How do you think pool can be saved across the USA?

wontonny

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We have to follow the suit of the other sports that have boomed and become large industries.

Golf
- Similar to pool in some respects.
- Have to go to a specific place to play it.
- Cost. I've never been golfing myself, it seems like an expensive sport but people generally make a day (or large chunk) out of it.
- Golf courses enforce a strict dress code.
- Country clubs have other things to do there other than the golf, so the rest of the family can do something while there. Resorts often have a golf course on them along with a spa, fine dining, etc.
- Use of technology. People are using state of the art computer software to be able to scientifically examine every nuance of their stroke. This needs to happen with pool. It has to change from being viewed as a game where you just push balls around on a table to being a game viewed as physically demanding in terms of strict body mechanics and motion.
- The production value when it's televised is tremendous. Use of high end camera equipment, use of depth of field (where subject is in focus and background is blurry [people eat f-ing eat that S up]), etc. Also much like pool, people are watching professional tournaments to watch their favorite players play in hopes of learning things about their form, body mechanics, how they played shots, etc. When you watch golf on TV, you get to see the player’s entire stroke form. I don't want to watch pool on TV to see a close-up of the players face.
- Most importantly, the courses are made harder when there's a professional tournament. This needs to happen with pool. Playing on 10' tables is a start, but I personally would like to see it moved to a 12' with snooker (or appreciably tougher) pockets. This is what I feel creates the excitement of snooker, you never know when the player is going to miss.
- The game is the same for NOVICES (not amateurs), and professionals alike. Everyone is trying to get the lowest score. In pool, the professional game is mostly 9/10 ball, where novices are only accustomed to 8 ball. At my school we've had a couple pool tournaments where the announcement was emailed school-wide. The roster filled up in 30 minutes. People showed up expecting to play 8 ball and much to their surprise it was a 9 ball tournament. Half the people playing didn't even know what 9 ball was.
- Charity tournaments. The public needs to know that golfers aren't expressionless, soulless, golfing machines that take their prize money and run. This could be pool's way to get bigger name, and even non-pool related sponsors, to sponsor their events. With bigger sponsors, comes bigger advertising. Since these companies are sponsoring you for advertising, they want to make sure this event is seen by as many people as possible.
- Women's events focus on the player’s skill, not looks.

Bowling
- Have to go to a specific place to play it.
- These places often have deals on certain nights of the week where lane time can be had for very cheap.
- Televised sport with good camera work and production value. Again, showing the players form and mechanics as opposed to what their facial expression is.
- Bowling alleys are brightly lit and clean establishments where you can take your entire family out for fun.

Snooker
- One of the only successful cue sports.
- Big production value, great use of camera equipment.
- Snooker clubs are similar to golf country clubs where you must be a member to go and play, I feel it brings a sense of exclusivity, positive elitism, and camaraderie.
- Big events with big sponsors.

There are many areas that are mentioned here where pool is lacking. Unfortunately, a pool hall is portrayed in movies and media as a dark, dingy, seedy establishment where only the lower classes of society go to drink, smoke, and gamble their problems away. Going along with the perception of pool as an activity filled with hustlers and gamblers, we need to have televised charity events that improve the public’s perception of pool. When professional pool is actually aired on TV, it’s done by incompetent cameramen and technical directors who don’t seem to know which camera to use to show the true beauty of pool. Snooker and European production crews (Mosconi Cup) on the other hand seem to know how to do this quite well. They use cameras mounted on wheeled TRIPODS with telephoto lenses, and have FANTASTICALLY lit arenas. These not only stay out of the player’s way and field of view, it accentuates the shallow depth of field effect which makes for an enjoyable viewing experience. I watched one of the men’s events of the Mohegan Sun tournament where Mika was down on a shot, the camera man tried to get a “cool” shot of the ball going into the pocket with his WIDE ANGLE lens. The wide angle lens forced him to get nearly a foot away from the pocket with his camera, where then Mika stood up and said to the camera man, “Come on man, I can’t play this shot with you standing right there”. The shot the camera man had before was terrible anyway, and very shaky. I also firmly believe (for now) the professional game needs to be 8 ball. For the reasons I stated above. A large majority of the non-pool playing public at least know how 8 ball is played. After more events are aired on TV, we can introduce them to the many other games that can be played on a pool table.

