I'm sure you'll say I'm putting some kind of weird twist on what I say here, as that seems to be your modus operandi. Attack the poster instead of making points. But here's how I read your answers below. Feel free to clarify if I've misinterpreted anything.
Now, I'll provide comparable answers replacing APA with USAPL.
1) There are many non-handicapped leagues out there and they do well already. Whether that be some BCA Pool Leagues or even local pool leagues or heck even the APA has one. They focus on allowing players to play their best pool always or draw in better and better players so that their teams can win the big prize.
The USAPL has team handicaps to encourage certain levels of competitive play. They even have Advanced Level classification or Open Level classification, which allows the ability to appeal to broader ranges of players. Open Level classification might be fairly close to the APA. Whereas, the Advanced Level classification would appeal to stronger players.
What if the Open Level classification appeals to a group of stronger players? I guess I should ask what USAPL does if an Advanced Level team wants to play in an Open Level league? Is that allowed? If so, why, and if not, why not?
2) Both the APA and USAPL and others have methods of penalizing teams that exceed the team handicap limit.
The USAPL has a very different method of handling this from the APA. What I've been stressing is the benefits of the way that the USAPL handles it. From my experience, it's a very nice solution to some common issues or complaints.
I'll clarify the difference.
In the APA with the following 5 player roster of skill level and players
1. 7 Jim
2. 6 Joe
3. 4 Betty
4. 4 Billy
5. 2 Eva
23 total s/l (right at the team skill level cap)
Up until this point, Jim and Joe win mostly all of their matches, while Eva loses mostly all matches, so it's up to either Betty or Billy, average players, to win 1 of their 2 matches (50%).
Next match, Joe increases from a 6 to a 7, so now their total s/l increases to 24 which is above the APA team skill level cap. At this point, those 5 players can not all play. At least 1 of their players will have to sit out, forfeiting 1 of the 5 possible points (1/5 or 20%). In addition, the player that sits out will not be one of their weaker players, but will definitely have to be at least 1 of their 2 best shooters on the team (Jim or Joe who are both 7's now can no longer both shoot).
That team has been counting on Jim and Joe to both win (for 2 points), but now only 1 of them can play (1 point max). They have to forfeit that 1 match. Also Eva is still losing as normal. Putting them down 0-2.
So with that, their remaining players have to win ALL 100% of their matches which would be highly unlikely.
So this competitive team has 1 player go up a skill level, and now they can't ALL 5 play any longer, and with their remaining 4 they're no longer very competitive.
Now, I'll point out what I've been stressing. This is the benefit of how the USAPL handles a similar situation.
In the USAPL with the following 5 player roster of skill level and players
1. 85 Jimmy
2. 73 Joey
3. 46 Betsy
4. 55 Bill
5. 40 Eve
299 (almost right at the similar open team limit of 300).
If Jimmy and Joey similarly win almost all of their matches.
Now, if Joey goes up 3 points, putting them at 302, which is more than the 300, then...
First and foremost, all 5 of these USA Pool League players can continue to shoot! I see that as a BIG, positive of the USAPL system. Nobody is forced to sit out. They can all 5 shoot and play pool, which is exactly what they traveled there to do. Even if their whole team, went up 3 points, they can still all 5 continue to shoot! This is EXCELLENT!
The players will still have to race to their now higher skill level, which will make it more challenging. And, the opposing teams will have a little added advantage due to the bonus points awarded. So, it's positive for the team, and it's also very good for the opposing team. At this point, neither team will win by cheap forfeits. Instead, all 5 players will have to step to the table and play well to win! This is the kind of competition that I encourage!!!
Nice. That's a very long, very well thought out explanation of HOW the penalty is applied. The question was WHY. Why give the other team bonus points?
I agree that you can come up with many many scenarios where these teams in a tournament get to keep playing. So can I.
Very few teams in APA tournaments ever get to the point where they can't field 23 or less. Almost none ever get to the point where three to 15 isn't possible. This is because APA teams aren't limited to five players. Most have eight players, especially those who qualify for nationals. If their five "strongest" players can't meet 23, most likely there are several options for fielding legal combinations. So one of the stronger players has to sit out - all that means is one of the other three players gets to play - isn't that what they traveled there to do?
