The BCA and White Diamond tips
- Thread starter ratcues
- Start date
Ryan.
The answer is no, no, no.
The white diamonds/g10 tips were the reason why they forbiden the use of phenolic on break cues. You can use them however on jump cues.
The answer is no, no, no.
The white diamonds/g10 tips were the reason why they forbiden the use of phenolic on break cues. You can use them however on jump cues.
Official BCAPL response
I spoke with the BCAPL office today, and can definitively pass on the following information.
The office is working as quickly as possible to publish a list of specific tips that will be illegal for use on the break in BCAPL play. So far, the list includes:
White Diamond
X-Breaker
Ice Breaker
Black Future
Any tip with Bakelite, G10, fiberglass, phenolic, or any other non-leather material exposed on any part of the contacting surface.
Other specific tips will likely be added in the near future. If you have a question on the legality of a specific tip, please contact Bill Stock at bills@playCSIpool.com. Please do not use this thread to ask about a specific tip not listed here - I have given you all of the definitive information currently available regarding the BCAPL decisions on specific tips. Again, other tips are being looked at and decisions will be made as soon as possible.
As a reminder, the specific wording of the current rule in force concerning cue tips for breaking in BCAPL play is in BCAPL Equipment Specifications, Cue Sticks, paragraph (d), second sentence as modified:
"The cue tip on break cues must be made of leather with no non-leather materials added to the contacting surface."
On a side note, I respectfully request that readers of this thread not turn this thread into a discussion of the merits of the BCAPL's decision. I am only answering this thread to assist the BCAPL office in disseminating factual and accurate information about BCAPL rules and their effect on specific equipment, and to assist readers in decisions on how to proceed with their equipment. Opinions on the merits of the decision by the BCAPL to regulate breaking tips have been offered ad nauseum on other threads, so if you wish to add to that discussion please ressurect one of those threads, start a new one, or offer your opinion directly to the BCAPL office at info@playCSIpool.com or via the BCAPL website at www.playbca.com. :smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
I spoke with the BCAPL office today, and can definitively pass on the following information.
The office is working as quickly as possible to publish a list of specific tips that will be illegal for use on the break in BCAPL play. So far, the list includes:
White Diamond
X-Breaker
Ice Breaker
Black Future
Any tip with Bakelite, G10, fiberglass, phenolic, or any other non-leather material exposed on any part of the contacting surface.
Other specific tips will likely be added in the near future. If you have a question on the legality of a specific tip, please contact Bill Stock at bills@playCSIpool.com. Please do not use this thread to ask about a specific tip not listed here - I have given you all of the definitive information currently available regarding the BCAPL decisions on specific tips. Again, other tips are being looked at and decisions will be made as soon as possible.
As a reminder, the specific wording of the current rule in force concerning cue tips for breaking in BCAPL play is in BCAPL Equipment Specifications, Cue Sticks, paragraph (d), second sentence as modified:
"The cue tip on break cues must be made of leather with no non-leather materials added to the contacting surface."
On a side note, I respectfully request that readers of this thread not turn this thread into a discussion of the merits of the BCAPL's decision. I am only answering this thread to assist the BCAPL office in disseminating factual and accurate information about BCAPL rules and their effect on specific equipment, and to assist readers in decisions on how to proceed with their equipment. Opinions on the merits of the decision by the BCAPL to regulate breaking tips have been offered ad nauseum on other threads, so if you wish to add to that discussion please ressurect one of those threads, start a new one, or offer your opinion directly to the BCAPL office at info@playCSIpool.com or via the BCAPL website at www.playbca.com. :smile:
Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:
http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx
* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
With respect to your request . . .
It's rather disappointing to see technology finally start coming forward in pool . . . then the BCA decides to make a B-52 carpet bombing run on the rules . . . just because some people don't want to replace cue balls every so often. There's probably millions of dollars of "illegal" cues (as designed) being used out there now.
Most of pool halls still won't replace the ball sets often enough . . . even if they were NEVER touched by a "non-leather" cue on breaks. Why don't they outlaw mud balls while their at it?
It's rather disappointing to see technology finally start coming forward in pool . . . then the BCA decides to make a B-52 carpet bombing run on the rules . . . just because some people don't want to replace cue balls every so often. There's probably millions of dollars of "illegal" cues (as designed) being used out there now.
Most of pool halls still won't replace the ball sets often enough . . . even if they were NEVER touched by a "non-leather" cue on breaks. Why don't they outlaw mud balls while their at it?