When casual players do end up at a pool hall, they are met with the steep prices of table time. Around my area, there are seldom deals on table time, but when there is the place is packed. The only real pool hall never has deals during prime hours on table time. It’s only in the mornings on Mon-Thurs, when people are at work. I’ve never even HEARD of a single place that offers frequent players perks or memberships. I feel like this would spark interest in people to play more often if they’re met with the incentive of cheaper table time. With the economy the way it is, young adults especially are looking to go out and do a group activity that won't break the bank. This is why barboxes are so popular. The seemly cheap cost for a game of pool attracts people to play. A bar I frequent has a constant line of quarters on the table. I have several groups of friends that have a specific night of the week that's dedicated to bowling, since that's when the bowling alley offers a deal. The argument of the room-owner trying to make a living as well comes up. Hopefully the larger volume of patrons will help with that. I'm no room owner, but it seems that bowling alleys even have a higher operating cost than pool halls do. They easily consume larger amounts of electricity with the pin resetting machines as well as the ball returns. A lot of high end bowling alleys are even popping up all over the place with a very posh, upscale type atmosphere where dress code is enforced.

This was sorta quickly thrown together and I'm getting tired of writing but I'll probably go back and revise some things and add stuff.
 
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justnum

Billiards Improvement Research Projects Associate
Silver Member
Pool promoters aren't thinking about saving pool. Instead super crazy fans are trying to figure it out.

The problem is the pool industry. From the exclusive trade organizations to the self-serving pool promoter, few of the people that are involved in the industry are concerned with the current state of affairs for the long term.
 

cueandcushion

Cue & Cushion_STL_MO
Silver Member
Pool became obsessed with catering to low income masses; then when discretionary income collapsed so did the market. Pool will have to abandon price based business plans and concentrate on higher quality. This will alienate about 90% of their core market. Should only take about 50 years to fix it. :rolleyes:

If pool was $20.00/hour per person..but it would save the sport and industry....how many on here would support it? Im guessing not a lot. Most people want $1.00 bar box games and $5/hour big table prices....but that will not support high rents and high quality tables and cloth and balls etc that good players demand.
According to the CPI calculator I should be charging about $7.00 an hour per person to have the same rate as I did in 1978 when we charged $2.00/hour . We currently have half our rates at $1.80/hour and half at $3.60. And still there is not the demand. I have talked with pool room owners across the country for YEARS, at BCA conventions, at pool tournaments, and through the internet; consensus is that pool almost NEVER makes money. Alcohol, Food, Retail sales, Repair services...THOSE make money. If you really want POOL to be given a chance; then POOL needs to make MONEY.
 
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thintowin

thin2win
Silver Member
WSOP took off because a guy that only played weekend games won the biggest and most prestigous poker tourny in the world. A guy that only plays pool on the weekends will never win the Derby or any large tourny. The analogy doesn't work.

+ 1 for TV coverage!
Poker exploded when they televised the WSOP (with cameras showing the cards)
 

thintowin

thin2win
Silver Member
the end of rack boys and girls hurt poolroom owners in their quest to make money on pool. Yhay's my opinion.

I have talked with pool room owners across the country for YEARS, at BCA conventions, at pool tournaments, and through the internet; consensus is that pool almost NEVER makes money. Alcohol, Food, Retail sales, Repair services...THOSE make money. If you really want POOL to be given a chance; then POOL needs to make MONEY.[/QUOTE]
 

Wags

2 pocket-one pocket table
Silver Member
My thoughts - random

1. Pool Rooms are the life blood of pool. Without rooms there is no place to even learn to play. There are no better players teaching the "I want to learn players". Youngsters have no place to go to get enticed. Without rooms, the game is truly dead. There will be no future players.

2. Rooms need a feeder system. That means they need to put the work in on creating a Junior league. Just where do rooms think the replacement players/new players are coming from? All the major sports have a direct or indirect feeder system. How many of us played little league or junior bowling or something organized thru the schools? VNEA and BEF do a good job giving those juniors something to shoot for, but are not much help to the room owner starting a junior league.

