APA skill level question

[SKJoss72]

Ok my thoughts about the APA

I have played in it since 99 and for the most part enjoy it(just wish I could make it every week) but there has to be a few things fixed about the system. I was moved to a 7 even though I can barely see anymore. why? who knows I will take it as a compliment. but It suck alot of ass playing a 4 who last week beat me 2 of the 3 games we played. I only missed 2 balls (I am serious) the guy made i wanna say 6 bank shots in the 2 games he won. the one game he didn't shoot. i ran them after he broke.

I wasn't really even mad about it, because he played well, and he was a new player, so i figured He'll go up>>>> and I can get my revenge when he gets a legit ranking, well I checked his ranking online after the scores were updated and nothing, where is the problem here??? he won 2 games in 4 innings against a 7 usually that means going up.


secondly I believe that the higher level players (5,6,7) are double handicapped because of the any pocket goes rule, think about it.. you have a race say 3 to 5 whick is a handicap designed to make lesser players have a chance, then you allow slop. that is a handicap to me and I am sure others as well. if they took that rule out of the APA, I am sure you'd hear alot less *****ing

I liked the BCA alot better but in our area we only play 4 people a night, so I wasn't getting to shoot as much as the 4's and 5's would

 

[Shaky1]

OK, what ever. So, how long you been playing leagues. Because sandbagging has been a problem in leagues since they began. But, I guess no one has thought to try what you listed.

Actually, I'm not sure you understand. They don't mind losing, until of course when it really matters. Most of the sandbaggers I know have a winning percentage probably less than 50%. They usually like to play legit 2s or 3s and drag the inning out. Or, play strong 5s or 6s and lose horribly.

Then when you meet in citywide, the opposing team has an Ace in hole named Mr. Sandbagger. You think your team has a guaranty win with your strong 6 or 7, but guess what the opposing team counters with Mr. Sandbagger who can string racks when he wants to. Or, your up against total limit and have to play a 3, guess who your opposing team counters with?

Your idea of causing Mr. Sandbagger to go up is somewhat based on the fact Mr. Sandbagger is trying to win every match. That thought concept is kind of naive.

Again, I don't have anything against leagues or even sandbagger. Leagues are good for pool, but I assure you Kid, you can not cause a sandbagger to go up.

1st the team needs to win just to get into the playoffs. 2nd is you need to win in your Division area, then you need to win in Vegas. When does the sandbagger start to win?
If a player is suspected of sandbagging, the whole team can be disqualified. You don't think this will be found out?
Or does he just keep losing? Also, don't assume my age. You are probably wrong.

 

[Dannydizzan]

APA masters is the nuts. Just get up and play. No skill levels, no meticulous records. I only play the regular for the entertainment.

 

[Gmanpoke]

1st the team needs to win just to get into the playoffs. 2nd is you need to win in your Division area, then you need to win in Vegas. When does the sandbagger start to win?
If a player is suspected of sandbagging, the whole team can be disqualified. You don't think this will be found out?
Or does he just keep losing? Also, don't assume my age. You are probably wrong.

Let see if I can make this as simple as possible. They win when the team needs them to win.

Kid, if you want to believe there are no sandbagger in the APA and when you come up against one you can cause them to go up in ratings, knock yourself out. I just think you are a little naive. But, hey, there are worse things in life than being naive.

 

[justadub]

secondly I believe that the higher level players (5,6,7) are double handicapped because of the any pocket goes rule, think about it..

Wait just a minute!

Higher level players, including SL5's?????

You have definitely not played this SL5... :yikes::shakehead:
:wave2:

 

[cookie man]

OK, what ever. So, how long you been playing leagues. Because sandbagging has been a problem in leagues since they began. But, I guess no one has thought to try what you listed.

Actually, I'm not sure you understand. They don't mind losing, until of course when it really matters. Most of the sandbaggers I know have a winning percentage probably less than 50%. They usually like to play legit 2s or 3s and drag the inning out. Or, play strong 5s or 6s and lose horribly.

Then when you meet in citywide, the opposing team has an Ace in hole named Mr. Sandbagger. You think your team has a guaranty win with your strong 6 or 7, but guess what the opposing team counters with Mr. Sandbagger who can string racks when he wants to. Or, your up against total limit and have to play a 3, guess who your opposing team counters with?

Your idea of causing Mr. Sandbagger to go up is somewhat based on the fact Mr. Sandbagger is trying to win every match. That thought concept is kind of naive.

Again, I don't have anything against leagues or even sandbagger. Leagues are good for pool, but I assure you Kid, you can not cause a sandbagger to go up.

