So get this. (APA League Operator Rant)

I've Forgotten

I can't even remember how many APA rant threads go on here every year?

IMHO
Bottom line up front (BLUF): APA is a pyramid scheme designed to introduce lower level players to the games of pool. It is also a money making enterprise for the LO's. The SL limit on teams is nothing more than a way to ensure new players and teams as better players/teams find it harder to play/field a team.

As long as the money flows in to APA HQ, don't expect much action on your complaints.

If you know this up front and are willing to accept the things that have been written about here numerous times....no problem.

If not , then the APA is probably not for you.

I can with 100% certainty say it's not going to change.
 
I'd be curious if one of the APA Operators that posts here could anser something. How many APA LO's are there in the US?

I ask that, because I'd love to be able to point out to folks that while there are no doubt some bad apples out there as APA LO's, the percentage must be relatively low. I certainly hope it is.

I'm assuming this based on the fact that it is the largest league system in the US, and these folks have to pay a reasonably hefty sum for their franchise rights. It remains the largest league system, and if there were that many "bad apples" I somehow doubt the league would continue to maintain such a high membership.

As we all know, bad news gets all the attention, the good news usually doesn't. My APA LO does a decent job, I have no complaints, at least none that warrant any attention here. Do I agree with everything he does, no, but in the end those issues are small potatoes, and are nothing compared to the instances detailed here that some folks have to deal with. That is really unfortunate. I just want to point out that for every bad-guy, there are usually many more good-guys...

Best of luck to you on those 7-footers!
 
Reply to "Justadub" - Last time I looked there were 268 LOs. It's always changing. And you're correct about "good apples" and "bad apples". Just like players, location owners, even posters to forums like this. Of course, I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Reply to "Poolfire"

There are 3 APA league operator areas in greater KC. Jackson county, north of the river, and Kansas side of state line. What area are you referring to? Different LOs equals different SL weekly review results, in many cases.

As for these female SL 5 & 6 that can't draw or play shape to your satisfaction - what is there WL record, what bar, what name, what's the history? What part of greater KC area?

From wording of your comment I assume you were a teammate of said females that are rated so high (otherwise why the criticism of SL). Does your team mark safes, keep proper score, don't sandbag, etc? Have your female teammates been written up for SL violations?

Your free to play where you want but many issues have more details involved than stated in your post.

If you played in Jackson county - I am (was ?) your APA LO. Call or email me if you wish to discuss. I'd like your input.

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poolfire
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kinda like here in kansas city - Yesterday, 08:41 AM

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thats why i quit apa....here in kansas city .....we have, and im not trying to insult them, women who cant play shape or draw their cue ball...but they are 5's and 6's....
 
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It was my room that he is referring to. We did start out as an in house division until the APA Nine Ball Champions opened their own room. I have had a few conversations with the LO about the perception his players had about the blatant sandbagging and asked him why he let it continue on. He basically said that unless players mark safety's on scorecard then nothing would change. To me this confirms his involvement in their low player levels. I asked him to send me his local By-laws and it had nothing about table size requirements he had mentioned. I e-mailed him about this and his reply was that that was what he was instructed to do by the LO training session he did. Funny thing is that two years ago they held divisionals on 8ft tables.
He then proceded to kick me out of the APA and told me I could call the national office that they would support his decision. He also took my in-house teams and will not let them play their playoffs here on their home tables. I am working hard to start up a BCA league and run off the players that are known to cheat the systems. We had issues with one BCA team sandbagging and it was so bad that an APA 7 National Champion was a -4 in BCA the same rank as my Eight year old son!!!!!!!
 
Wow!!!!

He kicked you out just for asking him about the table playoff regulations? There must be another reason. I would still call NATIONALS, in a professional manner and ask WHY you were kicked out, and still ask about the local by-laws and how the table regulations can change on a whim.

It may not do anything, but at least you tried, and you can have good support for starting up an in-house BCA league.

