Wood Shaft v CF

[garczar]

dont like cf because of the surprises it gives when using english. after visiting with a well known pro he explained in detail the didderence between cf and wood. what makes the most sense is the consistency of wood throughout versus no consistency from the outside of cf to the middle of cf. a more consistent hit with wood versus surpise results with cf.

CF shafts do NOT increase/decrease spin. Again, what is 'consistency' in a shaft? How do you measure this? Its basically impossible to put numbers on. Its all feel/subjective. LOTS of pros(most these days) use them. I know, they get them free but if they didn't perform or were 'inconsistent' they wouldn't use them. I've yet to hear one good player complain about 'spin surprises' while playing with them. Power? Yes, even a hack like me saw greater power but spin? No. Spin is a product of tip-offset. Dr.Dave and others WAY smarter than me have covered this at length.

 

[boogieman]

99.9% of the time, when you are blaming the equipment, it’s 100% you.

"It's the nut behind the butt."

 

[Welder84]

So, I was at the pool hall minding my own beeswax when a player starts telling me a story about spending a half hour talking to a *very* famous player (don't ask, you would definitely know of him).

The take away from this conversation was two-fold: first, that wood moved/changed enough in different environments to noticeably effect play and second; not all CF shafts, even from the same manufacturer, played the same so players need to try them out and choose the shaft they like.

Personally, I take no issue with the second point. But I really have to wonder about a wood shaft changing enough from say, a bone dry Las Vegas environment, to a New Orleans cookin' a big pot of crawfish in the back environment.

What says you?

Lou Figueroa

I believe that wood definitely plays differently based on the environment it's in. Especially regular wood shafts (engineered wood shafts and conical taper shafts would be affected less). That has been my experience.

Earl Strickland actually spoke about this issue at length a few years back.

 

[boogieman]

I'm not saying equipment doesn't matter, but the humidity in the pool room will change the play 10X what any differences in the shaft will. At some point chasing this stuff becomes diminishing returns syndrome. If a particular "aspect" can change the outcome 0.01% it's probably not worth chasing. You'd be better off working on something that can change 1%. Of course it's fun to debate this stuff and learn about it, but it's pretty much not useful in the real world and to us mere mortal players.

 

[Duane Tuula]

Wood will change. Modify it by baking and it doesn't. Kielwood plays fine.

 

[garczar]

I'm not saying equipment doesn't matter, but the humidity in the pool room will change the play 10X what any differences in the shaft will. At some point chasing this stuff becomes diminishing returns syndrome. If a particular "aspect" can change the outcome 0.01% it's probably not worth chasing. You'd be better off working on something that can change 1%. Of course it's fun to debate this stuff and learn about it, but it's pretty much not useful in the real world and to us mere mortal players.

Agree big time. Humidity effects the cloth and rail rubber infinitely more than it does shafts, any shafts.

 

[Rusty Dutch]

Interesting thread, and very good comments. Does wood "change" based upon it's environment? Well, it depends on the kind of wood, but to some extent, yes, it does. In this context, vis a vis a shaft, it could, but it would be very slightly. Noticeable? Perhaps to the keenest of feel, sensitivity, etc. Even then, it might be over the long-term. However, what will happen, over time, is that the structural integrity of the wood will change. There's texture, strength, feel, vibration, and more, in the wood and it changes due to impact, use, time, environment, humidity, temperature, and again, more. There could be a diminishing of the structural integrity, and once could definitely feel that over time, or immediately if there was a change or break down in the structural integrity of the wood. No different than with the old-fashion tennis rackets, or wood hockey sticks.

In addition, machine made or hand made, each piece of wood is different, even if it comes from the same tree, cutting, section, etc. However, go from the highest of altitudes to the lowest, the most humid environment to the lowest, and so on -- the change initially will be unnoticeable to most. Over time, perhaps, but what is more likely being felt or noticed is that change to the structural integrity. Is that change due to environment? Yes, again, to some extent, but initially it's slight.

As far as the CF shafts -- I know nothing about them! LOL. I am actually wanting to read and learn about them. I hear about high deflection, low deflection, and I have no idea what that means either, LOL. But I am interested in learning about CF as an alternative. My knee jerk reaction is -- wood butt and CF shaft -- how does that work? But then again, like I said, I know nothing about it, LOL. I am thinking something like -- half the hockey stick is CF and half is wood? Hmmmmm. Confusing to me, LOL. Thanks again everyone!

