Guess you don't read. My wife had retinal surgery yesterday, and will most likely lose the vision in her right eye.
So, yeah, tough morning...
Jumpers
- Thread starter busby busybody
- Start date
Guess you don't read. My wife had retinal surgery yesterday, and will most likely lose the vision in her right eye.
So, yeah, tough morning...
My condolences. Maybe a break from AZ would be better to deal with it. I hope you both come through it on the good side.
busby busybody
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Where's the beef? You claim to have proof that jumping does't harm the cloth."Thousands of shots over almost ten years". Who shot them? You? Your pals? Where is the scientific evidence from an independent lab that supports your position? You can do all the "research" you want on your own in an effort to support your claims, but without unbiased facts prepared by a separate qualified entity your claims become anecdotal and useless in the realm of actual science. Your degree in mechanical engineering is from what school? Yes, I imply that you are biased since you admit to making money from the sale of these products no matter how small the slice of the pie that you said it is. That in itself does "obligate" you to stick to your guns no matter what the other guy says. It doesn't however "prove" anything with regard to your claims. Maybe you should take that $10,000 dollars you offer on a cheesy bet and use it to provide some truly factual evidence to support your so called "proof"
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How about the empirical evidence then. The modern jump cue with a phenolic tip has been in constant use since around 1997.
In 1998 I introduced the Bunjee Jumper jump cue to the USA and we sold 300 of them at the BCA/VNEA championships in May of that year. In the following year we sold around 4000 of them to dealers and room owners all around the USA and they were being copied by many other wholesalers and presumably sold in larger numbers to their vastly larger client base.
In the following ten years we can only assume that the year on year sales increased exponentially as the popularity grew. Now with some saturation and a plethora of choices sales have leveled off.
Using that as as a base it's probably a decent conservative guess to say that there are two hundred thousand jump cues out there in play.
In the these past ten years we have seen no epidemic of table cloth damage due to jump cues, we have seen no evidence that they harm the cue ball. What we have seen is that they are used with great popularity and are sold in pool rooms around the world. Room owners don't seem to be overly concerned about this, probably because they already know that no real danger exists.
So in conclusion I have no degree, I have no unbiased scientific tests. I have over ten year's worth of experience doing exhibitions and lessons which encompasses hundreds of thousands of shots on hundreds of tables using a dozen brands of balls on every brand of cloth.
What do you have other than your opinion and theory?
busby busybody
Registered
I have you, JB admitting that your "proof" is invalid. Thank you. As for empirical evidence, that is only a sideways step from the anecdotal. Similar to the tobacco companies claims that since not everyone dies right away from using their product that no harm is being done. As an illustration of my point I have a couple of experiment's for you. 1. Go to your local poolroom and simply start to drop the cue ball onto the table from a height sufficient to cause it to bounce up a distance equal to that of it's own diameter. (you may need a ladder for this one) and see how long it takes for the owner to come over and tell you to knock it off. Reason? You're damaging my equipment. 2. Place an oject ball on the table, and without using a cue, start to throw the cueball down at a steep angle, hard enough to cause it to jump over the O/B. My point is the same, the owner will tell you to stop that because he or she feels that it is damaging the equipment. Just because room owners don't put a stop to jumping with a cue, doesn't mean that no damage occurs. Perhaps they are unaware. Or maybe they just don't care.
I didn't admit that my proof is invalid. I offered more proof on top of my anecdotal proof based on my experience. So here we have my own extensive experience which is mirrored by that of my colleagues in the same field coupled with statistics that belie your claims.
My experience coupled with the same experience of all the sellers of jump cues that I know is that the act of jumping does not damage the table cloth.
I can't help you if you THINK that it does. I am sure that from a theoretical standpoint you are sure that you are right. You are not.
I didn't say that practicing jumping is encouraged or desired at public pool rooms. Nor are masse shots. The practice of both of these disciplines is hard on the cloth but it does not break the cloth nor damage it at all.
Jumping balls using a jump cue is actually EASIER on the table than using a full cue. And in normal play it is not harmful to the cloth at all. Jumping a ball compresses the cloth less than breaking and less than the impact of the cue ball when it strikes the head ball in a rack.