3. The pool industry seems to work against the pool room being successful.
  • Before the internet, cuemakers sold most of their wares through the pool room. No so much anymore. That is depriving the pool room of needed income to keep the doors open. I picked on the cuemakers but this happens with other products as well. Buyers are at fault as well for not supporting their room.
  • Except for some rooms in the country that hold extraordinary weekend events, there are no events of consequence held in pool rooms. Even TAR no longer holds matches in a room. Those events used to draw local players and give them a push to get better. Not so anymore, not enough visibility. Just ask your average league player who Alex Pagulayan is. Fargo Billliards just held an event in which SVB played and won. I guarantee you their players have new life and commitment to the game.

4. Large event promoters (a few exceptions) insist on playing anything but 8-ball. Yet, 8-ball is the most known game in the world. Rules may be different but the concept is the same. The majority of players can't relate to the other games. Not playing 8-ball loses a built in league audience. Most 8-ball players can understand a rack run and can be impressed when a package is put together. They can't in the other games because they don't understand them. Kind of like a rotation player playing one hole.

5. Major tournaments no longer have exclusivity. Anyone with an entry fee can enter and play. A player no longer has to earn his way into the tournaments. At least the WPBA did a very good job of that and probably a reason for their longevity. Exclusive tournaments are special. I remember when our state VNEA was limited and each league was allowed only so many entrants for team and singles based on the size of the local league. Getting to the state tourney meant that you had to take 1st or 2nd in team or be in the top 12 in singles. It was special just to get to go, much less if you happened to get in the money. I think getting to Vegas in the APA is still along the same lines. I hear APA players talk about getting the ride to Vegas all the time. That is good.

I have more but this is enough for one post. Maybe I'll do more later.
 

offaxis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I mentioned in a previous post about diversifying and adding other activities besides the actual pool tables. I wonder if a hit movie could generate some hype.
 

King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
pool makes money?

Thin Townie said "pool almost NEVER makes money. Alcohol, Food, Retail sales, Repair services...THOSE make money"

You have to have people in your place for the things above to be sold.., if people come in to play, they can be sold. APA,BCA and anything else to get them in, but what gets them back and playing...., APA has them thinking they can win and having fun.

I dont play APA, but I see the result, more people
 

ghost ball

justnum survivor
Silver Member
Here's a vodka inspired thought:thumbup:; let the chinese dominate pool (it's happening anyways believe it or not), china influences the olympic committee to include pool as an event (they can do it, unlike the US which has failed to make pool an olympic event), and voila, Americans will take interest in the game and American players shall rise to the occassion to bring home the gold (like we always have!). :thumbup:

This, of course, turns the American gold medalist into a hero making a tidy sum in Wheaties like endorsements. :thumbup:

Pool is saved in the US. :thumbup:

more vodka...:thumbup:

ghost ball, out like Earl Strickland in a library.

p.s. Phillipines have a good chance of medaling too! kaba..
 

BarneyCalip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
justnum, you have got to be kidding !!!!!

You want promoters to do what Mika and Charlie Williams did at the SBE.
Mika went to another tournament and Charlie went to see his two girls play.
They chopped and decided not to play the 14.1 finals.

Fury Cues a sponsor was outraged and said so on this forum.
I don't think they are going to sponsor the event next year.
The fans were also upset.
I wonder how Allen Hopkins feel being stabbed in the back by ABP Pro's.

What a great example Charlie Williams and ABP Pro's showed us.
 

Lumocolor

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You probably need Tom Cruise to come back and maybe not save, but at least revive interest for the casual people, like Paul newman did in the 60's and 80's.

Poker was a niche thing too until Matt Damon and Rounders hit the big screen and the WSOP main event went from 500 players to nearly 10,000 the year after the movie came out. I'm no statistician but i think poker has taken a steep dip in interest from its peak in the last few years too, but the government going after all the US online poker sites probably didn't help.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
justnum, you have got to be kidding !!!!!

You want promoters to do what Mika and Charlie Williams did at the SBE.
Mika went to another tournament and Charlie went to see his two girls play.
They chopped and decided not to play the 14.1 finals.

