Why CTE is silly

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You are saying that there are 2 pivots. One right to left, and one left to right, that yield two different cuts.
Fine. I am not disagreeing with you on that.

I am simply saying, that in my example, PICK ONE.
Either a right to left pivot, or a left to right one, and use it for all 3 shots that are set up that have the same thickness.

You wouldn't have to switch pivots if they were all the same thickness, correct?


OK this is where you are getting confused. As the OB pocket relationship changes. This will determine if it requires the thick or thin hit. I'm telling you if you would just go to the table this will become obvious.

I can't just pick one as you suggest. CTE as it was taught to me is a pivot based system. If you change the OB pocket relationship by pushing the setup down table you have to make the transition from thick to thin.
 
Stan:
PJ, with all due respect, YOU are no Hal Houle!!
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You probably think that's an insult, but thanks anyway, Stan. Hal's a good guy, but he's the last person I'd want to sound like in this conversation.

pj
chgo
 
eezbank said:
OK this is where you are getting confused. As the OB pocket relationship changes. This will determine if it requires the thick or thin hit. I'm telling you if you would just go to the table this will become obvious.

I can't just pick one as you suggest. CTE as it was taught to me is a pivot based system. If you change the OB pocket relationship by pushing the setup down table you have to make the transition from thick to thin.
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Ok, this is going to get annoying.
If you are not reading my posts, please say so, because i am not confused, but apparently, you are.

This is what i said.
SUPERSTAR said:
So set up 3 shots with the same "thickness" of the shot, so that the pivot is the same. Either all right to left, or all left to right.
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Which simply stated means, set up 3 shots on my center line, same distance apart, blah blah blah where the object balls are relatively close to each other (maybe a balls distance apart so that on all the shots are in the same class of shot (thick thin or extra thin), the pivot is the SAME for all of them.

This is not a case of the shot angle, determining the pivot.
This is a case of you manipulating the shot for a test, so that you use the same pivot each time because all the shots are similar, because you set them up that way.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You probably think that's an insult, but thanks anyway, Stan. Hal's a good guy, but he's the last person I'd want to sound like in this conversation.

pj
chgo
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PJ, I will let post 1108 speak for itself. I prefaced my comment to you "with all due respect" I meant what I said......

Stan
 
SUPERSTAR said:
If you can't give me an explanation, then both our time is being wasted.

I am not looking for results.
I am looking for an explanation for the results that people claim.

This is what you said.



You are saying that there are 2 pivots. One right to left, and one left to right, that yield two different cuts.
Fine. I am not disagreeing with you on that.

I am simply saying, that in my example, PICK ONE.
Either a right to left pivot, or a left to right one, and use it for all 3 shots that are set up that have the same thickness.

You wouldn't have to switch pivots if they were all the same thickness, correct?

Now, if you are pivoting the same way on each of the same thickness shots, that are the same distance, on the same line yada yada yada, WHY DOES THE EXIT ANGLE CHANGE INSTEAD OF STAY THE SAME?!?!

Now don't get me wrong.
I have friends who swear by CTE, and they seem to have great success with it.
I just want to decipher if it is an actual system, or some aggrandized FEEL pre-shot routine mechanism that has them fooled into THINKING it's a system.

There is a big difference between the two.
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I would be glad to send you my 90/90 diagrams to look over. I think you will eventually pick up on a point that I stated before about thick and thin. You can apply this idea to your current drawing and find a self taught solution. The basic principles are exactly the same.

Best,
Mike
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Ok, this is going to get annoying.
If you are not reading my posts, please say so, because i am not confused, but apparently, you are.

This is what i said.


Which simply stated means, set up 3 shots on my center line, same distance apart, blah blah blah where the object balls are relatively close to each other (maybe a balls distance apart so that on all the shots are in the same class of shot (thick thin or extra thin), the pivot is the SAME for all of them.

This is not a case of the shot angle, determining the pivot.
This is a case of you manipulating the shot for a test, so that you use the same pivot each time because all the shots are similar, because you set them up that way.
Click to expand...

Yes, I must be confused. Obviously if you ignore the OB pocket relationship and don't adjust you'll drill the ball into the rail.
 
eezbank said:
Yes, I must be confused. Obviously if you ignore the OB pocket relationship and don't adjust you'll drill the ball into the rail.
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Yes, you are confused over something relatively easy.

I am not ignoring the OB pocket relationship.
Just set it up so that the relationship is the same for all 3 shots.
All thick, all thin, all extra thin.

All things being equal, the exit angle must be the same with the scenario i presented.

Please, feel free to prove me wrong.
Some evidence would be appreciated.

Your telling me that it works, is not providing evidence.
 
SUPERSTAR:
I just want to decipher if it is an actual system, or some aggrandized FEEL pre-shot routine mechanism that has them fooled into THINKING it's a system.
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It's the latter. The only real mystery over the years of "debate" about this is why CTE users seem to feel it's necessary to believe otherwise.

