The value of "going home"...aka finishing your stroke!

This is an interesting thread. Thanks to Scott for starting it! I started a thread a while back based on my seeing many amateur players not completing a full stroke, ie: drawing the cue back to the ferrule or the tip and only accelerating through the cue ball a short distance because of it. I've personally found that when I execute a full stroke, back swing and forward, coupled with an awareness of "speed of stroke", I seem to execute better. By this, I mean both pocketing the object ball and control of the cue ball for position.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
I think you're right. However, I think an *inconsistent* elbow dropper might have a tough time of it. I know I drop my elbow on most shots. If I start dropping before contact, it is very likely that I may add speed to my cue. This added speed may or may not fit the *required* speed for the shot. I think Scott's advice is great. I generally would agree with the concept that the advice would be helpful for all types of strokes. I just think elbow droppers would derive the most benefit if they drop their elbow the same way on every shot.
KMRUNOUT
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You hit the nail on the head there as to why I (think) it would also benefit a person that has an elbow drop.

In some cases it may actually reduce or even eliminate the elbow drop. Worst case scenario (IMO) is that it would make the elbow drop consistent....or perhaps just more consistent than it was.

I could be wrong though.
 
Pushout...You're welcome! The really interesting thing is that with a finish position for both your tip and hand, you can train yourself to hold the cue loosely, so that even when you stroke very fast, your body stops your cue's forward motion (because the grip hand hits the body)...as opposed to "clenching" the cue, at the end of your stroke (which is very common). More importantly, it allows you to see when you make an error; what error you made; and self-correct yourself on the next stroke. Diagnostic tools are an amazing personal resource in your pool game. Again, this whole concept is about learning to let the cue do all the work, instead of muscling the stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Pushout said:
This is an interesting thread. Thanks to Scott for starting it! I started a thread a while back based on my seeing many amateur players not completing a full stroke, ie: drawing the cue back to the ferrule or the tip and only accelerating through the cue ball a short distance because of it. I've personally found that when I execute a full stroke, back swing and forward, coupled with an awareness of "speed of stroke", I seem to execute better. By this, I mean both pocketing the object ball and control of the cue ball for position.
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Scott Lee said:
Again, this whole concept is about learning to let the cue do all the work, instead of muscling the stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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A wise man told me once that controlling the cue ball is important and being able to pocket shots is important too.

However, the same wise man told me that the #1 thing to control in pool/billiards is the cue stick. Once you have mastered your cue, then you are on the way to success.

I've even mentioned this to other instructors and players and they all seemed to agree.

DCP
 
Lou...I'm not at all surprised by your comment. You obviously did not read the first post in this thread. I stated initially that this idea has the potential to benefit the huge majority of players, who are NOT already expert, semi-pro, or pro-level players (although I have had pro players tell me it helped them too). IMO, one the biggest problems in players trying to improve the quality and consistency of their stroke process, is trying to emulate what they see some pro do. It's a much quicker path, and a faster learning curve, to utilize the way your body already works efficiently...than trying to copy something that some pro has down to a "T", after years of effort.

Either you don't clearly understand the physical process I'm talking about, or you simply disagree. Either way, I would be more than happy to spend an hour SHOWING you what I'm talking about (if you're willing), so at least then you can make an informed opinion (as opposed to a "gut feeling"). Are you still in the St. Louis area? For some reason I thought you lived in S. CA.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lfigueroa said:
I guess I'm a non-believer on this one. The next tournament I go to I'll have to watch for this, but my memory and gut tell me this cannot be so for most top players.

Lou Figueroa
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Scott Lee said:
Lou...I'm not at all surprised by your comment. You obviously did not read the first post in this thread. I stated initially that this idea has the potential to benefit the huge majority of players, who are NOT already expert, semi-pro, or pro-level players (although I have had pro players tell me it helped them too). IMO, one the biggest problems in players trying to improve the quality and consistency of their stroke process, is trying to emulate what they see some pro do. It's a much quicker path, and a faster learning curve, to utilize the way your body already works efficiently...than trying to copy something that some pro has down to a "T", after years of effort.

