Silver Fox cue case br33?

[mongoose-]

Before we start beating up on the man...the OP did say that he was looking for a nice, lightweight case for his carom cue, and had had an interest in the Silver Fox BR-33, because it looked like it might fit the bill. He was simply asking questions about it. All I saw was that John was offering a viable alternative to the Silver Fox case. I noticed no one mentioned the post previous to John's where an Instroke Premier case was also suggested.

Some people here need to relax a little bit...things have been stressed around here for a while...not sure if it's the current economic situation that has everyone so uptight.

For the record...as I have previously mentioned...I have owned a LOT of different makers' cases...some were good, some okay, some were less than impressive. It is all a matter of taste, and specific need. I currently have a case that I am very happy with, that is lightweight, and gets the job done quite nicely. It suits my needs, it may not suit others.

Some of us seem to forget that it was not all that long ago when a decent cue case was hard to find...or you paid for it. And yes, in the past, some pretty inferior product was coming from overseas...but that is no longer the case.

Lest we not forget...one of THE most successful case lines came out of Instroke. That case line was produced overseas...in Germany. People bought them by the droves, because it was a far superior product to what we had been offered in the past in a production cue case. And, oddly, no one seemed to mind that they were produced off-shore. Are you gonna dog Jack Justis because he has chosen to have some of his cases produced off-shore? Yeah...I didn't think so.

Some of you need to get over yourselves....a great product is a great product, no matter where it is produced.

Lisa ====> really sick of this 'us and them' mentality.

UMMMM thanks for the info. Wasn't beating up on anyone just found it a bit funny that sterling was a better case as he seems to deal them. Maybe others should lighten up a bit instead of going off on a page rant because someone poked a joke. Personally I could care less where something is made if I liked it I would buy it. Get it ? Got it ? Good.

 

[ridewiththewind]

BTW...before I get tagged for my above post being some sort of 'lovefest' over John Barton...and it's happened before...LoL...I would like to qualify that in the past, John and I have had are differences, and have butt heads more than once. With that said...you can love him or hate him...but the man does know his cases, and he definitely knows how to design one at a price point for just about everyone.

I posted above from fact and informed opinion. If I thought that any given product was crap...I would tell you so. I can think of one USA made case that I dropped $150 on for a 1x2 that in less than a month turned into the biggest piece of crap I ever had the displeasure to waste hard earned money on...but since it does not fit into the intent of this thread, I will save it for when it is pertinent.

Lisa

 

[ridewiththewind]

UMMMM thanks for the info. Wasn't beating up on anyone just found it a bit funny that sterling was a better case as he seems to deal them. Maybe others should lighten up a bit instead of going off on a page rant because someone poked a joke. Personally I could care less where something is made if I liked it I would buy it. Get it ? Got it ? Good.

I apologize if there was a misunderstanding, but your post most certainly did not come off as a joke...it rang more like the same ol' $hit. BTW though...I agree, that particular Sterling case is kinda fugly.

Lisa

 

[mongoose-]

I apologize if there was a misunderstanding, but your post most certainly did not come off as a joke...it rang more like the same ol' $hit. BTW though...I agree, that particular Sterling case is kinda fugly.

Lisa

No problem Lisa... I took yours as a bit a smart crack as well but hey we can't hear text so misunderstandings happen. With as many products out there I know myself & others as well are glad to hear opinions on them. Thank you for your clarification of the post. My apologies to you as well if I sounded out of line.

 

[JB Cases]

I just got off the phone with the owner and designer of Silver Fox Cases, since they are just up the road from me in Bellingham, WA. We had a very nice conversation, and I asked him straight out about whether or not their cases are made in the US or not, and he was quite candid in his response..."All of our cases were originally designed and manufactured here in-house. However, in recent years, with the need to keep up with production and to stay competitive in the market, some of the production has gone overseas. I would say that currently, about 50% of our cases are still manufactured in-house, with the other 50% being manufactured overseas."