Or, perhaps the people who spend $400 a table several times a year to recover it are very aware what happens on their tables and they know that claims like yours are just hot air.
I have sold jump cues in quantity to PROFESSIONAL PLAYERS who own pool rooms. These would be the people who are most aware of how a cue affects the cloth and they sold my Bunjee Jumpers in their pool rooms.
I would bet that in most pool rooms which have a pro-shop that they sell some form of phenolic tipped jump cue or jump break cue.
So the onus to prove your point is now on you.
I have proven mine in the real world, on the table more times and in mire ways than you know.
From the Stealth Cues website:
"In addition to advancing your jumping skills, the AT-1’s genuine buffalo-leather tip helps protect your table. Synthetic tips can rip your table’s fabric and damage billiard balls. This is the only jump stick that features a leather tip."
So are they lying, John? It would be fairly easy for them to stick a phenolic tip on their cues, yet Ned Morris feels that the synthetic tips damage tables. What's your take on this? Is he full of it?
"In addition to advancing your jumping skills, the AT-1’s genuine buffalo-leather tip helps protect your table. Synthetic tips can rip your table’s fabric and damage billiard balls. This is the only jump stick that features a leather tip."
So are they lying, John? It would be fairly easy for them to stick a phenolic tip on their cues, yet Ned Morris feels that the synthetic tips damage tables. What's your take on this? Is he full of it?
Yes. They are lying.
Actually they are using the truth to scare people. You see any tip CAN rip the cloth if driven into it in a certain way. Repeat ANY TIP can harm the cloth.
The phenolic tips do not harm the balls in my experience, nor in the experience of the BCAPL which recently concluded that they do harm the balls (at least the brand/model of balls which they were being given by a sponsor) on the break but NOT ON THE JUMP CUE.
Stealth is not Ned Morris.
Ned and I are friends. Ooops there I go with the name dropping again.
I will tell you a little Ned Morris story to expand your knowledge.
Back before Stealth picked up the Air Jumper from Ned and when I first introduced the Bunjee Ned came up to my booth and asked if a player could try his jump cue on my exhibition table. I said sure go ahead and the player did and I tried the cue a little bit. The pitch was that because there is a "leather" tip on the Air Jumper that the player had more cueball control and that you can't draw your ball with a phenolic tipped cue. I didn't say anything while Ned was giving this pitch on my table.
Fast forward a day and I am doing a jump shot contest on my exhibition table to promote the Bunjee and show people the versatility and control. There are five shots that people have to do and whoever has the best score wins a prize. The shots range from easy to hard. Ned comes up and jokingly asks if he can be in the contest and if he can use his cue instead. I said yes but only if he uses a Bunjee.
So when it's Ned's turn he steps up to the first shot. This is an easy jump with about a foot of distance between the cue ball and blocking ball and the object ball hanging in the corner.
Ned nails the jump and DRAWS THE CUE BALL TABLE LENGTH back to the end rail. I was amazed and I said, "so you can't draw the ball with a Bunjee?" It was the best demonstration of the Bunjee jumper that we did all week. Ned put down the cue and wouldn't do any more of the shots.
- - - - I consider Ned a good friend and good competitor. Whatever is written on Steath's website is not any reflection on how I feel about him.
When I did my exhibitions Shawn I would DRIVE the tip into the cloth repeatedly to PROVE that the tip would not damage the cloth. I would walk around the table and stab the cloth with the tip at the same angle as a jump shot to prove it.
Obviously you are going to spend a lot of energy trying to discredit me on this topic. Save it for something more constructive. If I sold a cue which would harm any other equipment then I would either modify the cue OR discontinue selling it. I have been in this industry for 20+ years Shawn but I am a pool player first who respects the equipment.
Before I introduced the Bunjee Jumper I did extensive testing and practice on our Lehmacher Table with Simonis 860 in our showroom in Germany. I made SURE that the cue would not harm the cloth and I made sure I could properly demonstrate it and teach people how to use it properly.
When I get home I will do a video that demonstrates the same points I have made here in this thread. Hopefully that will be enough for you.
