Why is the APA so frowned upon?

[Druid]

I played in APA for a while. It has plenty of room for improvement... the biggest problem I have with it in my local league is that too many of the bars we play in only have one table. It sucks hanging out all night just to play one set.

Still, the APA is one of the only things doing pretty well in the US pool world and brings the joy of pool to a great number of people. Compared to "Professional Pool" which has become an oxymoron.

Not everyone wants to gamble or take the game so seriously.

 

[APA Operator]

Well , Lyn , you'd think that . But it's the stated position of APA Operator that lower handicapped players don't NEED to improve , and that their Captains/Coaches SHOULDN'T be helping them to improve !

Yup , sounded crazy to me too ! follow the thread . . . .
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=2703763#post2703763

If you want to understand APA Operator's REAL position, make sure you read far enough to get to this post:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2704566&postcount=67

Lyn did it exactly as I hope everyone does. Ask the player if they would like to learn something. I'm guessing Lyn would have done the proper thing had the player declined, too.

 

[Runnintable]

Bars

APA is amateur pool. It brings people into the sport. Where they take it from there is up to the individual.
The best that I have experienced so far in the APA was an in-house league at a pool hall.
We were given a practice table for the night and a table to play the match on.
This in-house league was at a good size pool hall with 28 tournament (4 1/2'x9') Brunswick GC's. I personally enjoy playing on Tournament size tables for competition.

The APA overall is primarily a bar table league, all upper level tournaments are played on bar tables (3 1/2'x7')​

8-ball on a bar table is one of my favorite games, and it still holds my attention even after all this time. I just don't like the one table bars that much anymore. Some of the places we are subjected to play at are straight up dives and dumps.

I am learning how to teach the game to the people on my team and whomsoever is receptive (i.e. other teams) As long as it is respectful, I enjoy it.​

I do not have the time to Captain a team, but it is enjoyable to be looked upon for my hard earn pool knowledge. I do have to say that it is very satisfying
for me to see a lower skill level impart some pool wisdom during a match that I taught them. Or see the light bulb go off as they get a break through in their game.

 

[lorider]

i also play an apa in house league at a pool hall. we just started a new session last week. when i got there last sunday i found out they 2 more teams. guess what ? we dont have enough bar tables for all the teams that. instead of having byes for 2 teams every week our lo decided each week 2 teams will rotate playing on a 9 footer. im the lucky one on my team. im the only one that has ever played on a 9 footer before. heard quite a few other players on other teams saying they have never played on one either. this session oughta be interesting !

 

[Paul Schofield]

I don't ever recall seeing someone just rear back and slam the balls to see what drops.

I have seen a little slop, every once in a while. Certainly not more than once a match. Maybe it's just our area that seems to have a mature attitude about this, and maybe it's the rest of the country that lives in slop-city.

Excuse me but you are just flat out wrong. You see slop almost every game. Players rear back and slam the balls on the break every game just to see what drops. Eight-Ball opens with a slop shot. The whole country lives in slop-city! When good players are competing at Eight-Ball, The most critacal shot in the game is the break and yes, it is a slop shot. If a good player slops a ball in, he is out, if he does not, oh-well.

 

[cardiac kid]

Excuse me but you are just flat out wrong. You see slop almost every game. Players rear back and slam the balls on the break every game just to see what drops. Eight-Ball opens with a slop shot. The whole country lives in slop-city! When good players are competing at Eight-Ball, The most critacal shot in the game is the break and yes, it is a slop shot. If a good player slops a ball in, he is out, if he does not, oh-well.

OK Paul,

We know how you stand on 9 ball with your unique break and play system. You do not appear to appreciate the opening of a game of 8 ball. You must be just itching to revise the standard 8 ball rules then. Care to elaborate? The rest of us eight ball players are holding our breath with anticipation!

Lyn

 

[RThomas82]

i didnt realize areas payed different weekly dues . here in md we only pay 7.00 a week . i know we have to go thru a playoff, then qualifiers, then triannuals just to get to vegas. i personally think its a good night out with friends to have some fun and drink a beer.I used to hate shooting in the apa but in my area we dont have bca , i think we have 1 tap league but thats about it,i know we get paid each time we advance thru the playoffs and each qualifier so its not that bad.

 

[Maniac]

Excuse me but you are just flat out wrong. You see slop almost every game.

