiger they still have no chance to win. And what happens when Tiger uses the new club? He becomes that much better.

As for the history and integrity of the game of golf and whether Tiger practices to maintain them I disagree again. Tiger started playing golf as a child and he doesn’t use the same equipment that Arnold Palmer did. He uses modern equipment that has been evaluated by an organization and approved for use. In contrast you are taking it upon yourself to speak for the sport and the industry.

Although you say that golf is a false comparison isn't it true that you can play in Boston or Monterrey and expect to be able to use the same equipment in both places? Why are you taking this away from your players?



I find it surprising that prominent members of the billiard inteligencia, might not consider snooker as a corroborating reference.

I don’t know who or what you are referring to. If you had bothered to research this topic on the billiard newsgroups you would have found out that the comparison to snooker has been discussed dozens of times over the last eight years.


They certainly have simplified the matter by outlawing jump shots and masse's. While swerve is allowed, any shot that could possibly result in a foul stroke is regulated against, including being allowed a free shot away from a frozen ball.

You fail to point out that snooker, as played in England and as used in your reference, has no requirement to contact a rail after the cueball strikes the object ball and also has no ball-in-hand penalty for fouls. I do not think that masse’ shots are prohibited but I could be wrong. The point is that snooker forbids the jump shot not the jump cue. It is a different game with different rules.

It is not surprising to me that snooker is frequently played in front of large crowds for 1st place money as large as 300,000 pounds, while billiards and pool languish in obscurity.
The great games as we knew them are currently reduced to sideshows such as trick shot competitions and glorified tit’s and ass reviews. The perhaps unintended result is the great players of our age being forced to travel the countryside, like aging gunslingers or displaced samurai known in feudal Japan as Ronin

It’s called the X-Games, Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey, Beach VolleyBall, Wrestling, American Gladiator and a host of other things that compete for American viewers attention. What great games are reduced to trick shot shows? None. Pool is shown quite a bit on TV in the dominant game of nine ball. Is it in the way that we hard core fans want it? Not yet but it is there. As for the Samurai analogy, I don’t suppose you have ever been exposed to the Snooker hustlers who roam Britain and the world. Any pool player has chosen their path they know what lies before them. This has nothing to do with jump cues.


I will certainly give the industry credit for lack of business sense in this case for supporting continued rules aberrations that relieve players from the need to develop skills one might acquire playing three cushion, carom, and snooker thus further reducing the need to continue to support these games financially. Fortunately, the rise of the playing contingents from billiard playing countries emerging on the pocket billiard scene may stem the tide as their skill in safety and escape from same, given today’s rules, increase their opportunity to dominate most fields.

The industry does not make the rules. The industry responds to the rules. The rules published by the BCA are made by a committee of players who review them yearly. Any game that is popular will be serviced by the industry. The industry, through it’s trade organization, the BCA is doing it’s part to support the popular games. There is no mandate for the industry to support Snooker or Three Cushion Billiards.
I don’t know what you mean about playing contingents from billiard playing countries but I assume you mean that these players will inspire pool players to learn to kick. First of all you should know that billiard players are usually the ones who adopt equipment that will help them win more. Billiard players usually bring at least four cues to the match. As for whether they can dominate 8 and 9 ball I beg to differ. As one who has played on league teams with world class billiard players I concur that they are phenomenal with the kicks and caroms but also human and beatable. For example, when the opponent is running racks all they can do is warm up the chair like anyone else.

Personally, I suppose it might have been the path of least resistance to simply have pursued snooker some 35 years ago. But that was then and this is now. Fortunately, the USPPA and Tony Annigoni are not beholden to any billiard industry entity other than our own, and will not be influenced by patrimony now or in the future.

Correct me if I am wrong but Snooker has never been a popular game in the United States. It is a fringe game imported by English gentlemen farmers. Billiards and Pocket Billiards were always the popular games. What does this have to do with jump cues?


End of part one.
 
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Position Paper – Jump Cues. By Tony Annigoni - ANSWER BY JOHN BARTON PART TWO.

My challenge to debate all sanctimonious self proclaimed billiard experts remains open. Perhaps the BCA Trade Show would be the proper forum. Heaven forbid anyone would have to justify their position in public rather than hidden behind the cloak of a computer screen a la The Wizard of Oz........Of course we could always have the manufacturers start making a table that isn't a 2 to 1 playing surface ratio, or one with sand as part of the composition so we could employ real pitching wedges as opposed to the surrogates in use now. I am sure that would go along well with the recent trend toward selling tables in home sauna outlets.

I don’t understand why you feel the need to insult the billiard industry or it’s organizations. From my standpoint it is you who are acting sanctimonious and promoting yourself as the expert and savior of the game’s history. On your website there is NO mention of the ban on jump cues other than this position paper which has been added only recently.

