Are pool schools worth the money?

....still can become better players through proper instruction. That would constitute value, I contend...

Oh, there's no question about that whatsoever: one should be able to become a "better player" through "proper instruction."

The difficult question is "what is proper instruction?" As far as I know, there are only personal assertions about that--no hard facts. What is "proper instruction" is only someone's opinion--or the opinion of a group who have gotten together to claim that their opinions are "proper."

And let's not forget, almost invariably, those who become "instructors" have failed in their own playing aspirations. If anything, they have shown themselves to have FAILED to improve their own abilities to the extent they thought they should be able to.
 
...anyone who practices setting up for a shot the exact same way following a prescribed set of steps will improve... and what those steps are is irrelevant.. its the fact that you are following set steps and training a routine to give your Brain a frame of reference so it can begin to build an orderly library of reference shots...

That sounds like the sort of advice that suggests instructors aren't necessary...
 
And let's not forget, almost invariably, those who become "instructors" have failed in their own playing aspirations. If anything, they have shown themselves to have FAILED to improve their own abilities to the extent they thought they should be able to.

Or, maybe they decided that they enjoy life more teaching instead of the endless grind of trying to get that 1/2 ball better. Or, that the realized that the payoff of becoming a pro is really no pay off at all. Maybe they decided they have more satisfaction in watching someone they taught win their first local tournament than they ever got by just making the money in a national one. I'd be willing to bet that Randy makes a better living teaching than 90% of the "pro" players do.

Brian
 
not necessary to those with perfect natural mechanics maybe... but I have never seen anyone with perfect natural mechanics from day one.

But you said all anyone needs is a CONSISTENT SETUP ROUTINE, and that it doesn't even matter WHAT THE ROUTINE IS. Who needs an instructor for that?
 
And let's not forget, almost invariably, those who become "instructors" have failed in their own playing aspirations. If anything, they have shown themselves to have FAILED to improve their own abilities to the extent they thought they should be able to.

Or some instructors might love helping others improve their pool game while traveling and meeting people.

Do you think before you post?
 
pool lessons

FYI - RandyG and his school are at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships every year.

This year our dates are May 13-22.

Randy give FREE clinics and you can actually see some of what they can do.

It is a nice benefit to all of those that attaend our events.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
 
Or, maybe they decided that they enjoy life more teaching instead of the endless grind of trying to get that 1/2 ball better. Or, that the realized that the payoff of becoming a pro is really no pay off at all. Maybe they decided they have more satisfaction in watching someone they taught win their first local tournament than they ever got by just making the money in a national one. I'd be willing to bet that Randy makes a better living teaching than 90% of the "pro" players do.

Brian

What you said does not exclude what I said. I didn't supply any reasons for their failure to continue on as players, only that they did fail to continue on.

If "Randy makes a better living teaching than 90% of the "pro" players do" then....well, it seems playing NOT AS WELL is more lucrative than PLAYING WELL when you bring "instruction" into the equation.

Does that suggest that the game of "instruction" is perhaps a bit....."topsy-turvy" as far as logic and sense is concerned?
 
But you said all anyone needs is a CONSISTENT SETUP ROUTINE, and that it doesn't even matter WHAT THE ROUTINE IS. Who needs an instructor for that?

no I didn't I mearly pointed out ONE piece of the puzzle..

good instructors come with a huge box full of all sorts of puzzle pieces.. and odds are high they have some you don't and many you had never even considered.. and they give them all to you freely..

keep telling yourself you can figure it all out on your own..

good luck with that
 
... Oh, there's no question about that whatsoever: one should be able to become a "better player" through "proper instruction."

The difficult question is "what is proper instruction?" As far as I know, there are only personal assertions about that--no hard facts. What is "proper instruction" is only someone's opinion--or the opinion of a group who have gotten together to claim that their opinions are "proper."