All wood is susceptible to environmental change, even woods that do ok without a finish such as wenge, teak and rosewood. But your average wood shaft is lacquered and sealed to mitigate changes in humidity, heat and cold.

As wood ages it loses its moisture content. Eventually becoming less susceptible to environmental change. In the guitar industry we have been messing about with roasting woods, particularly maple, to mimic this process and remove most moisture content. It results in an extremely stable guitar neck that is very robust and isn’t particularly impacted by seasonal change and weather swings.

I’m doubtful whether this will pick up for cue shafts, given the pool community’s appetite for carbon fiber, and maple gets a little brittle after this cooking treatment. Not sure that would be a wonderful thing for the feel of a cue stick.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Wood shafts are like baseball bats to me. Eventually it loses its structural integrity. Baseball players constantly changing their bats for this reason. Now their point of contact are different than ours but we make contact with a ball more often than they do on a bat.

The shafts flex and vibrate every time we make contact. I was told a long time ago to let a cue warm up if it’s cold outside. Put the cue together and let it warm up to the room’s temperature. Then again there were a lot of half truths and folklore then.

I presume your baseball experience is different. Players stick with a bat when it feels good in their hands and they’ve been successful with getting hits. All bats are not the same since wood isn’t the same and MLB players baseball bats are made to very exact weight and dimension preferences. Player bats are kept separate in the dugout. Each player picks another bat when the bat they are using fractures. They don’t just grab any bat. They know which bats they have selected to use for the game. It is not just a random pick. Players are fussy and have preferences and know what they like and have favorites.

Bats are sacrificial whereas cue shafts aren’t. When was the last time somebody shattered a wood shaft from playing
pool? Mariano Riviera’s cutter pitch broke more bats in MLB than any other pitcher. Wood shafts are not like BB bats.

My Runde Schon cue shafts are 40 years old and still “perfect”, not a flaw and laser straight. My Palmer cue shafts are
the same and that cue >60 years old. Both have hit a lot of balls and my Scruggs cue made in ‘05 is almost 2 decades
old and is still pristine in every aspect. Wood shafts made by reputable cue makers don’t behave like baseball bats do.

 

[nataddrho]

I like CF shafts because they don’t ding.

If you have a good stroke and don’t shoot with your shoulder, you can readjust to any type of cue in a few hours.

You are all far too sensitive to perceiving products as gimmicks. Nothing makes your game better For you. If anything, the best products will make you work harder so that learning happens.

 

[lakeman77]

Curious here but just how does one measure 'consistency'?? Construction, playability?? CF shafts are WAY more consistent(manufacture wise) from shaft-to-shaft than wood could ever dream of. This would lead to them(same brand/model) playing much the same. Never happening with wood. I've had more than a couple cues that had two really well made wood shafts and i RARELY if ever used both shafts. They were so different in their hit/feel that one was basically a 'case queen'. I'd bet pretty good that if you took,say, ten cf shafts(same maker/diameter/tip) you'd be hard-pressed to tell them apart. Not impossible but almost.

CF isn't a magic material. I used to shoot a lot of traditional archery, built up my own arrows. Wooden arrow shafts warped, could be funky. CF were much better, once I weeded out the bad ones. I'd start with a dozen CF blank shafts and if I ended up with 8 that flew consistently the same, I was lucky. The bad ones measured and tested the same but flew weird. I did a lot of cycling also, carbon fiber bike frames were not the same, even from the same manufacture. Some might have a wobble at high speed, some were like a rock. I think CF pool cues are similar. If they are good, they are great. For what it's worth, I've tried several brands and I've found Mezz to be the most consistent from shaft to shaft. Just one persons opinion, others might have different results.

 

[TrxR]

All wood is susceptible to environmental change, even woods that do ok without a finish such as wenge, teak and rosewood. But your average wood shaft is lacquered and sealed to mitigate changes in humidity, heat and cold.

As wood ages it loses its moisture content. Eventually becoming less susceptible to environmental change. In the guitar industry we have been messing about with roasting woods, particularly maple, to mimic this process and remove most moisture content. It results in an extremely stable guitar neck that is very robust and isn’t particularly impacted by seasonal change and weather swings.

I’m doubtful whether this will pick up for cue shafts, given the pool community’s appetite for carbon fiber, and maple gets a little brittle after this cooking treatment. Not sure that would be a wonderful thing for the feel of a cue stick.

Some people love their Keilwood shafts which are roasted maple mostly.