Your branding the whole apa because you have a piss poor LO.

 

[Shaky1]

Let see if I can make this as simple as possible. They win when the team needs them to win.

Kid, if you want to believe there are no sandbagger in the APA and when you come up against one you can cause them to go up in ratings, knock yourself out. I just think you are a little naive. But, hey, there are worse things in life than being naive.

Kid? So, just how old are you. old man? I'm 57. Playing since I was 5

 

[Gmanpoke]

Kid? So, just how old are you. old man? I'm 57. Playing since I was 5

Look Kid, I know it sucks finding out this old world is not all about butterflies and cupcakes. People lie, cheat, steal, and good guys don't always win.

Don't let stuff get to you so much. Life will be a whole lot more enjoyable. I call a lot of people kid, has nothing to do with their age. Personally, I don't care how old you are, you have a naive, child like outlook, believing you can out any sandbagger you come up against.

Good luck with your league.

 

[Gmanpoke]

Your branding the whole apa because you have a piss poor LO.

First, I don't have an LO. I don't play in any leagues any more. And, I have explained why, it has nothing to do with sandbaggers, cheats, or poor LOs.

Second, I've said many times, APA and leagues in general are good for pool. I would hate to think where pool would be without them.

Sorry, my discussion is turning several people's APA world upside down. But, anytime there is something to be gained, someone will work the angles. Pool is probably worse than most disciplines because deception is looked up to and rewarded.

A very smart man told me once "it only takes two thing to commit fraud, incentive and opportunity". You would be surprised how little incentive it actually takes. I've seen bank tellers take $5 just to buy lunch. These are kids who were brought up in wholesome, Christen middle class environments.

 

[OneIron]

1st the team needs to win just to get into the playoffs. 2nd is you need to win in your Division area, then you need to win in Vegas. When does the sandbagger start to win?
If a player is suspected of sandbagging, the whole team can be disqualified. You don't think this will be found out?
Or does he just keep losing? Also, don't assume my age. You are probably wrong.

How many sandbagging teams have been disqualified in Vegas after eliminating honest teams in the Regionals? The fact that they are disqualified in Vegas is little comfort to the guys who were cheated along the way.

I played APA for years and really liked the format. But you better believe that sandbagging is rampant. And unfortunately, it works.

 

[Group Therapy]

Sandbaggers hometown

I assumed it was this way everywhere, but maybe not. There are some "expert" sandbaggers in OK. I know of at least one team that was DQ last year in Vegas. Seems to happen often to a team from here. As long as there is an angle, somebody will be trying to work it.

 

[nine_ball6970]

So the Equalizer System wouldn't "equalize" in this case?

The 23 rule is what makes the Equalizer System work for the most part. The example about five 7s playing together is accurate. 7 is the highest skill level on paper, but there are many 7s who would be 8s or higher if there wasn't a ceiling for skill levels. So you could put together a team of five 7s which would win everything possible if teams weren't limited to the 23 rule. If lower skill level players have the winning percentages of the better 7s then they will move to a higher skill level. No system is perfect. I hear about just as much sandbagging in the local BCA league as APA.

 

[cfrandy]

The 23 rule is what makes the Equalizer System work for the most part. The example about five 7s playing together is accurate. 7 is the highest skill level on paper, but there are many 7s who would be 8s or higher if there wasn't a ceiling for skill levels. So you could put together a team of five 7s which would win everything possible if teams weren't limited to the 23 rule. If lower skill level players have the winning percentages of the better 7s then they will move to a higher skill level. No system is perfect. I hear about just as much sandbagging in the local BCA league as APA.

On the contrary, if the Equalizer sytem worked...there would not be a 23-Rule. Fact is, the 23-rule ENCOURAGES sandbagging! Nobody wants their SL to go up just before playoffs, so they sandbag! It is true, no system is perfect! However the APA is bottom of the barrel! APA is all about making money for the LO...and they make a lot!

 

[justadub]

On the contrary, if the Equalizer sytem worked...there would not be a 23-Rule. Fact is, the 23-rule ENCOURAGES sandbagging! Nobody wants their SL to go up just before playoffs, so they sandbag! It is true, no system is perfect! However the APA is bottom of the barrel! APA is all about making money for the LO...and they make a lot!

So since you have all the answers, what would you suggest? No 23 rule, then what? 25? 27? No limit at all?

well, then you'd get your wish, the APA would fold, because when you let the best players all play together, then the beginners (like me) wouldn't stand a chance. Why would a a beginner want to come into a league to get his brains bashed in, week after week? With no reasonable chance of that changing?