So there you have it, from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

John....I did find it quite interesting that he told me that back when he began the company, it was because, at that time, there was really only one American company mass-producing cases. He had some very expensive Schon cues, and had them in this other American company's case, which required him to turn the case upside down to retrieve them...well, you guessed it...his cues got accidentally damaged, and that is what spurred him to design "a better case". Hmmmm...this story does sound oddly familiar. :smilewinkgrin:

Anyways...Silver Fox Case Company has been around for many, many years now, quietly making cases up here in the Pacific Northwest. Most that I have seen are made of a high quality vinyl...but I believe I have seen a leather version or two. For anyone interested, here is the link to their website: http://www.silverfoxcase.com/pages/351965/index.htm

Lisa =====> oddly, has owned a case from just about every company out there at one time or another, but never got around to a Silver Fox.

Thanks Lisa. That corresponds with the information I have.

Appreciate the heads up.

 

[JB Cases]

Funny you are a sterling dealier JB lol. I don't think that sterling is any bit better protection than a Silver Fox hard case. And the looks certainly are not better.

Actually I am not a Sterling dealer. I am the maker of the cases and I do product design and quality control.

I am also not responsible for the "look" of this particular case. That credit belongs to Joe Porper. Sterling has had this style of case in it's catalog for years before I came along and all I have done is to upgrade the interior to my standards.

So in fact, it does protect better, and no it doesn't have all the pockets and zippers on the front like the Silver Fox. The Silver Fox does look better if you are the kind of person who likes a lot of pockets.

I don't make cases for beauty contests. I make them protective and let people decide for themselves which ones look better.

I merely offered an alternative to the original poster's choice. Notice I said it's "cheaper" which it is, and "better protecting" which it is, and "lighter", which is is according to the link the original poster provided, 5lbs vs. 3.3lbs. I did NOT say "looks better" which is something that is in the opinion of each person who looks at both.

 

[JB Cases]

JOhn ... Sorry, but the webbing straps going around the OUTSIDE of the Sterling case is a turnoff, and so is the location of the handle. Why don't they put the handle on the side of the case where it belongs???

LOL - I feel ya on this. This particular model is something I am stuck with for another year when I can phase it out. It's essentially a Joe Porper copy that was in the catalog long before I came along. So I upgraded the interior and did a few other things to make it a better case but I wasn't allowed to substantially change the look because of the fact that it's pictured in our catalog this way. I figured that if I can't get away from the Porper look right away then at least I can put JB interiors in them and give people the protection I think should be there.

The handle can be moved to either side. It was originally placed this way by some "clever" guy who thought he could use a smaller box if the handle was in the center and more "clever" people in the USA didn't think to move the handle to the side for photography purposes so it would look more natural (including me obviously as I 'could' have moved the handle on the new photos!).

 

[JB Cases]

Y'all done pissed me off now!

I have several of the "multi-pocket" style cases on the drawing board, half drawn. Some of them with some very neat features. Lisa and I talked about this a while back. In the next couple months I will go ahead and do some prototypes. The crowd has spoken and I listen.

Not in time to help you out though Zivan, sorry.

 

[mongoose-]

Actually I am not a Sterling dealer. I am the maker of the cases and I do product design and quality control.

I am also not responsible for the "look" of this particular case. That credit belongs to Joe Porper. Sterling has had this style of case in it's catalog for years before I came along and all I have done is to upgrade the interior to my standards.

So in fact, it does protect better, and no it doesn't have all the pockets and zippers on the front like the Silver Fox. The Silver Fox does look better if you are the kind of person who likes a lot of pockets.

I don't make cases for beauty contests. I make them protective and let people decide for themselves which ones look better.

I merely offered an alternative to the original poster's choice. Notice I said it's "cheaper" which it is, and "better protecting" which it is, and "lighter", which is is according to the link the original poster provided, 5lbs vs. 3.3lbs. I did NOT say "looks better" which is something that is in the opinion of each person who looks at both.

JB I know when porper started making those styles years ago. Then every case maker in the world stole his patterns. "figure of speech". How do you figure this sterling case is one bit better protection then the Silver Fox. Not trying to create an argument here but I don't see what better protection it is.

 

[JB Cases]

JB I know when porper started making those styles years ago. Then every case maker in the world stole his patterns. "figure of speech". How do you figure this sterling case is one bit better protection then the Silver Fox. Not trying to create an argument here but I don't see what better protection it is.

Starting with the tubing. Our tubes don't crack and break when they are impacted. They flex and absorb the impact. I worked for about four months testing different recipes until we came up with the blend that works. OUr competition's tubes are generally more brittle than ours. The last time I had a Silver Fox case in my hands it had the same tubing that most of the competition uses. So my assumption (you know how that goes) is that the manufacturer of the SF cases has not changed the tubing and it is therefore inferior to ours.