And let's not forget, almost invariably, those who become "instructors" have failed in their own playing aspirations. If anything, they have shown themselves to have FAILED to improve their own abilities to the extent they thought they should be able to.
Today 11:52 AM
...

The question is only as difficult as you make it. Proper instruction is to help the student learn what is best for them. I'm sure you could go to just about any school and find classes of students will generally agree on who is a 'better' teacher. It is not the materials that they teach, but the way in which they convey the material and assist in the students' learning process.

Just because somebody isn't a pro does not mean they are not a good teacher. Actually, I've found pretty much the opposite to be true. Most of the people that were able to teach me the best were the ones that were unable to put it into practice themselves quite as well. Just because you can't do something doesn't mean you don't know how. You must be a drop-out if that's how you think.

Some people just get their rocks off on helping others. I'm not exactly a follower of instructors, but I'm not going to pretend like they're useless or a waste of time. I've known plenty of people that benefited from lessons, some rapidly progressing while others slowly. Either way, they were getting better.

Oh, and if you want to argue about it.. look at the pros in pretty much every other sport. The coaches were not always pros. If the games were so easy to coach, every coach in every position would've been a pro. Because we all know professionals know what's best for themselves.
 
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I didn't propose any reasons for the "failure." Do YOU think before you post?

Basically you are the guy that likes to argue all the time. I have seen it in most of the threads you jump into.

Examples...

Me: Up
You: Down

Me: Morning
You: Night

You do this in most of the threads you jump into and have since you joined the site. Carry on being the troll you are that everyone has figured out. There is nothing wrong with giving opinions and trying to get people to think on this site but when all you do is bicker, argue, and say the opposite every time then....well trolls will be trolls.
 
If "Randy makes a better living teaching than 90% of the "pro" players do" then....well, it seems playing NOT AS WELL is more lucrative than PLAYING WELL when you bring "instruction" into the equation.

Depends on what "NOT AS WELL" is. If not as well is only being able to run 100 balls in 14.1, geee, I'll take playing "NOT AS WELL"... If "NOT AS WELL" means you can't run 3 balls in a row that is something completely different. I also don't think we're even talking about an instructor who can't run 3 balls (at least I'm not). We're talking about players with solid fundamentals, a love of the game, and in most cases pretty damn good shots themselves.

Do I honestly care if my instructor can run a 6 pack? Nope. Do I care if he has the ability to run a 1 pack? Yeah.

Also don't forget about the entire mental part of the game. Maybe the instructor isn't as good with strategy as top pro's are, maybe they choke under pressure. Does either of those two mean they can't help teach me better mechanics or better ways to practice?

Brian
 
good instructors come with a huge box full of all sorts of puzzle pieces...and odds are high they have some you don't and many you had never even considered...

I agree. My question relates to whether there ARE good instructors, and how to tell whether one is good. I'm not aware of any objective method of determining those things.

But also, I would disagree that going even to a "good" instructor (whatever that might be, or without considering if you can even find such a thing) is necessarily the best or most direct way to improvement. I think improvement MUST MOSTLY be generated by oneself.

...and they give them all to you freely...

They do? And how is it that you KNOW they have not held anything back?


keep telling yourself you can figure it all out on your own...good luck with that

As far as I'm aware, the evidence seems to show that the best players have in fact learned on their own (and I'm NOT talking about the few world's best players. I'm talking about the "best player" in your local pool hall, or the best in your city, etc.).

Let's see now...let me guess. I'd bet that Randy G (and I don't even KNOW HIM or know ANYTHING ABOUT HIM) played at or about his best game initially WITHOUT HAVING RECEIVED ANY "CERTIFIED" INSTRUCTION AT ALL. Whaddya think?
 
And let's not forget, almost invariably, those who become "instructors" have failed in their own playing aspirations. If anything, they have shown themselves to have FAILED to improve their own abilities to the extent they thought they should be able to.