As for eezbank's left/right pivot distinction, that's how "thick" and "thin" shots are differentiated. "Thick" means thicker than half ball; "thin" means thinner than half ball. Any finer adjustment than that is up to the shooter to make by feel. I think Stan will try to define some further refinements on his DVD, but they can't be both accurate and simple. Look at Spidey's blog entry about "arcing to the shot circle" for an incomprehensible example.

The short answer is you're right and eezbank, like all CTE users, doesn't have a clue what he's trying to say, much less how to say it.

pj
chgo
 
SUPERSTAR said:
Yes, you are confused over something relatively easy.

I am not ignoring the OB pocket relationship.
Just set it up so that the relationship is the same for all 3 shots.
All thick, all thin, all extra thin.

All things being equal, the exit angle must be the same with the scenario i presented.

Please, feel free to prove me wrong.
Some evidence would be appreciated.

Your telling me that it works, is not providing evidence.
Click to expand...

They aren't equal. As you push the setup down table you MUST make the transition from thick to thin. If you could just understand that very basic idea I think you would understand.

I see mike also offered to send you his 90/90 info. I suggest you take him up on that. It's great info and easier to understand than cte.

Also I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I'm trying my hardest to help you understand. If I could just get you to lower your guard and try it at the table maybe you will see what it is I'm trying to get across.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's the latter. The only real mystery over the years of "debate" about this is why CTE users seem to feel it's necessary to believe otherwise.

As for eezbank's left/right pivot distinction, that's how "thick" and "thin" shots are differentiated. "Thick" means thicker than half ball; "thin" means thinner than half ball. Any finer adjustment than that is up to the shooter to make by feel. I think Stan will try to define some further refinements on his DVD, but they can't be both accurate and simple. Look at Spidey's blog entry about "arcing to the shot circle" for an incomprehensible example.

The short answer is you're right and eezbank, like all CTE users, doesn't have a clue what he's trying to say, much less how to say it.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
as usual the only thing you bring to the discussion are insults and misinformation.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's the latter. The only real mystery over the years of "debate" about this is why CTE users seem to feel it's necessary to believe otherwise.

As for eezbank's left/right pivot distinction, that's how "thick" and "thin" shots are differentiated. "Thick" means thicker than half ball; "thin" means thinner than half ball. Any finer adjustment than that is up to the shooter to make by feel. I think Stan will try to define some further refinements on his DVD, but they can't be both accurate and simple. Look at Spidey's blog entry about "arcing to the shot circle" for an incomprehensible example.

The short answer is you're right and eezbank, like all CTE users, doesn't have a clue what he's trying to say, much less how to say it.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Right.
I know what the pivots are for.
I just don't think anyone can provide an explanation to explain my picture.
When you manipulate all aspects of the shot so that it becomes a "control" situation, i believe that the concept of CTE fails.

That is not going to stop people from firing balls in while "using" CTE, but i happen to think that it is not due to CTE, but instead results from an aiming process that has a lot of feel involved in it, which they either don't realize or care to admit.
If it is feel based, then it isn't a system IMO. Regardless of how much people claim that it is.
Until someone proves otherwise, that is what i will continue to believe.

I highly doubt that if someone set up a CTE robot with lasers all over the place, that the robot would be able to make a ball strictly with CTE programming.
Most likely, i would expect the results i projected in my first diagram.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
It's the latter. The only real mystery over the years of "debate" about this is why CTE users seem to feel it's necessary to believe otherwise.

As for eezbank's left/right pivot distinction, that's how "thick" and "thin" shots are differentiated. "Thick" means thicker than half ball; "thin" means thinner than half ball. Any finer adjustment than that is up to the shooter to make by feel. I think Stan will try to define some further refinements on his DVD, but they can't be both accurate and simple. Look at Spidey's blog entry about "arcing to the shot circle" for an incomprehensible example.

The short answer is you're right and eezbank, like all CTE users, doesn't have a clue what he's trying to say, much less how to say it.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Eezbanks pivot distinction, like the setup center to edge, is just the basic setup in a pre-shot routine. These are akin to picking out a contact point as you are standing up behind the shot in any system. Nothing more than a starting point. Also, a translation of Spidey's comments.

As you understand this you will learn how to pivot from the left or the right to pocket ALL shots, thick or thin. Your own personal preference or choice of systems to use will dictate this movement. Left or right handers are able to choose their pivot direction. This is one of the innovative ideas Stan will put forth in his dvd. He is truly looking at things from the third level.

So, for all of the Cte prophets who understand the true meaning of Cte this post is just a rehash for you. Old news. You probably knew you could pivot from either direction to make all shots. You probably knew you could apply the pivot to other aiming systems, too. What was I thinking? :poke:

Hurry, Stan with that dvd. It's awful dark down here!

Best,
Mike
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Yeah, the Parable of the Rotating Edges - we've heard it for over ten years and it doesn't make any more sense with age.