Then moving on to the interior setup. Ours is well padded between the cue parts to insure that they do not have any chance to contact each other or get damaged by shock when the case falls over, is dropped, thrown into the backseat, etc.... The fabric is moisture resistant and soft yet very strong so it won't wear out and won't allow moisture to stick to the cue. Again last time I checked a SF hard case the interior was not close to mine. I welcome correction on this if someone cares to post a picture of their Silver Fox hard case interior.

So based on the last inspection of the SF hard case vs. our hard cases I have the opinon that ours protects better in all areas.

About Joe Porper, every case maker in the world didn't steal his patterns. Other than original design he put out in the mid 80s Joe actually has "borrowed" pretty much all the rest of his designs from other casemakers over the years, to include me (Instroke-Cowboy design), New Image (split diagonal color design, and American Vinyl Products & Instroke again (butterfly style cases.)

If it were up to me then I would scrap all of the Joe Porper looking cases we make right now - UNLESS they were from Joe Porper. (I am speaking of the original Porper design here and not the ones he took from others).

Other folks have liberally copied Silver Fox as well. Cue and Case has a couple versions of the soft cases. J&J has versions of the hard cases.

My personal goal is to have all of Sterling's cases be original designs within the next two years. Of course they will have elements of other people's designs in them, that's pretty much unavoidable just as my designs and methods have inspired others to adopt them.

Lastly, to get back to your question of whether the Silver Fox case is less protective than the Sterling case. It's a valid question that I wish more people would ask and which more folks had the opportunity to compare the cases that they are contemplating.

The fact is that most consumers just assume that the case is well made and protective but really they can't see into the case enough to know that it is. So they base their conclusion on the exterior and whether it appeals to them or not and if so then the case must be good. Well that goes back to the saying don't judge a book by it's cover. Which most people don't heed as publishers well know who spend millions designing appealing covers. Just as most case makers focus on the look rather than the protection. I am the opposite. I build from the center out and wrap the cues in layers of protection.

Now this is of course just my own statement and I am the builder so it amounts to a sales pitch as well.

But I have been here on AZ for a good amount of time and been on the newsgroups since 1996/7ish with the same story, same pitch, same soapbox. Plenty of time for folks to disprove my statements. But I think you will find that although I am not the friendliest person on the newsgroups what I say about my cases has been the experience that most have had with them. I am quite proud of the fact that there are many many many Instroke cases out there that are ten years old where the interior is still as good and protective as the first day the customer brought it home.

That's my story.

John

P.S. The Silver Fox IS a good case. I think that the fact that I said this earlier in the thread is now overshadowed. It's a perfectly adequate case in my opinion. I believe that the interior is practically identical to the ones that Jack Justis imports for his cases and we all know that a lot of HIGH END cues are sitting in Justis cases right now.

If you do want to kow more about what I think of cue cases you can read about it here; www.jbcases.com

 

[JB Cases]

John....I did find it quite interesting that he told me that back when he began the company, it was because, at that time, there was really only one American company mass-producing cases. He had some very expensive Schon cues, and had them in this other American company's case, which required him to turn the case upside down to retrieve them...well, you guessed it...his cues got accidentally damaged, and that is what spurred him to design "a better case". Hmmmm...this story does sound oddly familiar. :smilewinkgrin:

LOL, we both took the same story from "The Casemaker's Handbook" in the chapter on "Have a good origin story".......jk

Coincidentally the cue of mine which was damaged as it fell out of my old Flowers (J.EF) case was my first Schon cue.

 

[mongoose-]

Starting with the tubing. Our tubes don't crack and break when they are impacted. They flex and absorb the impact. I worked for about four months testing different recipes until we came up with the blend that works. OUr competition's tubes are generally more brittle than ours. The last time I had a Silver Fox case in my hands it had the same tubing that most of the competition uses. So my assumption (you know how that goes) is that the manufacturer of the SF cases has not changed the tubing and it is therefore inferior to ours.

