Can this disagreement be settled? I was shooting on the 8 ball and called the corner pocket. Just to the side of the pocket was my opponent's ball. Two possibilities loomed; Either make a clean shot in the pocket or clip the opponent's ball with the 8 ball on it's way into the pocket. My opponent says if I clip his ball it's a foul even if I call the clip and make the shot. I say it's not a foul as long as the pocket is called. I say the 8 ball in the pocket off his ball is legal even if I don't call the shot off his ball. If it is a foul and illegal, what's the penalty? The BCA rules I saw states "A combination shot can never be used to legally pocket the 8-ball, except when the 8-ball is the first ball contacted in the shot sequence". This seems pretty clear to me. Other 8-ball rules I looked at were a bit vague on this or not addressed at all. As it turned out, I made a clean shot into the pocket. Are there varying opinions on this?
What's the rule on this 8-ball shot?
- Thread starter brazzman
- Start date
The "real" rule is "called ball in called pocket, period". You can miss, have it go 4 rails and into the pocket you called and be OK. In your situation, you don't even have to call the 8 off his ball, either way it goes in is good. And the 8 ball hitting the other ball on way in is not a foul. But that is only true in "real" rules. Once you start to go into local randomness all true rules go out the window.
Some places that have mostly players that learned to play in bars and from others who don't know the rules try to say that anything a ball touches has to be called. Another ball brushed on way? Need to call it. Rub a rail on the way to pocket? That is called a "small bank" hehe , and you need to call it. Any real players don't play that way though unless forced into it by local rules.
So by standard rules that you will see a pro play with, if you hit the 8 ball first and it goes in the right pocket, it can hit anything on the way in.
Some places that have mostly players that learned to play in bars and from others who don't know the rules try to say that anything a ball touches has to be called. Another ball brushed on way? Need to call it. Rub a rail on the way to pocket? That is called a "small bank" hehe , and you need to call it. Any real players don't play that way though unless forced into it by local rules.
So by standard rules that you will see a pro play with, if you hit the 8 ball first and it goes in the right pocket, it can hit anything on the way in.
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No foul.
Not a foul. You win. Good shooting. The rules your opponent had were in his head. Because they reside in in head, they are hard to access for anyone but him.
Not a foul. You win. Good shooting. The rules your opponent had were in his head. Because they reside in in head, they are hard to access for anyone but him.
BCA Rule 1-16 1.You must designate the called ball and the called pocket before each shot. You may make the designation verbally or by a clear, unambiguous gesture.You are not required to call obvious shots. You are not required to indicate incidental kisses and caroms, or incidental cushion contacts that do not constitute bank shots or kick shots. Not all kisses, caroms and cushion contacts are incidental. If a dispute arises as to whether a shot was obvious based on such contact, the referee is the sole judge. (AR p. 68, 79)
Your example is the EXACT reason I tell every bar bettor the following before we play:
"The rules are call pocket, the ball going into the pocket, no kisses or banks or combos need to be called, only the ball getting into this pocket."
Everyone understands that beforehand.
However, people start to get rowdy and argue that and I pull the bar rule out that I'm on the table so you have to play by my rules and that shuts them up or I lose the action. I'm better for either solution.
"The rules are call pocket, the ball going into the pocket, no kisses or banks or combos need to be called, only the ball getting into this pocket."
Everyone understands that beforehand.
However, people start to get rowdy and argue that and I pull the bar rule out that I'm on the table so you have to play by my rules and that shuts them up or I lose the action. I'm better for either solution.
Also note that pocketing the 8-ball by kissing or caroming it off your opponent's ball is not a combination shot.
Agreed to all of the above.
Once I've explained BCA-style, complete with BIH rules, to bar bangers.....they all say the same thing, "Hell, that makes the game too easy. Anyone can play great under those rules."
What they fail to realize is that when serious players step up to using BCA rules, you don't have balls being shot....missing it by a whole diamond.....and then coming another 3-4 rails to go back where you called it. Can it happen? Sure. Have I seen it? Yes. But only executed by bangers and it's like once every 2 years.
The other thing they fail to realize is that when you give BIH to a great player, yea, you're screwed. If you give BIH to that complaining bar banger, you're probably still going to get at least 2 more shots. Maybe more.
I'd love to go back in time and sterilize the person that came up with "bar rules". Calling short rails on pocketing banks and every little clip, bump, detail, etc. or the shot is no good......yet, you can kick at an OB.......hit nothing......and there's no foul and no penalty. You can literally bump balls back and forth all day long.
It's obscene, really.
And there will always be someone who says, "Well, if you don't like those rules, then don't go to places that play by them."