You disrespect the decisions of your fellow organizations yet you use their rulesets, i.e. Texas Express and the BCA. Are you so busy that you can't just write your own rules?

I will be more than happy to debate you publicly on this issue. I will prove your points are groundless.


Thank the universe that Billiard Digest is not the only " journalistic outlet" and I use the term loosely, not as loosely as the BCA specs for tables however............

And what specifications do you use? Do you force your participating rooms to adhere to any particular specifications? Have you ever even tried to be a member of the BCA committees on rules and specifications? On the USPPA website there are no equipment specifications, no rules on what a player can and can’t bring to the match, no rules on what they can and can’t use. What is there is a way to bet on pool through a prominent link on the homepage. The fact that you own the “bet on pool” website or have a financial interest in it wouldn’t be a teeny weeny conflict of interest would it? Can you say Enron?

When conditions exist that would have Ewa Mataya enter the Hall of Fame prior to Jose Parica, perhaps the greatest cueist of this or any age, the voice of reason must be heard. While no one would doubt the numerous contributions Ewa has made to the Industry, the differential in playing skill must be taken into account. If any thing, the Hall of Fame should not in my opinion be a popularity contest.

And again what does this have to do with jump cues. Your disdain for the BCA is apparent but this has nothing to do with jump cues. If Jose Parica had been voted in would the BCA be more credible in your eyes, would jump cues be allowed? For your information anyone can be nominated to the Hall of Fame committee and then they are voted on. The Hall of Fame committee includes billiard historians who are fully aware of who Jose Parica. Maybe no one nominated him. Maybe you ought to have nominated him.

But don't fret, I won't pick on the current billiard fraternity anymore, I am too busy making sure that everyone has a good reason to play billiards instead of just talking about it.

No. You are busy making sure that people talk about it. Jump cues are a hot topic. Your action becomes a topic for discussion. Although it is obvious to me that your action stems from personal bias rather than a factual basis you can be sure that your 15 minutes of fame will be hotly discussed.
In Closing, I would like to hazard that I highly doubt we would be enjoying the artistry of Efren Reyes kicking a ball three rails, clipping the edge of the object ball and re-snookering his opponent, had some patrimonious billiard manufacturer handed him a novelty cue at age 11, instead of walking him to a carom table to hone his skills

And I submit equally that had Efren needed to know how to jump then this would be something that he mastered and the world would be seeing incredible jump shots from him as well. If jump cues had been around when Efren was a child then he would have mastered their use and you would a jump cue proponent now. In fact, if jump cues had been around when Efren was a child then you wouldn’t think anything of them now. They would be part of the history you are trying to make us believe you are attempting to preserve. Efren, like Tiger started playing when he was a child and would have been great no matter what.

Sincerely,

John Barton
 

Jimmy M.

Insomniac
Silver Member
The words "fanatic" and "lunatic" come to mind first. After that I just think, "what the hell is going on around here?" :D
 

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
Jimmy M. said:
The words "fanatic" and "lunatic" come to mind first. After that I just think, "what the hell is going on around here?" :D


It looks like Mr. Barton has built his own SOAP Box.

maybe we've seen the last of him and his posts for awhile, since he has addressed Tony's positon.

Anyone for a game of pool?
 

Slasher

KE = 0.5 • m • v2
Silver Member
This is great, now if we could only get them to ban strapless dresses and teeth whitenening...........:D
 
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Tom In Cincy said:
It looks like Mr. Barton has built his own SOAP Box.

maybe we've seen the last of him and his posts for awhile, since he has addressed Tony's positon.

Anyone for a game of pool?

Hello Tom,

You started this with your repost of Tony's article. Sorry if you don't like the responses. You can get out of the thread anytime you choose to. You built the soap box by printing the article and your opinons on it. Don't print stuff you don't want to have discussed.

Now for a little woofin' - anytime you or anyone else on this board cares to play pool and see if I can back up what I say on the table I can be found at Beezer's Billiards in Russellville, Arkansas. If I am not there just ask the counterman to call me and I can usually be there inside of 30 minutes. I like to bet a couple hundred a set generally but I'll play for free if you don't feel comfortable gambling.

John
 
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Tom In Cincy said:
Gee John, I guess you think AZBilliards is some PRIVATE Club? sure it's PUBLIC. And I am sure that this info is now being debated in the pool rooms that have players that have internet access.

As far as Tony debating this in public, if you plan on being at the BCA trade show, I'm sure Tony would like to debate this with you.

If you are serious, please take advantage of this offer;
Call Tony Annigoni at 1 (800) 471-1164

He doesn't hide, he can be reached easily.

Discuss this with him..

We all know your views now. Tell Tony what you think of his view and position, if you really think your views are important.