I have read all of the BS you have been posting, but this one takes the cake.
I know many instructors who spend hours a day doing research, studying different ideas, learning how to TEACH, all the while NOT spending hours every day playing pool. They are PROFESSIONAL teachers, not professional players, and therefore, excel at their chosen profession.
I find your posts insulting, and, to a degree, quite ignorant.
How many great mucisians never had music lessons?
How many NFL players didn't have teachers and coaches in school?
How many golfers just picked up a club and started swinging without someone to guide them?

Why do you think that pool is so simple that anyone should be able to just pick up a cue and learn how to play well on their own? Do you really have that little respect for the game?

Steve
 
Depends on what "NOT AS WELL" is. If not as well is only being able to run 100 balls in 14.1, geee, I'll take playing "NOT AS WELL"... If "NOT AS WELL" means you can't run 3 balls in a row that is something completely different. I also don't think we're even talking about an instructor who can't run 3 balls (at least I'm not). We're talking about players with solid fundamentals, a love of the game, and in most cases pretty damn good shots themselves.

Do I honestly care if my instructor can run a 6 pack? Nope. Do I care if he has the ability to run a 1 pack? Yeah.

Also don't forget about the entire mental part of the game. Maybe the instructor isn't as good with strategy as top pro's are, maybe they choke under pressure. Does either of those two mean they can't help teach me better mechanics or better ways to practice?

Brian

No. Nothing means "they can't" help you. The question is what means they CAN help you? That question is not as easy to accurately answer as you seem to believe.
 
The difficult question is "what is proper instruction?" As far as I know, there are only personal assertions about that--no hard facts. What is "proper instruction" is only someone's opinion--or the opinion of a group who have gotten together to claim that their opinions are "proper."

Once again, you get caught up in the false belief that the only way to prove value to anything are "cold hard facts". That phrase in and of itself can't be proven, realistically. What evidence one person examines and concludes is accurate, another person can similarly deduce that it is non-sense. (I believe we've gone down this road with you a few time recently, regarding something else. Or are your arguments in this thread related to that "other" argument?)

In other words, who decides what is "fact" and what isn't?

The bottom line is that in almost any athletic endeavor, there are instructors who can and do teach people how to perform better than they would have otherwise. Or at least in a shorter time-frame than they would have if they had to figure it all out on their own.

You make a valid point in that anyone can proclaim themselves to be an "instructor". This is where testimonial evidence is helpful, because those who have been taught by said "instructor" are the only ones who can propely assess the value of their teachings.

I used to study karate, taught by an instructor. A 5th degree black belt. (There is no "formula" for that, either, only the judgement of other "instructors".) I can easily tell you that I could never have learned how to execute the things you need to do in karate without instruction. I could have watched grand masters from a distance of 5 feet for years and not have understood "how" to do what was necessary, without instruction. Similarly, for a short period of time I was considered an "instructor", because I taught kids karate at a YMCA. There is a world of difference between the instruction that I received from my sensei, and the instruction I gave my students.

How do you determine that? You cannot find any computerized formula for who is an accomplished instructor at anything. You cannot produce "cold hard facts" other than the results shown by that instructors students.

I will get some serious pool instruction at some point in my life, when time, employment and finances converge appropriately. Because I know the value of good instruction. GMT will never do so, becuase he has no cold hard facts. And he will lose out because of it.
 
No. Nothing means "they can't" help you. The question is what means they CAN help you? That question is not as easy to accurately answer as you seem to believe.

You try. They either can help you or they can't. Every person is not teachable in the same ways. I will say that pooltchr was able to teach me some things that were very useful, and that was just in things he gave me on the fly while we were playing some games together. I'm pretty sure if I took a full class from him I'd learn a lot more. I've had some lessons from another SPF instructor and I learned a lot from him. I've also had "great" players try to teach me stuff and it was COMPLETELY useless to me.

So, the only way to know if they CAN help you is to try. That is life. Life is uncertain. Sometimes you try things and they are useless, sometimes they aren't. Learn to deal with failure. But, keep tossing your hat back in the ring.

Brian
 
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