Which is totally cool........because I don't. Haven't in 2 years, with no plans to ever do so in the future. Lord knows I don't miss it.
Once I've explained BCA-style, complete with BIH rules, to bar bangers.....they all say the same thing, "Hell, that makes the game too easy. Anyone can play great under those rules."
What they fail to realize is that when serious players step up to using BCA rules, you don't have balls being shot....missing it by a whole diamond.....and then coming another 3-4 rails to go back where you called it. Can it happen? Sure. Have I seen it? Yes. But only executed by bangers and it's like once every 2 years.
The other thing they fail to realize is that when you give BIH to a great player, yea, you're screwed. If you give BIH to that complaining bar banger, you're probably still going to get at least 2 more shots. Maybe more.
I'd love to go back in time and sterilize the person that came up with "bar rules". Calling short rails on pocketing banks and every little clip, bump, detail, etc. or the shot is no good......yet, you can kick at an OB.......hit nothing......and there's no foul and no penalty. You can literally bump balls back and forth all day long.
It's obscene, really.
And there will always be someone who says, "Well, if you don't like those rules, then don't go to places that play by them."
Which is totally cool........because I don't. Haven't in 2 years, with no plans to ever do so in the future. Lord knows I don't miss it.
This^. It's one HUGE reason I pretty much gave up 8 ball when I started playing in pool rooms, no bar tables, playing with people who didn't play 8 ball. I played with people in NYS who never played on bar tables, never played 8 ball, and that was after 50 years of playing.
Miss Spico
Registered
You got it right as far as I'm concerned. Call the pocket, hit the 8 ball first. You win!
Ball, pocket. Game over!
Maybe not. Which rules did your opponent think he was playing by? If they were the rules of "The Stagger Inn," where you were playing, you will have to ask the bartender what the rule is. That may vary by shift. If your opponent thinks he was playing by some standard rule set, we will need to know what it is. If you think you can convince him to play by the World Standardized Rules, you probably should take in a copy for your next match and pre-highlight the parts he probably will have trouble with.
The WSR say ball and pocket and everything else is irrelevant.
Good luck.
You're right Bob. This guy is an old timer know-it-all. I'm just an old timer. He was convinced he was going by "pro tourny rules". Or so he said. The irony is that we were playing anything but "pro tourny rules" -- just banging them in until this shot came up. And I have already printed up the pertinent lines about this in the World Standardized Rules that I quoted in my post and highlighted in red and in my hip pocket! Thanks all for clearing this up.
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A bowling alley in south central SD used to have "Straight 8 Ball" tournaments. I imagine that the rules involved calling all kisses and bumps or the lack of.
It would be ironic, but logical to apply the same attention to detail to the cue ball on each shot. Call how far you are going to draw or follow, or maybe a x inch diameter circle for the cue ball to end up at. Failure to do so would be a foul and loss of turn.
It would be ironic, but logical to apply the same attention to detail to the cue ball on each shot. Call how far you are going to draw or follow, or maybe a x inch diameter circle for the cue ball to end up at. Failure to do so would be a foul and loss of turn.
Sadly, I often play in bars where "clean" calls are required. No bumps off an opponent's balls are allowed unless called before the shot. If the ball might touch on the way in you have to call it either touching or not touching on the way ... there is no middle ground. Hence, the question about your 8 ball shot. Although honestly, in the places I play, you can not touch/carom/billiard on an opponent's ball even with a call when shooting the 8... it always has to be clean.
Bar rules are crazy, yo! At least you didn't have to play "last shot is always opposite hand and one foot has to be in the air" rules.
Bar rules are crazy, yo! At least you didn't have to play "last shot is always opposite hand and one foot has to be in the air" rules.
You aren't making a combonation shot in the scenario you describe, you are performing a billiard/carom. The shot you describe is legal. The question is whether you are playing call shot (in which case you would have to call the billiard) or call pocket.
You aren't making a combonation shot in the scenario you describe, you are performing a billiard/carom. The shot you describe is legal. The question is whether you are playing call shot (in which case you would have to call the billiard) or call pocket.
In real rules, even playing a combo on the other guy's ball is legal as long as you contact yours first. I played the 8 thought another ball that was hanging in the pocket before, as long as you are dealing with someone who played pool before outside a 1 mile radius formed by his house and local bar, it's a good shot. Just hit the shot with draw, make sure the balls contact solidly and the 8 will follow the other ball in for the win.
Yes, yes that's an amazing shot if you haven't seen before. It's only come up a few times in my limited experience ( only been playing seriously for about 5-6 years). Somehow I figured out how to do it with, like you say, draw on cue ball. My opponents were a bit dumbfounded.