They're lying, and you tell nothing but the truth. You could have saved a few paragraphs, and 1 minute of my life that I'll never get back by reading this.
You should have been in the cast of "Glengarry Glen Ross", or "Boiler Room". All your facts are sensationalized beyond belief, yet all your empirical data is based on assumptions - "we haven't heard".
You will always say that jump cues should be allowed because you are financially motivated to do so. I don't like them, and it's based purely on the integrity of the game. If kicking is so easy, as some of you have stated, then we really don't NEED the jump cue, do we? Your own words, John - you had Tom Rossman show C level players to kick in 1 hour. If it's truly that easy to kick, why is there even a need for the jump cue?
The game should be played with a cue, 2 max. Break with a break cue, play with your playing cue. The way you'd want the game to be, there would be a draw cue, a follow cue, a stun cue, a jump cue, a break cue, etc., because (A) YOU SELL CUES, and (B) you make custom cases. Do you make more money on a 1x2, or a 6x12?
busby busybody
Registered
JB, You admit to having "no UNBIASED scientific tests". Delete the word unbiased from this and you get No science = no proof. "Room owners dont SEEM to be OVERLY concerned about this, PROBABLY because they already KNOW that no real danger exists" They dont seem overly concerned (so there is at least some concern) because they have been mis-informed. "Probably"= more speculation on your part, and please don't arrive at conclusions based on what you think other people know. It's insulting. All you have is alot of arbitrary,biased anecdotal, self-serving hogwash that you continue to dish up as "proof". It's not.
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I have been using a phenolic tip on my break cue like 5 years, and I check my BALLS all the time. No Damage.
Maybe the BCAPL should hit up there FREE BALL SUPPLIER (sponsor) for more balls, and let phenolic tip live.
You don't know how I would want the game to be. I chose to sell jump cues because there was and is a need for them and I was in the position to make and sell them for a lower price than the competition at the time.
The only fact is Shawn is that I have all the experience that I speak of and I know most of the pro players that you throw in my face. Therefore unless you can produce anything other than your opinion it remains only that.
If you ever tried to be objective then you would see that I have said MANY TIMES that I could care less if the jump cue were banned AS LONG AS the rules were adjusted to allow the incoming player NOT to be penalized by lucky rolls which hook him.
The fact is that under one foul rules the penalty is quite severe for not making a good hit - thus the player should have every legal shot available to them and that includes kicks and jumps and masse shots to attempt a legal hit.
I don't know why you continue to deny that kicking is easy to learn. It's not a secret anymore. In fact it's easier to learn than jumping since there are dozens of books and videos and instructors which teach the various diamond systems but hardly any of that which teaches jumping. But hey if you want to live in denial then go ahead.
If you think I am not an expert in this subject then prove why I am not. Saying, "well you are a salesman" doesn't count. Especially since you tried unsuccessfully to use a sales pitch by a competing manufacturer of jump cues to "prove" me wrong.
Why don't you just let it go? We get it that you don't like jump cues even though you use them. You don't need to continue to make up reasons against their use that aren't true.
The "integrity" of the game is now and has always been one of innovation to expand the limits of what can be done on the table. That's why we play on special cloth, with rubber rails, using tapered leather tipped cues and chalk. That's why the balls are made of phenolic resin instead of clay or ivory. Would you care to play with the standard equipment from 1820?
I mean since you are concerned with the "integrity" of the game then why don't you advocate going all the way back? You have simply decided that you don't like jump cues, although not so much that you won't use them, and you seem obsessed about promoting that dislike through false reasoning.
You seem to think that the people who make the rules, the room owners who sell jump cues, the people who buy them and use them and well, just everyone who doesn't agree with you are stupid and blind. They aren't.
Well anyway, I guess we will keep doing this dance until you quit. Go ahead and reply and I will rebut your statements again.
I have 10 years of experience doing exhibitions all around the world. I have sold more jump cues in person to more people than any other person on Earth.
Again, I have done these exhibitions on tables of all kinds and all cloth brands.
In my own shop I owned just about every brand of jump cue made and just about every make of cue ball.
I have done tests.