Then moving on to the interior setup. Ours is well padded between the cue parts to insure that they do not have any chance to contact each other or get damaged by shock when the case falls over, is dropped, thrown into the backseat, etc.... The fabric is moisture resistant and soft yet very strong so it won't wear out and won't allow moisture to stick to the cue. Again last time I checked a SF hard case the interior was not close to mine. I welcome correction on this if someone cares to post a picture of their Silver Fox hard case interior.

So based on the last inspection of the SF hard case vs. our hard cases I have the opinon that ours protects better in all areas.

About Joe Porper, every case maker in the world didn't steal his patterns. Other than original design he put out in the mid 80s Joe actually has "borrowed" pretty much all the rest of his designs from other casemakers over the years, to include me (Instroke-Cowboy design), New Image (split diagonal color design, and American Vinyl Products & Instroke again (butterfly style cases.)

If it were up to me then I would scrap all of the Joe Porper looking cases we make right now - UNLESS they were from Joe Porper. (I am speaking of the original Porper design here and not the ones he took from others).

Other folks have liberally copied Silver Fox as well. Cue and Case has a couple versions of the soft cases. J&J has versions of the hard cases.

My personal goal is to have all of Sterling's cases be original designs within the next two years. Of course they will have elements of other people's designs in them, that's pretty much unavoidable just as my designs and methods have inspired others to adopt them.

Lastly, to get back to your question of whether the Silver Fox case is less protective than the Sterling case. It's a valid question that I wish more people would ask and which more folks had the opportunity to compare the cases that they are contemplating.

The fact is that most consumers just assume that the case is well made and protective but really they can't see into the case enough to know that it is. So they base their conclusion on the exterior and whether it appeals to them or not and if so then the case must be good. Well that goes back to the saying don't judge a book by it's cover. Which most people don't heed as publishers well know who spend millions designing appealing covers. Just as most case makers focus on the look rather than the protection. I am the opposite. I build from the center out and wrap the cues in layers of protection.

Now this is of course just my own statement and I am the builder so it amounts to a sales pitch as well.

But I have been here on AZ for a good amount of time and been on the newsgroups since 1996/7ish with the same story, same pitch, same soapbox. Plenty of time for folks to disprove my statements. But I think you will find that although I am not the friendliest person on the newsgroups what I say about my cases has been the experience that most have had with them. I am quite proud of the fact that there are many many many Instroke cases out there that are ten years old where the interior is still as good and protective as the first day the customer brought it home.

That's my story.

John

P.S. The Silver Fox IS a good case. I think that the fact that I said this earlier in the thread is now overshadowed. It's a perfectly adequate case in my opinion. I believe that the interior is practically identical to the ones that Jack Justis imports for his cases and we all know that a lot of HIGH END cues are sitting in Justis cases right now.

If you do want to kow more about what I think of cue cases you can read about it here; www.jbcases.com

JB thanks for the detailed response. Am always glad to hear opinions from people as yourself in the industry. As I had stated earlier I was just poking a joke not looking to stir anything up. I still can't say as I agree with some of your opinions such as impact. In all reality people who carry nice cues in cases are not gonna have the impact of a car running over them per say. And I agree about the ORIGINAL porpers modelbeing duplicated. I know he has also used others models recently. Now I could br wrong here but didn't Porper start that original models in thr 80's then a lot of other kind of duplicated it ?

 

[HollyWood]

Hey John- what about kamui Cases

Hey Mr. John Barton- what have you heard about the Japanese KAMUI cases? I remember they were very expensive,but were they worth it? thanks in Advance for comments. mark

 

[JB Cases]

JB thanks for the detailed response. Am always glad to hear opinions from people as yourself in the industry. As I had stated earlier I was just poking a joke not looking to stir anything up. I still can't say as I agree with some of your opinions such as impact. In all reality people who carry nice cues in cases are not gonna have the impact of a car running over them per say. And I agree about the ORIGINAL porpers modelbeing duplicated. I know he has also used others models recently. Now I could br wrong here but didn't Porper start that original models in thr 80's then a lot of other kind of duplicated it ?

Well that's pretty much the standard line that people who don't think that the sort of protection I put in our cases use. Namely that people who have "high end" cues will be more careful so protection doesn't matter as long as it's ok.

However in my life I have seen and collected plenty of stories to the contrary.