If most of the APA teams are out of your establishment, just get sanctioned for a IN-House BCA league, and start it immediately at your place. Get all of the teams that currently play in your LO's APA league, and ask them to move to BCA - They might be as fed-up with the LO as you and your teams, but have nowhere to go - GIVE THEM A PLACE!!!! Have a meeting with all teams - advertise it, and make sure to have all of your info together to show what the BCA can do for them over the APA - session player/team payouts, vegas trip availability, all prizes, and finally the fees for membership - weekly and yearly.

It might take work, but in the end, you could be part of something that all players can enjoy and decrease the profit of a crooked APA LO.

Good luck in what you decide to do. Let me know if you have any questions - been there- done that.


Michael
 
Defintely the ranking and the rules are different in every town for this APA thing.
I have a bad feeling that if the rules continue to be inconsistent then it may be heading for bad times...
 
I recently dropped out of the APA league I played in, We had a 1st place team all season, but ended up losing in the play-offs to a wild card team, reasons well. there were several... 1 st the night before playoffs there was a meeting in which none of our team were told of. they raised the skill level of a guy who had been a 3 for like 6 seasons to a 4 w/o any just cause because of other teams *****ing and crying, this guy won 3 out of 8 matches all session.. all over 15 innings. the last match which raised him was off of a time out called by me in which a safety was played. now after I quit. this poor guy is still a 4 and has not won a match since.

the other reasons we lost was the 4 I played (I am a SKL 6) won 3 straight in 4 total innings.

and because the genius LO raised our 3 to a 4 we had to forfeit the last match in which we were 2-2 in a race to 3 nice HUH?

on a side note we have one jerk off (team captain) who prints out extra sheets (BCA) and changes the scores so that his team members wont go up in handicap ( I was on his team until I learned of this) Its a shame but when cheating occurs it ruins it for all. the APA will never receive another dime from me.
 
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thats why i quit apa....here in kansas city .....we have, and im not trying to insult them, women who cant play shape or draw their cue ball...but they are 5's and 6's....
Yep, that's pretty much why I quit APA...
At a regional tournament a "3" broke and ran a rack on my "6" teammate!
 
To SKJoss72 - I have quoted parts of your post for illustrative purposes only, to show what could actually be going on. I'm NOT saying any of this is true of you or your (prior) team, only that the moral of a story is somewhat dependent on who tells it and to whom it is told.

I read the APA horror stories here and in other forums, and sometimes I have to smile - I read them a little differently than most. Here are a few of the things that went through my mind as I read SKJoss72's post:

I recently dropped out of the APA league I played in, We had a 1st place team all season, but ended up losing in the play-offs to a wild card team, reasons well. there were several...
This is where I thought to myself "I bet none of the reasons is they played well and we didn't"...

1 st the night before playoffs there was a meeting in which none of our team were told of. they raised the skill level of a guy who had been a 3 for like 6 seasons to a 4 w/o any just cause because of other teams *****ing and crying
"*****ing and crying" means skill level complaints, but only if they are made against you or your teammates. When I read this, I thought "hmmmm, probably a skill level complaint coming later"

this guy won 3 out of 8 matches all session.. all over 15 innings.
I actually chuckled out loud when I read this part. Why the need to point out that ALL the wins were over 15 innings? Is 15 some magic number? Why are you remembering how many innings he had in all of his wins? Are you counting? Why are you counting?

the last match which raised him was off of a time out called by me in which a safety was played.
Sure, that match alone is the reason he went up. LO's hear this one all the time. Maybe that one match was enough to push him over the line, but he had to be standing with his toes on the line for that to happen.

In other words, it's never one match. It could be a couple of great matches last session or even the session before that, matches that pushed him right up to the line, and this session he had a match or two that are better than the rest of the matches he had back then, so he's now over the line.