Either you don't clearly understand the physical process I'm talking about, or you simply disagree. Either way, I would be more than happy to spend an hour SHOWING you what I'm talking about (if you're willing), so at least then you can make an informed opinion (as opposed to a "gut feeling"). Are you still in the St. Louis area? For some reason I thought you lived in S. CA.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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No, Scott. I'm not one of those guys that says , "I haven't read this whole thread, but..." I read everything before I jump and that's why I asked for a clarification: was this something you were suggesting was good and a goal to strive for. You said yes and I don't believe that to be so. After 40 years of playing and gambling and watching I would not call my opinion "uniformed," but if that makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

And, if the condenscending attitude you display in your response to me is indicative of your teaching style -- when someone questions or disagrees with one of your theories -- I think I'll pass on your offer.

Lou Figueroa
 
Lou...Okay, so what is it that you don't understand, about "this isn't about top players"...it's about a better quality and consistent stroke process for the other 99% of poolplayers"? My statement, and question to you was not meant to be condescending in any way, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I truly feel that you simply don't understand what I'm trying to convey, and would love an opportunity to explain it to you in person. If you choose to ignore that chance, that's okay too. Then, imo, it becomes something we instructors recognize and emphasize to all of our students..."Don't let what you KNOW, get in the way of learning something new!" That doesn't mean you have to adopt it...it just means that most well educated people choose to look at the bigger picture, expose themselves to ALL kinds of information, and choose what works best for them. My offer to you is meant as an extension (call it extending a hand in friendship, as opposed to confrontation) to understand something from a different perspective. The offer still stands...what do you have to lose?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lfigueroa said:
No, Scott. I'm not one of those guys that says , "I haven't read this whole thread, but..." I read everything before I jump and that's why I asked for a clarification: was this something you were suggesting was good and a goal to strive for. You said yes and I don't believe that to be so. After 40 years of playing and gambling and watching I would not call my opinion "uniformed," but if that makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

And, if the condenscending attitude you display in your response to me is indicative of your teaching style -- when someone questions or disagrees with one of your theories -- I think I'll pass on your offer.

Lou Figueroa
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Scott Lee said:
Lou...Okay, so what is it that you don't understand, about "this isn't about top players"...it's about a better quality and consistent stroke process for the other 99% of poolplayers"? My statement, and question to you was not meant to be condescending in any way, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. I truly feel that you simply don't understand what I'm trying to convey, and would love an opportunity to explain it to you in person. If you choose to ignore that chance, that's okay too. Then, imo, it becomes something we instructors recognize and emphasize to all of our students..."Don't let what you KNOW, get in the way of learning something new!" That doesn't mean you have to adopt it...it just means that most well educated people choose to look at the bigger picture, expose themselves to ALL kinds of information, and choose what works best for them. My offer to you is meant as an extension (call it extending a hand in friendship, as opposed to confrontation) to understand something from a different perspective. The offer still stands...what do you have to lose?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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You know, as much as I'd like to take what you're saying about not being condescending at face value, a re-reading of the post I took umbrage at and this one starting off: "...so what is it that you don't understand, about 'this isn't about top players'" and then the part about, "If you choose to ignore that chance, that's okay too. Then, imo, it becomes something we instructors recognize and emphasize to all of our students...'Don't let what you KNOW, get in the way of learning something new!'" makes that tough to swallow.

So I'm still going to pass. I think you have an attitude and communication "issue" and I don't mean that in a condescending way either ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
perhaps in an effort to get back on the track of this thread......

i dont think i am ever going to keep that upper arm still and/or up. it is just way, way too natural for me to drop it some. the only time i can keep it there is when i use the Stroke Groover. and then its only because the Stroke Groover wont allow it to drop. the moment i take the strap off, down comes the upper arm. even if i make a conscious effort to keep it up there, it still drops some. i never bought this concept of "Muscle Memory" so i am afraid i'm going to be a dropper.

i guess i'll just have to learn to live with it. and as one instructor said, if you can deliver that cue tip straight through the aim line on a consistent basis, thats what really matters. i guess i'll just have to focus on that concept and forget about keeping the arm up/still.