To get back to this subject a bit I quoted these two sentences. I guess that yes justadub, maybe in your APA area there is a bit more "maturity" or just a basic respect for the game so that you do not see this ball-slamming phenomenon very often. But.......I have seen it on a fairly regular basis in my area and it is usually the lower skill level teams/players that employ its use. An example (and this is a no-BS story): In the first round of the playoffs last Thursday night (9-ball) the deciding match came down to their SL2 and my SL4. Whenever their SL2 didn't have a decent shot but could hit the object ball, he would just slam the sh*t out of them. For the match, he ended up making 4 balls doing this (four separate occasions). To top that off, he "lucked in" 5 other points (including one nine-ball) by just missing his intended shot and hitting another ball in (and no, these were NOT intended carom shots I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the kind of shot that is missed and the cueball goes two or three rails and kicks something in somewhere). So, for the night, out of his 19 needed points, he basically sh*t in HALF of them!!! I'm not whining, just saying. Needless to say, this rattled my SL4 to the point to where by the time she recovered, it was too late.

We also have a 9-ball team of ladies called the Billiard Babes who are a team of mostly 3's and 2's (and one SL1). They are notorious for slamming balls. Almost always if the lowest numbered object ball is anywhere near the nine-ball, they slam the OB into the nine hoping for the two points and the break.

So.....yes, I do see a lot of slop in my APA leagues, especially the 9-ball division.

And.....Lyn, I do not see anything wrong with nor any need to change the BCA rule concerning the break in 8-ball. I wish the APA would change the rule to the BCA way. If you make a ball, you stay at the table. If you do not make a ball, you sit down. Always open after the break regardless. What else can you do that doesn't bastardize the game entirely (yes Paul, I've seen the "other" ways described and I do not like them).

Maniac

 

[cardiac kid]

Lyn, I do not see anything wrong with nor any need to change the BCA rule concerning the break in 8-ball. I wish the APA would change the rule to the BCA way. If you make a ball, you stay at the table. If you do not make a ball, you sit down. Always open after the break regardless. What else can you do that doesn't bastardize the game entirely (yes Paul, I've seen the "other" ways described and I do not like them).Maniac

Don't know where you get the idea I'm for a rule change. Paul Schofield runs a great tournament in Erie, PA where the breaker get the first shot at a rack regardless if a ball was made on the break or not. My comment was tongue in cheek. Nothing is perfect. Regardless of whose rules you play by.

Slop is a part of the game of pool. Always will be. Years ago I played a good friend a game of 14.1. He attempted a break shot. Jammed the object ball in a pocket. It hung. He hit it so hard, the cue ball ran three rails around the table and knocked the original ball in. So much for the purity of 14.1. Slop is going to happen. Even with called ball and pocket in force!

If a player does not know how to make a shot or play position or play safe, what are their options? Smack the balls. It's an inevitable result. Be happy they are supporting the game we all love!

Lyn

 

[AlinEdm]

Finished reading through my first APA thread!

Pro:

Venue: (area specific) Four of the nine teams in my division play out of the same club on 9’ tight pocket tables, which means the majority of the time my $10.00 green fees gives me a good competitive table and a challenge table, sometimes two, to play on every Tuesday. When I looked up the BCA venues in my area they are all bar-box.

Con:

Vague Skill Levels: Twice now at Wild Card tournaments, different members of my team have had their SLs raised, only to be brought down again at the start of the next session. As I mentioned above, since our team plays on more difficult tables, I wonder if we will also be disqualified if we go to Vegas where I hear the play is on a smaller table. Is this true? Am I being paranoid?

As for sandbagging, we mark intentional misses as defensive shots even if the other team does not; its all we can do.

 

[Paul Schofield]

OK Paul,

We know how you stand on 9 ball with your unique break and play system. You do not appear to appreciate the opening of a game of 8 ball. You must be just itching to revise the standard 8 ball rules then. Care to elaborate? The rest of us eight ball players are holding our breath with anticipation!

Lyn

Lyn - I don't want to high-jack this thread. I only wanted to comment. People should think a little further. This is a topic for another day.

Thanks for the compliment in the later post. Our next event is February 26. I try to make them a little better each time. The players have been very appreciative and have made the events very enjoyable for me. I look forward to the events.

 

[Maniac]

Paul Schofield runs a great tournament in Erie, PA where the breaker get the first shot at a rack regardless if a ball was made on the break or not.
Lyn

Not arguing by any means, just making comments for the sake of conversation:

If he doesn't make a ball and has absolutely NO shot, he may not want to shoot again. He may have just gotten penalized for simply not making a ball, unless of course he has a jam-up safety available to shoot.