A group of eight players whose lowest five total more than 23 deserve the severe penalty of having to forfeit a match (two matches if their lowest four total more than 19). That's just my opinion though, and that's where tournament philosophies differ, and that's why I want to keep this discussion about league play. Why do you keep avoiding the discussion of league play?
3) This question has already been answered in the previous paragraph.
In the USAPL it simply says that it's a better competitive solution!
I'm sorry, I must have missed the part of the previous paragraph where the third question was answered. Bear with me please, I have to be misreading something. If a team can endure a higher handicap AND a penalty and still be competitive, what does that say about the team?
I have to be really really off today, because it sure looks to me like you didn't give an answer to ANY of the three questions. I can almost give you credit for #1, but that one really looks to me like you answered the question "Why does the USAPL have more than one team handicap limit?" The real question was why do they have ANY?
Note: I just picked one scenario above. There are many other scenarios which will also demonstrate the advantages of the USAPL system that I've been pointing to.
In contrast, I gave very specific answers. This was done by choice to better demonstrate the positive differences that I've been stressing.
As I stated, I don't think you answered the questions I asked at all. Maybe you did, and I'm just too dumb to understand.
Your logic is quite convoluted and even erroneous at points here.
Coming from your APA point of view, what you are saying may make sense to you, but is definitely not absolute and right...
If you really want to continue down that line of thought, then I can say more about it in the future...
This post is already quite long as it is...
This is something at which you seem to be quite adept. "You're wrong, but I'm not going to say why." That's a pretty empty statement. Look, you do it again right away...
That's because you keep consistently missing the point. Parts of your statements could be construed as flat out WRONG. As has been stated, the OP of the other thread grasped the concept immediately. Not only do you not, but you keep distorting it. Maybe it's just personal but obvious bias at this point.
Restated very simply... When exceeding the team handicap limit
In APA the same 5 players can't ALL play!
In the USA Pool League the same 5 players can ALL play!
Not to mention that if the APA team can't field 4 players under the 19 team limit, then only 3 of their players can play and must be under 15. Now 2 of their 5 players (2/5) can not play and must forfeit. In the APA, if any of the 3 remaining players lose their match, then the whole thing is over. In this case, if your first player loses, then you're done.
Whereas, in the USA Pool League the same 5 players can ALL 5 play!
A team's competitiveness does not get thrown out the window in the USAPL, simply because they slightly exceed the team limit!!!
That's just a good part of the HUGE BONUS that I am pointing out!
Restated very simply, a team's competitiveness does not get thrown out the window in the APA, simply because ONE combination of five players exceeds 23. There are 56 different five-player combinations on an 8-player roster. If one combination out of 56 can't play, try one of the other 55. After all, didn't all eight players travel to play? Only when all 56 combinations exceed 23 does the harsher penalty of a forfeit apply. Seriously, it isn't a
HUGE BONUS.
I'm not just talking theoretically or hypothetically about it... I'm talking from personal experiences!
As more and more players test out the USA Pool Leagues for themselves, then they will better understand its advantages.
Until then, they might be susceptible to your APA mindset.
And exactly how many Nationals has the USAPL conducted? I may be speaking theoretically in this thread, but a much larger pool of national championship experience with a handicapped format says it's not much different. That same experience says the USAPL really has no idea what it's getting itself into with certain policies. Is that what you mean by APA mindset? Perhaps after USAPL has significant experience, we can compare the relative benefits to teams of the different policies. Until then, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I completely understand what you're "explaining" here. A USAPL team can exceed the team handicap limit and is still allowed to play. My contention is that said team will eventually become non-competitive, and it's only a matter of time. You contend that allowing a team to exceed the handicap limit is a good thing, and I contend that experience will show that policy to be short-sighted. Only time will tell, so let's give it time.
This is my final reply to you on this subject. It is getting increasingly more difficult to remain civil. Baseless assertions are a pet peeve of mine.
It allows for an entirely different approach to the table. If/when you win one game, I have the luxury of still being a little bit more aggressive with my shot selection without having to worry about not seeing the table again. Granted you could make me pay for it (aka get out and then 8 on break) but I like my chances a little better with the 2 game spot vs 3...