Tony can debate me here if he wants to. IF I decide to go to the BCA show then I might call him. While I relish the thought of proving him wrong in public I am not going to go to the show just to do so. Since there are people on this board who claim to know Tony well I am sure that they can instruct him how to log on and become a member of this board.

And before you chastise me again Tom I would urge you to remember that this is a discussion board. If you are free to post your opinions then I am free to post mine. I answered each point I felt is relevant and each question addressed to me in as succinct a manner as I can manage.

I took your advice and emailed Tony exactly what I wrote here and invited him to participate.

Sincerely,

John Barton
 
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Jimmy M. said:
The words "fanatic" and "lunatic" come to mind first. After that I just think, "what the hell is going on around here?" :D

The words factual and topical come to mind for me. As in how about stating a position based on facts and staying on topic. What is going on is that we have a thread on a newsgroup which is a furtherance of the jump cue debate. If you don't want to read it then skip the thread - it's easy just bypass it and go on to the next one.

I mean what's the BFD. It's a discussion group and we are discussing right? If one guy can offer his opinion why can't another guy offer his? I mean surely it's no BFD to you when someone else speaks up is it? Or did you expect me and everyone else to STFU because YOU say it's no BFD?

Obviously you get some kind of a kick out it as you are still responding and still hanging around.

John
 

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
instroke said:
Hello Tom,

You started this with your repost of Tony's article. Sorry if you don't like the responses. You can get out of the thread anytime you choose to. You built the soap box by printing the article and your opinons on it. Don't print stuff you don't want to have discussed.

Now for a little woofin' - anytime you or anyone else on this board cares to play pool and see if I can back up what I say on the table I can be found at Beezer's Billiards in Russellville, Arkansas. If I am not there just ask the counterman to call me and I can usually be there inside of 30 minutes. I like to bet a couple hundred a set generally but I'll play for free if you don't feel comfortable gambling.

John

John, I don't think I ever stated that I didn't like the responses, but if you think so, I can't do anything about that. I could be wrong. I won't be the 1st time.

As far as woofing goes, win or lose at the table won't change my opinion.

And believe it or not, I was one of your customers. You sold me a Meucci Gambler cue a few years ago. With all your customers, I am sure you don't remember me.

And I got a very good deal.
 

Tom In Cincy

AKA SactownTom
Silver Member
instroke said:
Tony can debate me here if he wants to. IF I decide to go to the BCA show then I might call him. While I relish the thought of proving him wrong in public I am not going to go to the show just to do so. Since there are people on this board who claim to know Tony well I am sure that they can instruct him how to log on and become a member of this board.

And before you chastise me again Tom I would urge you to remember that this is a discussion board. If you are free to post your opinions then I am free to post mine. I answered each point I felt is relevant and each question addressed to me in as succinct a manner as I can manage.

I took your advice and emailed Tony exactly what I wrote here and invited him to participate.

Sincerely,

John Barton

Glad you emailed Tony. That should help.

tom
 
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Tom In Cincy said:
And, if this is a subject that you think is a NON-issue because it's a West Coast thing, by a two bit org. called the USPPA. why bother.. you must have more important things to do?

Because I have a day off :)

Dude I didn't make this a West Coast thing so don't put words in my mouth. The fact is that the USPPA is a relatively small organization compared to the rest of them. If I thought that what the USPPA does had any national influence then I would urge the jump cue people to unite and lobby for themselves. I find it laughable that Mr. Annigoni disparages the BCA in his position paper yet use the 1995 BCA rules according to the USPPA website. He also uses the Texas Express rules while at the same time putting them down for allowing jump cues.

What should I think of an organization that uses other organization's work and intellectual property but conversely insults them and their decisions? To be fair, I think the USPPA is a wonderful system and it's only handicap is Tony Annigoni if he continues in this vein.

John
 
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Tom In Cincy said:
John, I don't think I ever stated that I didn't like the responses, but if you think so, I can't do anything about that. I could be wrong. I won't be the 1st time.

As far as woofing goes, win or lose at the table won't change my opinion.

And believe it or not, I was one of your customers. You sold me a Meucci Gambler cue a few years ago. With all your customers, I am sure you don't remember me.

And I got a very good deal.

I sold you a Meucci? Are you sure it was me? Instroke generally doesn't sell anything but Instroke cases and Bunjee Jumpers. Now Instrokes are distributed through Sterling Gaming and Bunjees go through Bunjee Billiards Int. Well, I am glad you got a good deal - hope Tony doesn't ban Meuccis :))


My only point is that within a thread I should be allowed to respond to whatever I feel like responding to. I feel as though Tony made several points that needed to be rebutted for accuracy's sake. Along the way several other issues and questions were raised and asked which needed to be answered.

John
 
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