None of that really applies in this specific case, though - it was the top secret meeting the night before playoffs.

now after I quit. this poor guy is still a 4 and has not won a match since.
You know this happens a lot, right? It's another thing LO's see and hear a lot. Someone goes up and loses a lot of matches in a row. The LO now has to decide if the player is over-rated or if there's something else going on. More often than not, it's something else. I usually look to see if the player is getting to the hill. If they can't even get to the hill, it's not the skill level - it's either intentional or psychological. I mean, if the player could win two games before going up, why can't he win two games after going up?

the other reasons we lost was the 4 I played (I am a SKL 6) won 3 straight in 4 total innings.
Ah, there it is. I knew it was coming.

and because the genius LO raised our 3 to a 4 we had to forfeit the last match in which we were 2-2 in a race to 3 nice HUH?
When an LO reads this line, the first thought is usually "Seriously? One player goes up one skill level and now the team can't field 23 at all?" Then we go back and look at the roster, and it's either "Wow, I didn't even notice that" or "What a moron - they could have met 23 with a different combination" or "No, they forfeited because the player they needed wasn't there". Either way, my point is that the ability of a team to meet 23 is not the LO's concern when adjusting skill levels - the accuracy of the skill levels is the only concern. It has to be that way, otherwise the LO is enabling sandbaggers.

While there are probably a few LO's who would do this to spite a team, the majority don't even notice, the majority of those who do notice will put skill level accuracy ahead of the ability to meet 23, and the majority who do it intentionally are doing it to a team that deserves it (cheaters).

Again, to SKJoss72, I'm not trying to attack you. For all any of us know, your LO could be an a-hole who likes to screw innocent teams. As TCIndepMo says, there are some bad apples everywhere - maybe you got one. I just wanted to point out that sometimes the villain in the story isn't the LO. I could have picked half a dozen posts from this thread to make my point - yours was just the most recent.
 
Sounds like you're getting screwed to me. If you came in first you shouldn't even need to go to the playoffs.....you should go straight to the cities. The playoffs are for teams that came in lower places, or at least that is how it is here.

We also do the playoffs on 9s or BBs depending on where it is held that time. The cities is always held on BBs though.
 
Ok here's my 2 cents based on the 4 years Ive played in the APA. S/L changes happen a lot mostly due to other teams complaining. They complain because they lose. If other teams would stop complaining and let the system do its job this wouldnt be an issue.
Secondly the L/O in my area has his favorite teams which tend to see Las Vegas a lot more than any other team.
Thirdly We just had 2 teams quit our league b/c of a "subjective decision". The team won the session, won the tri-annuals, and then 4 weeks into the next season they had 2 people on there team go up s/l making it impossible for their 7 to shoot. They only had 6 ppl on the roster. Well one of their players went back down so now the 7 could play again. Problem with that is the player that went down basically got put on house arrest. Now we all have our problems and we get through them, but, now no matter what they have to forfeit one game. This knocked them from 2nd place down to 7th in a matter of 3 weeks. Well the L/O decided to DSQ them from the Las Vegas Qualifier due to them "not being competive". Now when they called and asked a member of the office they said that competitiveness was "subjective". Can someone explain this for me?
 
He kicked you out just for asking him about the table playoff regulations? There must be another reason. I would still call NATIONALS, in a professional manner and ask WHY you were kicked out, and still ask about the local by-laws and how the table regulations can change on a whim.

It may not do anything, but at least you tried, and you can have good support for starting up an in-house BCA league.

If most of the APA teams are out of your establishment, just get sanctioned for a IN-House BCA league, and start it immediately at your place. Get all of the teams that currently play in your LO's APA league, and ask them to move to BCA - They might be as fed-up with the LO as you and your teams, but have nowhere to go - GIVE THEM A PLACE!!!! Have a meeting with all teams - advertise it, and make sure to have all of your info together to show what the BCA can do for them over the APA - session player/team payouts, vegas trip availability, all prizes, and finally the fees for membership - weekly and yearly.