In our APA division, with no 23 rule, there would be 2 or 3 teams that could compete against each other, if you grouped all of the better players together. Then there would be another 3-4 teams that could still play and maybe pull off a match or two, because of the handicap. Then there are the rest of us. Instead of 14 teams, all having a decent chance of competing against each other.

Stop worrying about how much money APA LO's make. Most of us that play APA enjoy it, and aren't worried about the LO's income. Why are you?

 

[cfrandy]

So since you have all the answers, what would you suggest? No 23 rule, then what? 25? 27? No limit at all?

well, then you'd get your wish, the APA would fold, because when you let the best players all play together, then the beginners (like me) wouldn't stand a chance. Why would a a beginner want to come into a league to get his brains bashed in, week after week? With no reasonable chance of that changing?

In our APA division, with no 23 rule, there would be 2 or 3 teams that could compete against each other, if you grouped all of the better players together. Then there would be another 3-4 teams that could still play and maybe pull off a match or two, because of the handicap. Then there are the rest of us. Instead of 14 teams, all having a decent chance of competing against each other.

Stop worrying about how much money APA LO's make. Most of us that play APA enjoy it, and aren't worried about the LO's income. Why are you?

First of all, you have a list of known players whose handicap is permanent! They can never go down! Then you penalize a team (in points), say 1 point for each 6, 2 points for each 7 (skill levels should be increased to 10). You list the players on the scoresheet according to lowest skill level 1st to the highest skill level. Then each player plays one game at a time, the lower SL players will be playing each other while the highest skill SL players will be playing against the higher SL players on the other team. Sandbagging mostly occurs in APA when a higher SL player is playing against a lower SL player! Scores are kept according to points won! The winning player gets 10 points, the loser gets ball pocketed. This discourages sandbagging...everybody is trying to pocket balls (hmmmm, pocket billiards) because they are worth points, instead of increasing their innings (because innings don't mean diddly...except in APA).
Say for example, you and I play...I'm a 10 and your a 6! I can't just win the match to beat you! If you pocket 7 balls your score is an 11, if there are more than 2 tens on my team, you need to pocket only 6 balls to win.
In this fashion, you play as a TEAM not just as individuals.
If this format sounds familiar, it is because this is VNEA's format...and it works! We actually have a team in our division that has all tens on their team. They are in 6th place out of 20 teams!
I also believe that the APA system is flawed because who wants to wait 2 hours before it's their turn to play? Alternating players for each game (round robin) allows everyone to play within a reasonable amount of time. It also makes sense and prevents sandbagging when the roster of players is made BEFORE the start of the 1st game! Then everyone knows whose playing who and the captain doesn't get a last minute opportunity to put his 5 or 6 against a 2 or 3 just for the purpose of sandbagging!

 

[bflgvs]

Suggestions definitely have a BCA overtone to them. All that we have here are 2 league nights; on Monday it's BCA and on Tuesday it's County (Beer League). I only play on Monday nights, one night is more than enough for me. The team I play on consistently finishes in second place. We have 4 9's and 1 8 on our team and we always have to give up points to our opponents. The way the system is setup appears to promote more team play. No sandbagging here, we have to play our best to come out on top.

Gerry S

 

[Bluey2King]

There is no reason to possibly have your best, highest SL player not be allowed to participate in Vegas.
:

TAP..TAP..TAP..!!....x2

 

[justadub]

First of all, you have a list of known players whose handicap is permanent! They can never go down! Then you penalize a team (in points), say 1 point for each 6, 2 points for each 7 (skill levels should be increased to 10). You list the players on the scoresheet according to lowest skill level 1st to the highest skill level. Then each player plays one game at a time, the lower SL players will be playing each other while the highest skill SL players will be playing against the higher SL players on the other team. Sandbagging mostly occurs in APA when a higher SL player is playing against a lower SL player! Scores are kept according to points won! The winning player gets 10 points, the loser gets ball pocketed. This discourages sandbagging...everybody is trying to pocket balls (hmmmm, pocket billiards) because they are worth points, instead of increasing their innings (because innings don't mean diddly...except in APA).
Say for example, you and I play...I'm a 10 and your a 6! I can't just win the match to beat you! If you pocket 7 balls your score is an 11, if there are more than 2 tens on my team, you need to pocket only 6 balls to win.
In this fashion, you play as a TEAM not just as individuals.
If this format sounds familiar, it is because this is VNEA's format...and it works! We actually have a team in our division that has all tens on their team. They are in 6th place out of 20 teams!
I also believe that the APA system is flawed because who wants to wait 2 hours before it's their turn to play? Alternating players for each game (round robin) allows everyone to play within a reasonable amount of time. It also makes sense and prevents sandbagging when the roster of players is made BEFORE the start of the 1st game! Then everyone knows whose playing who and the captain doesn't get a last minute opportunity to put his 5 or 6 against a 2 or 3 just for the purpose of sandbagging!