 

[misterpoole]

I would think the tip would be affected, and even chalk, more than a nice old stable wood shaft. We do know that the table is affected by humidity ie 'wet' table.
Find a few wood shafts you like and stick with them. CF is overrated

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

There are some interesting stories here. I’m glad they made LD shafts. My new routine a lot of times is warmup with a keilwood and then change to a regular shaft when it’s game time. Just makes me appreciate how much better a solid, regular maple shaft plays. I have zero interest in cf. Like literally. If I was pro and predator or any other cue manufacturer said they’d pay me money to play with their CF or LD shaft I’d tell them “no thanks”. Of course I don’t play for the money. And now after hearing that CF has good ones and bad ones, makes me even less likely to consider purchasing one.

Plus the fact you never hear of people buying CF and getting their joints matched. You know-sanded down for max contact and the outside diameters matched. Send in a butt to a manufacturer. Get two shafts made. Have one joint matched and the other not. They screw together and play different most of the time. If your shaft joint is even slightly larger or smaller than the butt or doesn’t have full joint contact the energy is transferred through the cue differently. I was going to actually start a thread on this about a month ago but decided not to. Point being your pin probably isn’t dead straight. The manufacturers must have certain criteria + and - for joint pins that’s why they match the joints for you when you first purchase a cue. Otherwise they wouldn’t have to. CF shafts are made for a dead straight pin. But I’m sure they also have an out of alignment criteria. It’s hard to be on the money every time. Put a piece of plastigauge around your shaft’s joint and screw it together. I’ll bet the results would be surprising for some. Like only 50% joint contact or something crazy like that

And the tip is for sure the first to show when the moisture is up. It was humid a couple weeks ago and my tip kept getting moist. The chalk kept getting wet and packed on there. Almost drove me nutty. Shaft was fine

 

[maha]

people believe in myths all the time for whatever reason pops in their minds. especially if they can place the blame on their problems on something else rather themselves.

pool players are no different.

 

[dquarasr]

Plus the fact you never hear of people buying CF and getting their joints matched. You know-sanded down for max contact and the outside diameters matched. Send in a butt to a manufacturer.

I purchased a CF shaft from a local custom cue maker. He most definitely matched the joint precisely to the butt of my player cue.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

I purchased a CF shaft from a local custom cue maker. He most definitely matched the joint precisely to the butt of my player cue.

Well you did it right. A lot of people are just ordering their shafts and screwing them on. Probably occasionally why some don’t like certain shafts. It might just not be screwing on good. I mean just a little extra glue could throw off the joint sleeve too.

 

[MitchAlsup]

The take away from this conversation was two-fold: first, that wood moved/changed enough in different environments to noticeably effect play and second; not all CF shafts, even from the same manufacturer, played the same so players need to try them out and choose the shaft they like.

Personally, I take no issue with the second point. But I really have to wonder about a wood shaft changing enough from say, a bone dry Las Vegas environment, to a New Orleans cookin' a big pot of crawfish in the back environment.

What says you?

a) it takes months for wood to acclimate to the humidity of its current environment fresh feln wood takes years to dry/acclimate.

b) My wooden shafts have multiple coats of carnuba wax on them which probably slows the point in (a) down even more

c) I notice no real difference when I wipe the crud off my shaft with a damp towel and then buff with a piece of heavy paper.
This presents the wood surface layer with 750× as much water as can be found in 100% humid air.

d) my guess is that the tip changes more rapidly than the shaft !!

 

[dendweller]

CF shafts do NOT increase/decrease spin. Again, what is 'consistency' in a shaft? How do you measure this? Its basically impossible to put numbers on. Its all feel/subjective. LOTS of pros(most these days) use them. I know, they get them free but if they didn't perform or were 'inconsistent' they wouldn't use them. I've yet to hear one good player complain about 'spin surprises' while playing with them. Power? Yes, even a hack like me saw greater power but spin? No. Spin is a product of tip-offset. Dr.Dave and others WAY smarter than me have covered this at length.

Do you think that if you hit the cue ball harder you can make it spin more?

 

[garczar]

Do you think that if you hit the cue ball harder you can make it spin more?

no. Harder hit means more forward speed relative to the offset. Spin is determined by how far you hit from center.

 

[j2pac]

I’m glad that I’m not good or sufficiently consistent enough to know the difference in environments. I feel the same way about the differences among golf balls. I use the balls I find lost in the rough and they all play alike in my game.

With golf balls, there are noticeable differences regardless, depending on compression. You aren't fooling anyone geezer. I know that you are good enough to know the difference between a Pro-V, and a Pinnacle Gold (Rock).