What is insulting is that in the face of an expert with a decade of solid experience and in the face of more than a decade of strong sales you continue to infer that jump cues are damaging the equipment when you offer no proof to the contrary.
Look, it's easy, go out and buy some jump cues, get some balls, literally and figuratively, and prove your assertions.
I have proven mine. The burden of proof is on the accuser. You Tube is your friend.
Otherwise, please give up and admit that like Shawn, you don't know what you are talking about and that all this is simply a long winded way to tell us that you just don't like jump cues with no real reason.
Huh?
You are really reaching here. A cue case maker makes what the customers want.
I didn't invent jump cues. Professional players did. I also didn't invent break cues. Professional players did. Cue makers responded by making both.
Efren Reyes uses a jump cue. So does every top professional player.
But you are smarter than them and know more about how the game should be?
busby busybody
Registered
And so it goes on. Sales "prove" your'e a good salesman. Congratulations. Your "tests" are unscientific and prove nothing. You continue to dodge every point I try to make, by repeating the same self- motivated rhetoric over and over. I understand that you will never back off your position, for obvious reasons and I respect that. However, the burden of proof is always on the one who claims to have said proof. Besides, why should I have to prove my point when you prove it for me in virtually every post. Get out your jewelers loop and check the cloth after just one full ball jumper, the evidence will be there plain as day. Crushed fibers = damage. When you say again that they are only "compressed" and that they will somehow be restored the "next time the table is cleaned", anyone with any common sense knows that can't be true. Damage = damage and that is a fact. Thats only one "reason" why I don't like jump shots. Alot of other reasons have already been posted by me, and Shawn (thank you Shawn) and others on this site. To imply that our reasons are wrong or antiquated or unrealistic for the times only illustrates your unwillingness to accept the fact that other people have valid points too. BTW The speaker implys. The listener "infers".
Just prove it. The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused.
The cloth is not being damaged. When the fibers are not broken then there is no damage. Compression does not equal breakage. Another material I deal with is foam rubber which compresses and bounces back with ease.
I am telling you that the cloth is not being damaged based 100% on my own real life, real world and EXTENSIVE experience with the subject matter.
You are telling me that the cloth is damaged because you think it is.
So until you can prove your assertions in the meaningful scientific way that you claim is the only acceptable proof I'd have to say that my experience, however tainted by the "sales" aspect of it trumps your theory.
It's really simple, you don't like jump cues and neither does Shawn. So get together and prove that they are damaging to the equipment. Show us all your experiments, complete with all the controls for variables and proper documentation.
IF you can, THEN you will be successful in getting jump cues banned and the problem is solved.
Until then however you will just have to accept that the majority of the pool world is perfectly ok with jump cues.
Thanks, I am a great salesman. Know why? It's because I know my product and how to demonstrate it and how to teach people to use it.
I also know my product does no harm to the other equipment. Know why?
Because I have tested it to make sure it doesn't. It doesn't matter if you don't believe me. It only matters that my customers, room owners, believe me and that my assertions prove true for them. And they have.
I can name a dozen people who are well known in the billiard industry who can back up every claim I have made in this thread.
Now show us your "proof".
i just say do it with a reguar cue.
said it before qhen you bowl, you dont pull out a 3 ft wide ball for a a 7-10 split. and baseball payers dont use a 12" thick bat, nor a 4 ft wide glove thats 5 ft long to snag balls going over the fence.
jump cues ruin the spirit of the game. eff em if everyone else uses em. i refuse to cheat tes i said cheat to achieve desired result.
What if one "regular" cue jumps better than most others?
I am not talking about a cue that was specifically built to jump better. I am talking about a cue that the cuemaker makes that is used as a normal cue but just happens to have excellent "jumpability".
There are such cues. If I put one famous brand in your hands and you had the ability to jump then you would feel great about the shots you could do. If I then put another famous brand in your hands you would be frustrated with your inability to make the cueball jump.
Why is it a bad thing to allow everyone to have the SAME equipment and make jumping balls truly a matter of skill?
That's what it is when you use a chalked leather tip.
Why don't you want the same thing for jumping?