DCP
 
lfigueroa said:
You know, as much as I'd like to take what you're saying about not being condescending at face value, a re-reading of the post I took umbrage at and this one starting off: "...so what is it that you don't understand, about 'this isn't about top players'" and then the part about, "If you choose to ignore that chance, that's okay too. Then, imo, it becomes something we instructors recognize and emphasize to all of our students...'Don't let what you KNOW, get in the way of learning something new!'" makes that tough to swallow.

So I'm still going to pass. I think you have an attitude and communication "issue" and I don't mean that in a condescending way either ;-)

Lou Figueroa
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To hear Scott tell you this stuff in person would be to hear it in a whole new way. I heard it (and learned it) myself earlier this month. It's good stuff.

To each his own, but I can tell you genuinely that Scott is a good guy, and is not intending to talk down to you or speak in a condescending manner.
 
Lou...You said, "I've played for 40 yrs, and my gut tells me pro players don't do this." I replied, "It's not about what pro players do...it's about what MOST poolplayers can do, to help themselves create a more accurate and consistent stroke." Then I offered, for free, to come to you, demonstrate and explain what I'm talking about, so that you can at least have a well-rounded opinion (and you don't even have to agree with it), and you don't want to hear about it, or see it. Okay. I'm sorry you cannot see this for what it is...an offer to show you something that maybe you don't know. You love pool, and have been around for a long time. I love pool and have been around for a long time. My offer is merely an exchange of ideas.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

lfigueroa said:
You know, as much as I'd like to take what you're saying about not being condescending at face value, a re-reading of the post I took umbrage at and this one starting off: "...so what is it that you don't understand, about 'this isn't about top players'" and then the part about, "If you choose to ignore that chance, that's okay too. Then, imo, it becomes something we instructors recognize and emphasize to all of our students...'Don't let what you KNOW, get in the way of learning something new!'" makes that tough to swallow.

So I'm still going to pass. I think you have an attitude and communication "issue" and I don't mean that in a condescending way either ;-)

Lou Figueroa
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Scott Lee said:
Okay. I'm sorry you cannot see this for what it is...an offer to show you something that maybe you don't know. You love pool, and have been around for a long time. I love pool and have been around for a long time. My offer is merely an exchange of ideas.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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Damn nice offer Scott....If ever you are in Phoenix and would like to make that same offer...I would be down in a heartbeat....I would love to talk pool over dinner and drinks....However....I have only been playing pool for 20 years....(not 40)

Then again...that same offer is open to anyone that posts on this board if they are ever in Phoenix....I love to talk pool.....strangly....almost as much as actually playing it......almost...:wink:
 
Thank you once again.

let's surmise shall we...
If only one person takes umbrage (personal or otherwise) with what is put out on a AZ thread I would consider that a very successful thread.
Thanks for sharing Scott, incorporating immediately!
Tommy
 
Ken...It would be my pleasure. You might just get your wish in early Nov. I'll be coming through Phoenix, on my way to S. CA. PM me your phone number.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

BRKNRUN said:
Damn nice offer Scott....If ever you are in Phoenix and would like to make that same offer...I would be down in a heartbeat....I would love to talk pool over dinner and drinks....However....I have only been playing pool for 20 years....(not 40)

Then again...that same offer is open to anyone that posts on this board if they are ever in Phoenix....I love to talk pool.....strangly....almost as much as actually playing it......almost...:wink:
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You're welcome Tommy! While I don't make any claim to know everything, I'm always open to learning new things, and sharing what I know with anyone else. BTW, I'll be up your way in December...pm sent.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Catahula said:
let's surmise shall we...
If only one person takes umbrage (personal or otherwise) with what is put out on a AZ thread I would consider that a very successful thread.
Thanks for sharing Scott, incorporating immediately!
Tommy
Click to expand...
 
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