It's really hard to believe that so many people who can walk across the street by themselves think all this Houleian nonsense means something.

pj
chgo
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It's amazing how a grown adult doesn't understand that when you move your eyes a hair, you're seeing a new edge to the OB.... esp someone who claims to understand geometry like you.
 
eezbank said:
They aren't equal. As you push the setup down table you MUST make the transition from thick to thin. If you could just understand that very basic idea I think you would understand.
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Ok, then answer the following question.
READ CAREFULLY.
We are aiming to pocket the object balls in the pocket with the chalk.

In each shot, the OB is the same exact distance from the cueball, and on the line that goes right down the middle of the table, and therefore, when aiming BEFORE the pivot, would have the exact same EDGE spot on each.

Could you please describe the thickness of each shot and the appropriate pivot that goes with each shot, right to left, left to right, thick thin, extra thin?

The first table is a reference so that you understand that shots are indeed the same distance apart from one another.

It would be helpful if your answer were stated in a way that is easy to understand that helps distinguish each individual shot.
Such as, "With the cueballA/5ball pair, the shot is thin, so you would need to use a such and such pivot, etc etc."

This is to establish if there is indeed a situation where 2 shots can have the same pivot, based on the thickness or thinness of the shot.

CueTable Help


CueTable Help


CueTable Help


CueTable Help

 
eezbank said:
as usual the only thing you bring to the discussion are insults and misinformation.
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It's sad, all things considered. This subject, AND Hal Houle, seem to bring out the very worst in some people, who are otherwise smart and intellectual. OP included.
 
Superstar,

Your initial diagram made no sense, which is why I never replied. It doesn't even look like a CTE alignment. The distance of the balls has everything to do with WHICH edge you're sighting and how you relate the CB edge to OB target.

Stan's video answers your question. Although the CTE line never changes with distance, your offset from the CTEL (perspective used to determine the correct CB center) does.

This thread is getting old and boring. Keep posting cuetable diagrams when this isn't a 2D system. Waste of time. That's why everyone MIAs when I say shoot blind ob/pocket shots. That is THE way to prove a aiming system is exact. Let's get you, PJ, and whoever else and let's all meet at SBE and shoot at blindness. If this system is such baloney, everyone will make balls but me. I think it'd be the other way around.

Dave
 

CueTable Help



Again, it's the same as my first diagram. The slight change from the rotating edge that you see gives you a different cut.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Superstar,

Your initial diagram made no sense, which is why I never replied. It doesn't even look like a CTE alignment. The distance of the balls has everything to do with WHICH edge you're sighting and how you relate the CB edge to OB target.

Stan's video answers your question. Although the CTE line never changes with distance, your offset from the CTEL (perspective used to determine the correct CB center) does.

This thread is getting old and boring. Keep posting cuetable diagrams when this isn't a 2D system. Waste of time. That's why everyone MIAs when I say shoot blind ob/pocket shots. That is THE way to prove a aiming system is exact. Let's get you, PJ, and whoever else and let's all meet at SBE and shoot at blindness. If this system is such baloney, everyone will make balls but me. I think it'd be the other way around.

Dave
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I know several people who the diagram makes perfect sense to.

But i would assume that you are oppositional because you can't explain CTE properly, or make a distinction as to how things differ, when a control situation is introduced.

That is what i am proposing in all the diagrams. A control situation.

And seriously Spidey, you're a smart enough guy. If you can't reason through what it is i am saying, then you probably have a mental block because of the nature of the topic.
It's not that hard. The distance of the balls is the same for all the shots.
If the distance of the balls is the same, and the shots are all relatively close to each other (same proximity, see my last diagrams), then it probably means that the SAME EDGE is used.
If you don't understand that, then it is obvious that you have no intent or interest to give me or anyone else an answer.

When you say Stan's video, do you mean the Stan's video that you want me to pay money for when i don't necessarily believe in it?
Is that the video you are talking about?

All things being said, i will wait till i see Stan's video transform the pool world.
When everyone in the future is using CTE, and that is the only viable system, then i might start believing.
Otherwise, i will wait for explanations that don't seem to be coming. Surely, you haven't provided me with any that address what i have presented.
 
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SUPERSTAR said:
Ok, then answer the following question.
READ CAREFULLY.
We are aiming to pocket the object balls in the pocket with the chalk.

In each shot, the OB is the same exact distance from the cueball, and on the line that goes right down the middle of the table, and therefore, when aiming BEFORE the pivot, would have the exact same EDGE spot on each.

Could you please describe the thickness of each shot and the appropriate pivot that goes with each shot, right to left, left to right, thick thin, extra thin?

The first table is a reference so that you understand that shots are indeed the same distance apart from one another.

It would be helpful if your answer were stated in a way that is easy to understand that helps distinguish each individual shot.
Such as, "With the cueballA/5ball pair, the shot is thin, so you would need to use a such and such pivot, etc etc."

This is to establish if there is indeed a situation where 2 shots can have the same pivot, based on the thickness or thinness of the shot.

CueTable Help


CueTable Help


CueTable Help


CueTable Help

Click to expand...

If he cannot understand what you are asking then you probably should give up.. I understand what you are asking for and I am not the sharpest tool in the shed!!!
 
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