One recent one goes like this: A man owns a $2000 case (VERY FAMOUS BRAND) and the snap on this case is broken - won't stay snapped. The man has a $5000 cue in this case. The man is walking out of the pool room in the Northwest in the winter and he slips on the ice and his case goes flying and the lid opens and his cues go flying out of the case. He and his friend (who told me this story) are now hunting in the snow for his cues in the parking lot. All because the case itself is so loose that the cues could come flying out of it in an accident such as this.

Another story involves North Carolina pool room owner and old time road player Frank Tullos. I was giving Frank the pitch about the protectiveness of the Instroke cases around 1996 at the Smokin' Cue in Charlotte during a Viking Tour event. Frank stops me and says "I don't care about that, the cases are new and will sell in my poolroom" and he buys ten. An hour or so later Frank walks up to me and shows me his one of a kind Pechauer with some nasty dings and gouges in it. What had happened is that he had forgotten to close the latch on his George and as he walked outside he slung it over the opposite shoulder which put the lid in the down position - the cues hit the lid and shot out onto the wet asphalt. He was sick. He said something like he couldn't believe that this happened right after I pitched the virtues of having a case that held the cues snugly.

And another one involves a good player from the Northeast who was on the way to a tournament and she left her Instroke case on the roof of the car. It fell off the back and she ran over it backing out of the driveway. She said she thought she ran over the cat. Result, case scuffed a little - cues unhurt.

So I agree, a case that simply holds a cue and doesn't harm it is adequate for most situations. I don't build cases that are just adequate. Maybe it's overkill but the stories I have collected about how people's cues were saved because of the way I build the cases tell me that it's worth it to be this way about protection.

In just about every other activity if the instrument is really valuable then it's kept in a very good and protective padded case where the interior is likely to be form fitted. Only in pool will players stick their cues in any hole that happens to be there regardless of whether that case is well made or not. They just blindly trust that it's done right and will do the job.

Ok, enough about that, your other question is......

'Didn't Porper start in the 80's and everyone copied him?" (paraphrased)

Porper started around 1985. I bought my first Porper case in 1988 in Florida. I thought it was the NUTS. Everyone at the pool room teased me for carrying a "golf bag". At that time Porper had one design, one model and various sizes.

In the early 90's copies of Porper's initial model began showing up. The first copies were made of wood - essentially a wooden box with cardboard tubes that resembled the Porper model from the outside. These were heavy and fell apart rather quickly. A few years later the foam core versions of the knockoffs came out and they were practically identical to the Porper cases. Domestic casemakers weren't copying Porper. It was mainly driven by importers who were asking the Asian case makers to copy Porper.

So Porper was forced to come with some new designs and he looked to the competition at the time, Instroke, AVP, and New Image (Ron Hoffman) and the new models that came out reflected that influence.

I have also heard and this has NOT BEEN CONFIRMED by me talking to Bob Meucci, that Meucci actually invented the Expanding Foam Core case and showed it to Joe Porper and Joe then went and made them.

Joe has been a positive contributor to the billiard industry. Whether he comes up with new things on his own or "borrows" the ideas of others he ran with whatever he could and the end result is a lot of good and useful products.

I used to be mad and flattered at the same time when he took my Instroke Cowboy design but I am over it now. We all use a little from each other and while that was probably a little much I have to say that if it weren't for Porper then I wouldn't be on the cue protection kick because when I bought my Flowers I assumed that it would be as protective as my Porper. It wasn't - my cue fell out and was damaged and I set off to build a better case and the rest as they say, is history.

Most don't know this but originally Porper's cases were called Porper's "Protect-A-Cue" Cases.

All this over a question about a Silver Fox case? I haven't written one of these "history" pieces in a while. Hope it helps you get to sleep. ;-)

 

[JB Cases]

Hey Mr. John Barton- what have you heard about the Japanese KAMUI cases? I remember they were very expensive,but were they worth it? thanks in Advance for comments. mark

I saw them on the Japanese website for Kamui and saw one in person at the China Open. I thought the leather work was well done. I didn't open the case and inspect it to see how well the interior was done. I don't recall what they are going for. I'd guess that the interior is probably adequate for the job at least. They do deal in a lot of high end cues and cases in Japan so I'd assume that the case maker and people he is working with would have some sense of building a decent interior.

I really can't comment more than that as my experience with them is very limited.