It might take work, but in the end, you could be part of something that all players can enjoy and decrease the profit of a crooked APA LO.

Good luck in what you decide to do. Let me know if you have any questions - been there- done that.


Michael

I believe he kicked me out and moved teams out of my location so his friend who just opened a room could gain some teams. Unfortunately for him those teams have agreed to play BCA in a few weeks at my room. I am working on getting this started so we can send a team to Vegas. I will help to oversee the BCA with help from a few local players sick of constant sandbagging and a deceptive and bias LO.

I recieved a call from Mark Griffin last night and it seems that the Gentleman running my last in house BCA was not even sanctioned and the winning teams do not have a shot at Vegas due to this fraud. He was very nice and offered his help in starting a legit league here. Now I did not call APA or BCA but he reads the boards and called me. Have not heard from the APA at all. Thank you Mark for your support!:thumbup:
 
Just wanted to update that we won our Division Championship, despite the problems we've been having. And what's funny is that we didn't play on 7' tables, we played on 8' instead, so I guess that's one more lie to throw ontop of the pile. I can't wait to see what sort of rigaramarole gets thrown at us for the Regional event.

I too was contacted by Mark Griffin, CEO of the BCAPL, and find it encouraging that he's concerned about what's been going on. I've still yet to hear a peep from anyone involved with the APA though.
 
To SKJoss72 - I have quoted parts of your post for illustrative purposes only, to show what could actually be going on. I'm NOT saying any of this is true of you or your (prior) team, only that the moral of a story is somewhat dependent on who tells it and to whom it is told.

I read the APA horror stories here and in other forums, and sometimes I have to smile - I read them a little differently than most. Here are a few of the things that went through my mind as I read SKJoss72's post:


This is where I thought to myself "I bet none of the reasons is they played well and we didn't"...


"*****ing and crying" means skill level complaints, but only if they are made against you or your teammates. When I read this, I thought "hmmmm, probably a skill level complaint coming later"


I actually chuckled out loud when I read this part. Why the need to point out that ALL the wins were over 15 innings? Is 15 some magic number? Why are you remembering how many innings he had in all of his wins? Are you counting? Why are you counting?


Sure, that match alone is the reason he went up. LO's hear this one all the time. Maybe that one match was enough to push him over the line, but he had to be standing with his toes on the line for that to happen.

In other words, it's never one match. It could be a couple of great matches last session or even the session before that, matches that pushed him right up to the line, and this session he had a match or two that are better than the rest of the matches he had back then, so he's now over the line.

None of that really applies in this specific case, though - it was the top secret meeting the night before playoffs.


You know this happens a lot, right? It's another thing LO's see and hear a lot. Someone goes up and loses a lot of matches in a row. The LO now has to decide if the player is over-rated or if there's something else going on. More often than not, it's something else. I usually look to see if the player is getting to the hill. If they can't even get to the hill, it's not the skill level - it's either intentional or psychological. I mean, if the player could win two games before going up, why can't he win two games after going up?


Ah, there it is. I knew it was coming.


When an LO reads this line, the first thought is usually "Seriously? One player goes up one skill level and now the team can't field 23 at all?" Then we go back and look at the roster, and it's either "Wow, I didn't even notice that" or "What a moron - they could have met 23 with a different combination" or "No, they forfeited because the player they needed wasn't there". Either way, my point is that the ability of a team to meet 23 is not the LO's concern when adjusting skill levels - the accuracy of the skill levels is the only concern. It has to be that way, otherwise the LO is enabling sandbaggers.

While there are probably a few LO's who would do this to spite a team, the majority don't even notice, the majority of those who do notice will put skill level accuracy ahead of the ability to meet 23, and the majority who do it intentionally are doing it to a team that deserves it (cheaters).