"Contacting"?
"Any tip with Bakelite, G10, fiberglass, phenolic, or any other non-leather material exposed on any part of the contacting surface."
Questions:
1. Is chalk a "non-leather material"?
2) If you use a layered leather tip, if it is shaped into a radius, there must be some of the glue "exposed" on that radius; my guess is that the glue is "non-leather"?
Man, I'm glad I don't have to write rulebooks or LAWS!
Charlie
"Any tip with Bakelite, G10, fiberglass, phenolic, or any other non-leather material exposed on any part of the contacting surface."
Questions:
1. Is chalk a "non-leather material"?
2) If you use a layered leather tip, if it is shaped into a radius, there must be some of the glue "exposed" on that radius; my guess is that the glue is "non-leather"?
Man, I'm glad I don't have to write rulebooks or LAWS!
Charlie
I thought the same thing buddy.
I just see people ignoring the ruling or putting the thinnest piece of leather imaginable on a tip. Or worse making a "leather camoflauge"
Amen!! Anyone who thinks I do this for fun is seriously mistaken! :grin: And people actually wonder where some of the BCAPL's "Applied Rulings" come from and why there is a need for them...
Anyway, it is a theoretically valid observation. The answer is that layered tips are fine, as long as all exposed layers of the radius are leather. The glue between the layers will not be considered a factor in the decision.
I say "all exposed layers of the radius", because we already have people proposing placing leather veneers on non-leather tips (OK to my current knowledge - I will confirm it tomorrow), and at least one question about drilling out a non-leather tip to "plug" it with a leather core that then forms only a center portion of the radius
eek: - not OK). ****SIGH****Buddy
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DO NOT let this quote mislead you, Buddy will be the FIRST one to tell you he does this for fun.
Dammit! Busted.
I thought the tip restriction was temporary.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=320220
However, the current rules PDF on CSI's site states:
"The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material."
Maybe someone from BCA or CSI can chime in on this one.
"Pliable" is a very ambiguous term in this context, i.e. meaningless unless it can be quantified. The White Diamond seems more pliable than a phenolic tip, but less so than most leather tips.
Legal until CSI says otherwise...
As of the last time I checked, they are legal in CSI/BCAPL/USAPL play.
The only shot it was ever an issue on was the break. The restriction was never placed on jump shots or any shot other than the break.
Note I say shots - not cues. Whatever you wanted to call a cue or what a cue was designed for was never part of the restriction - it only had to do with the break shot. Ergo you could not, at the time the restriction was in place, say a cue was not designed as a break cue but still put an illegal tip on it to use for breaking. Likewise, on any shot after the break you could have used a phenolic tipped break cue and whaled away on a shot without penalty, the possibility of UC aside (if it were determined you were doing it just to make a point.)
Anyway, it was all out the window as of 6-1-2012. Unless the CSI rule changes again, any tip currently on the market is good to go. If someone cooks up a new material, CSI would look at it separately.
As for WSR, it's anyone's guess. Whatever the ref/TD/administration wants to call "pliable", and whether the White Diamond or any other tip fits their fancy is a crap shoot. And under WSR, the word "pliable" is not the only issue. The WSR equipment specs also say: "The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball." (emphaisis added)
Uh - riiiiight. Good luck with that argument.
Buddy
As of the last time I checked, they are legal in CSI/BCAPL/USAPL play.
The only shot it was ever an issue on was the break. The restriction was never placed on jump shots or any shot other than the break.
Note I say shots - not cues. Whatever you wanted to call a cue or what a cue was designed for was never part of the restriction - it only had to do with the break shot. Ergo you could not, at the time the restriction was in place, say a cue was not designed as a break cue but still put an illegal tip on it to use for breaking. Likewise, on any shot after the break you could have used a phenolic tipped break cue and whaled away on a shot without penalty, the possibility of UC aside (if it were determined you were doing it just to make a point.)
Anyway, it was all out the window as of 6-1-2012. Unless the CSI rule changes again, any tip currently on the market is good to go. If someone cooks up a new material, CSI would look at it separately.
As for WSR, it's anyone's guess. Whatever the ref/TD/administration wants to call "pliable", and whether the White Diamond or any other tip fits their fancy is a crap shoot. And under WSR, the word "pliable" is not the only issue. The WSR equipment specs also say: "The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball." (emphaisis added)
Uh - riiiiight. Good luck with that argument.
Buddy
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Exactly correct.