If we are trying to take luck out of the equation, would it be a better rule that if no ball was made on the break, the incoming player has the option of taking the table as is or giving it back to the opponent (in case HE absolutely has no shot)? Although I'm not one to monkey around with the rules, this IMO seems like the best solution. I have never liked the idea of letting a player shoot after missing (or not making) a ball on his/her previous shot, even if it was a break shot. The only exception is the 10-ball rule that seems to be gaining steam where if you miss a "called" shot, your opponent has the option to shoot or give the table back (and usually, a "snookered" ball is involved).

To get back to APA issues, I utterly HATE the APA rule concerning the break where you have to take solids if you make a solid. Uggghhh!!!

FWIW, I do not get all bent-out-of-shape on anything concerning the APA (rules, slop, etc.) anymore. I used to, but I just let it all go and now I enjoy it again. It is what it is, a beginners/social league that just so happens to also have some very good poolplayers in it. About the only thing that sort of torques my jaw anymore is poor sportsmanship/etiquette. Unfortunately, there is still plenty of that :frown:.

Maniac

 

[lorider]

apa ? i dont like slop. bca ? i dont like 8 ball spotted if made on break. dont like if i scratch on break opponent get ball in hand anywhere on table. dont like if oppenent makes a solid starts shooting stripes (i prefer take what you make ). tap ? the best of both. plus im in the money at the end of every session. 1400.00 2 sessions ago for 2nd place. 600.00 last session for 4th place. never got any money in bca even tho we came in 2nd twice. well i did get 40.00 for winning apa top gun tourney and an invite to the regionals. i am not going to bash any league. they all have their pluses and minuses. i have a good time playing in all 3 leagues. there is not a league out there that will make 100% of the players 100% happy all the time.

 

[btoneill]

apa ? i dont like slop. bca ? i dont like 8 ball spotted if made on break. dont like if i scratch on break opponent get ball in hand anywhere on table. dont like if oppenent makes a solid starts shooting stripes (i prefer take what you make ).

Don't forget new BCAPL rules gives ball in hand if you scratch while shooting the 8 (as long as you don't also put the 8 in on the same shot).

Brian

 

[lorider]

thanks for reminding me of that rule btoneill. been a few years since i played bca. they are not in my town anymore. the leagues here are apa and tap. i am playing in both right now. the rules you and i mentioned pertain to 8 ball. dont forget the pushout rule in 9 ball. when i first started playing bca 9 ball and my opponent called pushout i said , say what ? my captain called time out and explained the rule to me. lol

 

[smoooothstroke]

not frowned apon

No league offers as much to gain as the APA. There are so many ways to get to Vegas and so many ways to make some money. All I hear is that it's "slop pool" and "everyone is overrated" from the local players that don't want to join. My counter to the first is always "Well the pro's don't call their shots", to which they usually reply "Well no one in it is a pro, are they?" I play in TAP also and yeah, almost everyone in TAP is rated a skill level below what they would be in the APA but if everyone is overrated, how is that unfair?

I don't think its frowned apon,more like chuckled at.As far as getting to Vegas,anyone in the U.S who doesn't mind flying can get there easily and cheaply.

The APA serves a purpose but its not for everyone.The APA is a thriving buisness and while the format does not encourage improving your game it does introduce many new players to the game who will go on to become competitive and/or recieve a lifetime of enjoyment from the game.I like to have fun knocking the APA but where I play the APA helps to keep the lights on.

 

[justadub]

Excuse me but you are just flat out wrong. You see slop almost every game. Players rear back and slam the balls on the break every game just to see what drops. Eight-Ball opens with a slop shot. The whole country lives in slop-city! When good players are competing at Eight-Ball, The most critacal shot in the game is the break and yes, it is a slop shot. If a good player slops a ball in, he is out, if he does not, oh-well.

Maybe where you play.

I just love how you tell me I'm wrong. You don't see me play. Or the people I play with. It's attitudes like yours that get me angry. (As angry as I'm willing to allow myself to be reading a forum, which isn't that angry, I suppose.)

You are entitles to your opinion, just like anyone else. But you have no right whatsoever to say that I'm wrong about what I see in my league experience in my part of the world. That is beyond unreasonable.

I'm new to pool, played APA for about 18 months now. So you would be accurate at saying I don't have a lot of experience. But I'm not blind, and I'm not a kid with no perspective on things. I keep score regularly, so I'm actively watching the matches. When I say that I don't see slop very often, that's what I mean. And I play APA every week, how about you?

When I say I don't see people rear back and slam the balls, that's what I mean. Because it doesn't happen. Not in league play here. I've seen people take a flyer when faced with nothing remotely easy, but to just crack'em? Nope.