Again, to SKJoss72, I'm not trying to attack you. For all any of us know, your LO could be an a-hole who likes to screw innocent teams. As TCIndepMo says, there are some bad apples everywhere - maybe you got one. I just wanted to point out that sometimes the villain in the story isn't the LO. I could have picked half a dozen posts from this thread to make my point - yours was just the most recent.

Hey Although I am new to these forums doesn't mean I am new to the game and how Skill levels SHOULD work. the team in question has been around for 4 years, in a Chester county PA division: the guy who was a 3 for forever was recruited because In everyones eyes he'd never go up to a 4 this is because of his constant missing horrible positioning, and all around stupid ways of shooting, we had the following SK levels 6, 6, 5, 5,5,4,3,3, this was until the meeting,(then one of our 3's went to a 4 unjustly) now I am not even complaining the two 5's that are questionable: just the 3 which we needed, because our other 3 was out of town. so because of the guy going up which we didnt notice until the middle of the match we had to forfeit, so we played Myself (6) another 6, two 4's now It debateable whether the guy who beat me is better than a 4 but I'd say with 4 inning in 3 games a case can be made, (maybe this should have been mentioned in the secret meeting.) it seems that by trying to make a somewhat sarcastic LO biased set of statements based on what I said. that this is a defense mechanism... so I will say this, my conscience is clear and I dont go around trying to raise peoples skill level, so that the team breaks apart and has to form another team....I know this is to make more money for you guys, but at the expense of being fair is what i cant stand. raise people based on actual skill not because of complaining. I could go on but I think you get my point
 
You know this happens a lot, right? It's another thing LO's see and hear a lot. Someone goes up and loses a lot of matches in a row. The LO now has to decide if the player is over-rated or if there's something else going on. More often than not, it's something else. I usually look to see if the player is getting to the hill. If they can't even get to the hill, it's not the skill level - it's either intentional or psychological. I mean, if the player could win two games before going up, why can't he win two games after going up?


I reread this and had to respond, is it you job to assume there's something going on? how can this be done accurately without secretly watching a match and having obvious sandbagging. I'll tell you by jerkoff complaining as is the case i mentioned, In my 7 years with the APA I have never seen a LO watch more than say 30 seconds of any match and that was because they were there for other reasons. there are lots of reasons a newly raised person can loose, one they aren't the level they are rated, 2 the team captain playes them agains a different SL than they would have if they were lower, (because they still want to win)3 possible something in their head like you mentioned,4 sand bagging.5 I am sure other I cant think of.

When I was running my team, I knew the limits of my players including myself. and because of the small league we were in. its easy to know the limits of pretty much all your opponents. so if they go up unjustly major problems come into play.

also I dont complain about SL's that are legit. a few years back I went to a 7 why because I was playing rather well, then went into a 7 game losing streak, no complaints here. I just dealt with it it took a league REP to discuss my SLwith the LO, for me to be lowered, I guess he felt sorry for me who knows, so my point is You guys can do what you feel you want to do, and alot of time it has no merrit and end up making a whole bunch of people pissed. and a few people happy. I will play in the BCA again. although I know this sort of thing may still happen, at least I dont have to deal with the lesser quality rules that cater to lower skill levels
 
You won't hear from APA....

APA does not align itself with the real world of pool...They are not concerned with anything more than APA. Occassionally you will see an APA league operator come to bat here in the forums in anti-APA threads. The saddest part is that this great site here on azbilliards is one that most league players and operators do not even know exists.

APA is independent and does not care to have a place in the poolworld as we know it. This is why most league players don't know Archer or Reyes. It's sad that the people who play pool do not know the greats of the game. Even those that do not play golf know of Tiger Woods (and not just cause of his colorful personal life). APA is out only to promote APA. In no way are they trying to promote pool. Sure, they have commercials on ESPN and banners during WPBA events. This is advertisement for them. They use the media coverage of pro events and players like Jeanette to promote APA and only APA.