 

[mongoose-]

Well that's pretty much the standard line that people who don't think that the sort of protection I put in our cases use. Namely that people who have "high end" cues will be more careful so protection doesn't matter as long as it's ok.

However in my life I have seen and collected plenty of stories to the contrary.

One recent one goes like this: A man owns a $2000 case (VERY FAMOUS BRAND) and the snap on this case is broken - won't stay snapped. The man has a $5000 cue in this case. The man is walking out of the pool room in the Northwest in the winter and he slips on the ice and his case goes flying and the lid opens and his cues go flying out of the case. He and his friend (who told me this story) are now hunting in the snow for his cues in the parking lot. All because the case itself is so loose that the cues could come flying out of it in an accident such as this.

Another story involves North Carolina pool room owner and old time road player Frank Tullos. I was giving Frank the pitch about the protectiveness of the Instroke cases around 1996 at the Smokin' Cue in Charlotte during a Viking Tour event. Frank stops me and says "I don't care about that, the cases are new and will sell in my poolroom" and he buys ten. An hour or so later Frank walks up to me and shows me his one of a kind Pechauer with some nasty dings and gouges in it. What had happened is that he had forgotten to close the latch on his George and as he walked outside he slung it over the opposite shoulder which put the lid in the down position - the cues hit the lid and shot out onto the wet asphalt. He was sick. He said something like he couldn't believe that this happened right after I pitched the virtues of having a case that held the cues snugly.

And another one involves a good player from the Northeast who was on the way to a tournament and she left her Instroke case on the roof of the car. It fell off the back and she ran over it backing out of the driveway. She said she thought she ran over the cat. Result, case scuffed a little - cues unhurt.

So I agree, a case that simply holds a cue and doesn't harm it is adequate for most situations. I don't build cases that are just adequate. Maybe it's overkill but the stories I have collected about how people's cues were saved because of the way I build the cases tell me that it's worth it to be this way about protection.

In just about every other activity if the instrument is really valuable then it's kept in a very good and protective padded case where the interior is likely to be form fitted. Only in pool will players stick their cues in any hole that happens to be there regardless of whether that case is well made or not. They just blindly trust that it's done right and will do the job.

Ok, enough about that, your other question is......

'Didn't Porper start in the 80's and everyone copied him?" (paraphrased)

Porper started around 1985. I bought my first Porper case in 1988 in Florida. I thought it was the NUTS. Everyone at the pool room teased me for carrying a "golf bag". At that time Porper had one design, one model and various sizes.

In the early 90's copies of Porper's initial model began showing up. The first copies were made of wood - essentially a wooden box with cardboard tubes that resembled the Porper model from the outside. These were heavy and fell apart rather quickly. A few years later the foam core versions of the knockoffs came out and they were practically identical to the Porper cases. Domestic casemakers weren't copying Porper. It was mainly driven by importers who were asking the Asian case makers to copy Porper.

So Porper was forced to come with some new designs and he looked to the competition at the time, Instroke, AVP, and New Image (Ron Hoffman) and the new models that came out reflected that influence.

I have also heard and this has NOT BEEN CONFIRMED by me talking to Bob Meucci, that Meucci actually invented the Expanding Foam Core case and showed it to Joe Porper and Joe then went and made them.

Joe has been a positive contributor to the billiard industry. Whether he comes up with new things on his own or "borrows" the ideas of others he ran with whatever he could and the end result is a lot of good and useful products.

I used to be mad and flattered at the same time when he took my Instroke Cowboy design but I am over it now. We all use a little from each other and while that was probably a little much I have to say that if it weren't for Porper then I wouldn't be on the cue protection kick because when I bought my Flowers I assumed that it would be as protective as my Porper. It wasn't - my cue fell out and was damaged and I set off to build a better case and the rest as they say, is history.

Most don't know this but originally Porper's cases were called Porper's "Protect-A-Cue" Cases.

All this over a question about a Silver Fox case? I haven't written one of these "history" pieces in a while. Hope it helps you get to sleep. ;-)

LOL I remember the old golf bag line. Those were the days when people generally carried a box or tube case. I also had one of his originals called the protect a cue case. We are telling our old age now. Interesting history story. I have noticed in your posts you are quite thorough when testing stuff. That is a good thing. Nice posting on the cases subject JB. Good luck to you there in the future.