Perhaps this bunch of back-woods hicks out here in the country are a bit more civilized than I gave us credit for, since I can't believe people act like Paul describes, at least on a regular basis.

Sheesh. Next I'm a liar, I suppose. You can say you don't believe me all you want, but that I'm wrong?

 

[sfleinen]

Maybe where you play.

I just love how you tell me I'm wrong. You don't see me play. Or the people I play with. It's attitudes like yours that get me angry. (As angry as I'm willing to allow myself to be reading a forum, which isn't that angry, I suppose.)

You are entitles to your opinion, just like anyone else. But you have no right whatsoever to say that I'm wrong about what I see in my league experience in my part of the world. That is beyond unreasonable.

I'm new to pool, played APA for about 18 months now. So you would be accurate at saying I don't have a lot of experience. But I'm not blind, and I'm not a kid with no perspective on things. I keep score regularly, so I'm actively watching the matches. When I say that I don't see slop very often, that's what I mean. And I play APA every week, how about you?

When I say I don't see people rear back and slam the balls, that's what I mean. Because it doesn't happen. Not in league play here. I've seen people take a flyer when faced with nothing remotely easy, but to just crack'em? Nope.

Perhaps this bunch of back-woods hicks out here in the country are a bit more civilized than I gave us credit for, since I can't believe people act like Paul describes, at least on a regular basis.

Sheesh. Next I'm a liar, I suppose. You can say you don't believe me all you want, but that I'm wrong?

justadub:

Grain of salt, guy. Water off a duck's back. That was just Paul taking the opportunity to offer the usual and expected sales pitch of his "No Cornflakes" rules. You know, the breaker continues his/her turn at the table whether a ball drops on the break or not. The "No Cornflakes" rules have nothing to do with this thread, but the word "slop" was the open mailslot in the door for the pitch to slide through.

You'll see the "No Cornflakes" pitch wherever the word "slop" is mentioned. I wouldn't worry about it.

-Sean

 

[gunzby]

It's a simple issue of Pros vs Cons

Pros of the APA:

It gets people playing. Some of these people will get the bug and some will stay weekend warriors. If 1/10th of those weekend warriors turn into die hard fans who are chomping at the bit to be better are you going to be mad at the APA because of it. Better yet are you going to shake your head at the other 9/10ths that stay weekend warriors, who keep coming into a pool hall spending money week after week putting a little more money into the pool halls cash register?
(a) Those people playing might also just buy a new cue, case, video, book, tip tool etc etc etc and not even get that bug...chuckle chuckle.
(b) Just thought I'd add if it wasn't obvious that those weekend warriors and die hards spend money in those pool halls and through scientific theory I will say that might keep a pool hall open.

Some professional pool players benefit from the APA:

Now I do know that number is very low, but it is still true. We all know that Jeanette Lee is sponsored, but so is Kelly Fisher and Ewa Laurance is actually a LO. I'm sure that a few others benefit, but I will only list those that I know of.

Cons of the APA

The Rules:

I don't like the 23 rule.....especially for 9 ball. This rule does promote breaking up teams which of course creates more teams, making the league expand which is great, but it does break them up. You could just circumvent that rule by just starting up a Masters team and deal with the tough road ahead of you.

Sandbagging:

This goes for anything, in any sport, anywhere that is handicapped. If you have a handicapped tournament anywhere on the planet you will find a bagger. If there is a benefit to hiding your skill you will find someone taking advantage of that and that is all I have to say about that.

No green fees for the pool hall:

This is actually the only real problem I have with the APA. More or less the LO pays a franchise fee without a building. The buildings are provided free of charge, pool tables are provided free of charge and they just collect money along with paperwork etc etc etc. I've always felt that the pool halls should have a guaranteed benefit for providing everything outside of paperwork.



So far as this league, or that league promotes players getting better I will just say that is a huge load of bull. A league isn't going to push me to be better.....I am going to push me to be better and the league is just another outlet for me to further doing something that I want to do. Are the naysayers really going to tell me that the weekend warrior is somehow going to reach an epiphany because they joined the BCA, or any other league?

*edit* I also don't like the no push out rule and no jump cues. I know how to push and use a jumper so lemme have my fun

 

[Snapshot9]

Leagues

APA has no luck trying to start a league where I live. We have Valley and BCA and inhouse leagues.

Playing in the APA (I played it when it was the Busch league) is like trying to drive with the brakes on. You eventually get to where you want, just not as fast as other leagues.