I'll grant you, the format sounds interesting, if only on one quick read while goofing off at work. And that's cool, glad you have something you like, and works for you. If your league was offered here, I'm sure i'd look into it.

Apa works fine for me. It is here. I have fun, most everyone here does. I do not see any rampant sandbagging. It probably happens, but not to the degree I see people here crying about. I can honestly say that everyone in our division is pretty much where they ought to be, or within one skill level of it. (Many of us play socially outside of league. We all know each other pretty well.). That can happen with any mathematical formula, with someone having a bad few weeks, or just plain dumb luck.

I complain lately about my skill level vs some other guys I know that play my speed, but are currently one level lower. But I do that good-naturedly, cuz I know its the computer doing it.

Cheaters always get caught, at some point. And if cheating at league is that important to these folks, its even more rewarding to beat them. On the table.

Enjoy your league. Stop wasting so much time and energy tearing mine down.

 

[lorider]

First of all, you have a list of known players whose handicap is permanent! They can never go down! Then you penalize a team (in points), say 1 point for each 6, 2 points for each 7 (skill levels should be increased to 10). You list the players on the scoresheet according to lowest skill level 1st to the highest skill level. Then each player plays one game at a time, the lower SL players will be playing each other while the highest skill SL players will be playing against the higher SL players on the other team. Sandbagging mostly occurs in APA when a higher SL player is playing against a lower SL player! Scores are kept according to points won! The winning player gets 10 points, the loser gets ball pocketed. This discourages sandbagging...everybody is trying to pocket balls (hmmmm, pocket billiards) because they are worth points, instead of increasing their innings (because innings don't mean diddly...except in APA).
Say for example, you and I play...I'm a 10 and your a 6! I can't just win the match to beat you! If you pocket 7 balls your score is an 11, if there are more than 2 tens on my team, you need to pocket only 6 balls to win.
In this fashion, you play as a TEAM not just as individuals.
If this format sounds familiar, it is because this is VNEA's format...and it works! We actually have a team in our division that has all tens on their team. They are in 6th place out of 20 teams!
I also believe that the APA system is flawed because who wants to wait 2 hours before it's their turn to play? Alternating players for each game (round robin) allows everyone to play within a reasonable amount of time. It also makes sense and prevents sandbagging when the roster of players is made BEFORE the start of the 1st game! Then everyone knows whose playing who and the captain doesn't get a last minute opportunity to put his 5 or 6 against a 2 or 3 just for the purpose of sandbagging!

i have never played vnea but as another poster said it sounds a lot like bcapl which i have played.

before i go any farther let me state this... i dont have a problem playing any league because of the simple fact i enjoy playing pool regardless of the format.

i do prefer playing apa or napa over bcapl.

my pros and cons of each league.

apa
i dont like slop or the points based 9 ball. i hardly ever make a slop shot, if i miss a shot i just miss it , i dont hit the ball hard enough to go 5 rails and fall into one of the 6 available pockets.
i do like the laid back atmosphere of the 3 divisions i play in. i love the match up format.

napa league
i love every thing about it. nuff said

bcapl.
dont like the points based system. the game should be about who wins the match, not which team knocked the most balls in.

is being legal to hit your opponents ball 1st knocking your ball in that is hanging in the pocket winning the match for your team considered real pool ? it is not allowed in any other league i know of, why should it be allowed in a league that considers itself made for real poolplayers ?

 

[Shaky1]

I'll grant you, the format sounds interesting, if only on one quick read while goofing off at work. And that's cool, glad you have something you like, and works for you. If your league was offered here, I'm sure i'd look into it.

Apa works fine for me. It is here. I have fun, most everyone here does. I do not see any rampant sandbagging. It probably happens, but not to the degree I see people here crying about. I can honestly say that everyone in our division is pretty much where they ought to be, or within one skill level of it. (Many of us play socially outside of league. We all know each other pretty well.). That can happen with any mathematical formula, with someone having a bad few weeks, or just plain dumb luck.

I complain lately about my skill level vs some other guys I know that play my speed, but are currently one level lower. But I do that good-naturedly, cuz I know its the computer doing it.

Cheaters always get caught, at some point. And if cheating at league is that important to these folks, its even more rewarding to beat them. On the table.

Enjoy your league. Stop wasting so much time and energy tearing mine down.

TRUTH! Thank You!