What's the call?

pooltchr

pooltchr

Prof. Billiard Instructor
Silver Member
This actually happened last night. In 47 years of playing this game, I had never seen it before.
Shooter A has solids. He leavs the 5 ball hanging in the corner pocket, right on the ledge, deep in the pocket. He goes back to his seat, and Shooter B approaches the table. He looks at his options and then lines up to shoot his ball straight into the pocket where the 5 sits, hoping to follow the 5 in. Total time lapsed was probably 30 to 45 seconds.
As B shoots, and his ball is rolling toward the pocket, the 5 drops in. Shooter B's ball goes in to the pocket.

I'll check back with the LO's call in a bit, but would like to hear some opinions on this one.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
This actually happened last night. In 47 years of playing this game, I had never seen it before.
Shooter A has solids. He leavs the 5 ball hanging in the corner pocket, right on the ledge, deep in the pocket. He goes back to his seat, and Shooter B approaches the table. He looks at his options and then lines up to shoot his ball straight into the pocket where the 5 sits, hoping to follow the 5 in. Total time lapsed was probably 30 to 45 seconds.
As B shoots, and his ball is rolling toward the pocket, the 5 drops in. Shooter B's ball goes in to the pocket.

I'll check back with the LO's call in a bit, but would like to hear some opinions on this one.

Steve
Click to expand...


All balls are restored as close as possible. Shot is replayed.

WPA rules:

1.7 Balls Settling
A ball may settle slightly after it appears to have stopped, possibly due to slight imperfections in the ball or the table. Unless this causes a ball to fall into a pocket, it is considered a normal hazard of play, and the ball will not be moved back. If a ball falls into a pocket as the result of such settling, it is restored as closely as possible to its original position. If a settling ball falls into a pocket during or just prior to a shot, and this has an effect on the shot, the referee will restore the position and the shot will be replayed. The shooter is not penalized for shooting while a ball is settling. See also 8.3 Ball Pocketed.
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I have seen something similar to this, but not exactly.

This was during a scotch doubles match at the BCA nationals, some years back. Some friends of mine were playing. one of their balls was sitting on the lip of the side pocket. The other team had shot, and missed or played safe. I don't recall. My friends shot in two of their shots, and when the second one fell, the ball sitting in the side pocket (Which they wanted to shoot next) fell into the pocket. Nothing had touched it. Nothing came close. It was just really weird that it had stayed there for half the match and THEN fell.

The ref came and spotted it back up, and my friends finished off the rack. It was just odd... much like the OP's story.
 
while gambling

It happened to me once, during a 9-ball gambling match.....My opponent jawed the 9-ball, leaving it hanging in the corner pocket.....and as I bent over to shoot, it fell in......about the same time span as your example...I gave him the game.....I should have shot it faster, I guess.....
 
I had a weird one about a month ago. While playing 9 ball I had the 7 ball hung in the top right corner, froze to the long rail. I had to get back down to the 8 on the bottom rail so I put some left, running english on the shot to hit the rail first and make the ball and come around and down for the 8. Pretty normal pattern IMO. I shot the ball perfect but when the cueball hit the rail the 7 ball fell in before the cue ball could make contact. The cueball then hit the other point and stayed on that side of the table. The pattern was messed up because of not hitting the ball.

My opponent called foul on me because I didn't hit anything. I exclaimed that the ball should be replaced and replayed but the TD ruled in favor of my opponent. I lost the set hill-hill. :mad:
 
stuckart said:
I had a weird one about a month ago. While playing 9 ball I had the 7 ball hung in the top right corner, froze to the long rail. I had to get back down to the 8 on the bottom rail so I put some left, running english on the shot to hit the rail first and make the ball and come around and down for the 8. Pretty normal pattern IMO. I shot the ball perfect but when the cueball hit the rail the 7 ball fell in before the cue ball could make contact. The cueball then hit the other point and stayed on that side of the table. The pattern was messed up because of not hitting the ball.

My opponent called foul on me because I didn't hit anything. I exclaimed that the ball should be replaced and replayed but the TD ruled in favor of my opponent. I lost the set hill-hill. :mad:
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It's a shame when the TD doesn't know the rules either but it's nothing new... unfortunately. Bad luck. It's also too bad when the TD thinks he/she knows the rules but is mistaken.
 
mjantti said:
It's a shame when the TD doesn't know the rules either but it's nothing new... unfortunately. Bad luck. It's also too bad when the TD thinks he/she knows the rules but is mistaken.
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I'm seriously considering making a little web application that allows you to look up or send a text message with key words to a number and it will respond with the official rules. I think this could work for many sports. I'd love to be able to send "Ball falls in pocket untouched" and get the full rule back in 2 seconds to show the TD/Opponent.
 
LO's ruling:

Since the 5 ball remained on the table longer than 5 seconds before dropping, it would normall placed back in it's original location. Since the next shot was already in progress, it is assumed that the shot would have resulted in the ball being pocketed. And since the shooter's ball also went into the pocket on the shot, both balls stay down, and Shooter B continues to shoot.

I suspect I could live to be 100 and never see that same situation come up again!

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
LO's ruling:

Since the 5 ball remained on the table longer than 5 seconds before dropping, it would normall placed back in it's original location. Since the next shot was already in progress, it is assumed that the shot would have resulted in the ball being pocketed. And since the shooter's ball also went into the pocket on the shot, both balls stay down, and Shooter B continues to shoot.

I suspect I could live to be 100 and never see that same situation come up again!

Steve
Click to expand...

The fundamental problem with this rule is that it works under the assumption that things can easily be restored. What if they can't? What if you're playing straight pool, you fired the ball at warp 3 and blasted 13 balls around the table and yet, the ball you were trying to pocket dropped before the cueball even got there? You can't replay the shot and you certainly can't replay the game.

The fact is, in the 30 years I've been around this game, this scenario has never happened to me. I've been witness to it a couple times and that's just about it. A better way to handle this is to allow everything to count as is. That is to say, it should count as a pocketed ball but should not count as a legal hit. To explain my suggestion, I'll cite a few examples -

Nine-ball, player is shooting at the 2ball with a 9ball hanging near the pocket. He makes legal contact on the 2ball and the 9ball spontaneously drops. He should win the game.

Nine-ball, player is shooting at a hanging 2ball and it drops before the cueball reaches the 2. He then proceeds to make legal contact with the 3ball. Since the 2ball was on the table prior to the shot, the requirements for a legal hit in 9ball were not met and this should be ruled a foul.


I know this suggested rule is not nice. I know someone is inevitably going to have a horrible story to tell their grandchildren as a result BUT it's much much simpler to follow than what's currently in place. Also, I'm working under the assumption that this really won't happen very often in one's life. The general rules of pocket billiards needs to be applicable to all scenarios and this rule simply doesn't work for any scenario involving more than one or two object balls. Besides, is this any different than missing a shot because the object ball shifted while you were shooting? You can't restore position then. Right now, you can only restore if the object ball drops in a pocket spontaneously but any other movement is considered fair play. I think we should just go the extra step and say ALL spontaneous movement is fair play.
 
this happened to me a few months ago, in tap rules, ball left over 5 seconds gets replaced to orig location. the next shot was not in progress for me, so I cant answer that but, in that case if the shot was in progress I would do the same as the league operator answer. just another .02?!?!?!?!?
 
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