Don't expect Hubbart or Bell, APA founders and ex pro players, to come on here and try to make things right. Until the money stops rolling in APA will not go out of its way to better its easily manipulated handicap system or worry about what people in a pool forum think of them.
 
thats why i quit apa....here in kansas city .....we have, and im not trying to insult them, women who cant play shape or draw their cue ball...but they are 5's and 6's....
can't draw, a 6?..u been had ..sorry... atleast from where i come from...if a women is a six, I'll take her rat to a dance that knight and then of to Vegas to make babies, or were we suppose to get maried first, anyway that women being a 6 is a hottie in our town,,,,love them there 6's...jmho
 
APA does not align itself with the real world of pool...They are not concerned with anything more than APA. Occassionally you will see an APA league operator come to bat here in the forums in anti-APA threads. The saddest part is that this great site here on azbilliards is one that most league players and operators do not even know exists.

APA is independent and does not care to have a place in the poolworld as we know it. This is why most league players don't know Archer or Reyes. It's sad that the people who play pool do not know the greats of the game. Even those that do not play golf know of Tiger Woods (and not just cause of his colorful personal life). APA is out only to promote APA. In no way are they trying to promote pool. Sure, they have commercials on ESPN and banners during WPBA events. This is advertisement for them. They use the media coverage of pro events and players like Jeanette to promote APA and only APA.

Don't expect Hubbart or Bell, APA founders and ex pro players, to come on here and try to make things right. Until the money stops rolling in APA will not go out of its way to better its easily manipulated handicap system or worry about what people in a pool forum think of them.

As is often the case here on AZB, you're missing the point about APA. YOU might wish that everyone involved playing APA would like to be a serious pool player, and to want to be up on everything pool-related like many folks here on AZB are. YOU might think that everyone that plays pool should be somewhat serious about it, or at least take it seriously. But the majority of people who play in APA leagues aren't interested in living and breathing pool, and that should be OK.

Even if they don't know who Efren is.

Yes, they would benefit from reading the fantastic material here. I know I do, and I'm only a lowly APA league player myself. They might get inspired to better their game, play in tournaments, support equipment dealers & manufacturers by buying new stuff, and so on.

But many of these folks are looking for a casual night out with friends or family. The current poll on their website asks how players came to play in an APA league, and over 90% replied that they were there because of a family member or friend. They didn't come to play APA League pool because they were looking for a new passion in life.

Stop trying to make league players into something they aren't. And won't be. Some of us are trying to do just what you wish, and learn more about the game, etc. Finding a passion for it. There really are more people into pool as a result of APA, just not the number you're looking for.

Yes, the APA is out to promote APA. That is what they are supposed to do, for their business. By promoting their league system and getting thousands of players to play every week, they are promoting pool. Those poolrooms would be much emptier without APA pool every week. You can extrapolate that out further if you like, as to how many rooms might close were it not for league business every week getting people interested in at least playing casually. THEN how would pool benefit, with less pool rooms open for you, the serious player? That should be enough "promoting" for one business. Their advertising supports pool ventures, be they tournaments, TV, or websites like this one. (You have seen that banner ad at the top, haven't you? You do like coming here to AZB, don't you?) This is not even accounting for the trickle down of players who do grow out of APA play eventually, on to more "serious" pool.

And you're probably right, I doubt seriously that the people who run APA care much about what people on a pool forum think about them. Because if they would ever read the APA threads here, they would know that the "serious pool" world doesn't much care for them anyway, so why should they even cater to this crowd. Regardless of what they bring to the pool world. I don't blame them. And the old axiom is true, those who make the most noise in any situation account for less than 10% of the people involved, so they aren't really worried about AZB, or any other board.

Have fun, however serious you take things, like pool.
 
Merlin

Some advice. Kiss those leagues goodbye. Get back to those nice 9 footers and start a 14.1 round robin with people who like to shoot pool.

Dave Nelson
 
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