Fury Cues a sponsor was outraged and said so on this forum.
I don't think they are going to sponsor the event next year.
The fans were also upset.
I wonder how Allen Hopkins feel being stabbed in the back by ABP Pro's.

What a great example Charlie Williams and ABP Pro's showed us.

I ran a lot of smaller tournaments in the 80's....
..if they didn't want to play the finals, they got no money.
I would tell them that the next tournament would have their money added.
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
Legalize the cherry masters nationwide and the pool rooms may prosper again... I know when the City put the kibosh on them here we lost 2 rooms and several others were hurting to keep the doors open..... Several years later we have no rooms to really speak of.... One sportsbar... One bar table dive and the old action room has barely got the doors open and is in such disrepair that it's starting to be mostly tumbleweeds

Mouses Ear still open?
 

speedy5963

speedy5963
Silver Member
Just my opinion

I know variables vary from area to area but in the local room I play most my pool in it seems like the majority of regular tournament players don't always give much support. You have your general public but a lot of the people who show up for the weekly tournaments won't play until free practice starts, if the get knocked out they either hang out and watch or leave, will not play. I hear a lot of people that complain about table time but then complain when the pool hall is closing? I enjoy pool, so I pay time and try to make the best out of my time playing you know. I was playing some 20 and 40 dollar sets with a guy a few weeks ago who was yacking at me about where I was leaving my break stick because it was taking too long to walk over and switch cues and it was costing him money, lol...he should have been more concerned with the sets than the table time but point being, its crazy! Support your local pool halls and get other to do the same.
 

berlowmj2

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
reducing overhead

I play in a real dump with a wretched parking lot tucked away in a rural area.

I'm sure the cost of the facility is minimal, however the 9' tables are well maintained & the place is always crowded with young serious players.

They serve a large variety of beers & soft drinks with no food & remain open until 3am.

Advertising appears to be by word of mouth.
 

offaxis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It helps to get paying customers. I have only been to a few pool halls and only been playing pool for a little bit. Ive noticed some of these halls have mostly older retired types just hanging around since they have no other place to be i presume. They buy a cup of coffee and basically just sit there for hours on end. I do see some of them play but the majority at least to me just seem to be sitting around just chilling. Correct me if im wrong but this is something i have observed.
 

Hungarian

C'mon, man!
Silver Member
It helps to get paying customers. I have only been to a few pool halls and only been playing pool for a little bit. Ive noticed some of these halls have mostly older retired types just hanging around since they have no other place to be i presume. They buy a cup of coffee and basically just sit there for hours on end. I do see some of them play but the majority at least to me just seem to be sitting around just chilling. Correct me if im wrong but this is something i have observed.

No, you are right, you are absolutely right. We take care of our old legends. And this model worked for the last 110 years. But for this to work we need young people gettting involved. So for every old fart loafing around we need two or three young people racking up hours and hours of table time and slamming jagerbombs. But there hasn't been a boom in pool since the color of money. And it also seams that todays younger generation is too cool for pool. I really don't like the young people of today. They are rude little jerks.
 

tom mcgonagle

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We need to find a way to get the attention of mainstream America.

It doesn't really matter how it happens.

We also need the right person or person to represent the game in the right fashion.

It would be nice to have a new movie. I'm working on that personally. My book, Right On Cue, is currently being converted into a screenplay.

There are other ways. I think a reality show that followed the lives of several top players could be interesting. If a man or woman could crack a show like, Dancing With The Stars or America's Got Talent this could be a huge break-through. If a young player could also sing and get on American Idol that would really get major exposure to the game.

Just the way I think.


__________________________________________

http://tommcgonaglerightoncue.com
 

Bambu

Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
justnum, you have got to be kidding !!!!!

You want promoters to do what Mika and Charlie Williams did at the SBE.
Mika went to another tournament and Charlie went to see his two girls play.
They chopped and decided not to play the 14.1 finals.

Fury Cues a sponsor was outraged and said so on this forum.
I don't think they are going to sponsor the event next year.
The fans were also upset.
I wonder how Allen Hopkins feel being stabbed in the back by ABP Pro's.

What a great example Charlie Williams and ABP Pro's showed us.


I dunno about Charlie, but Mika was at the SBE at least for awhile. I saw him playing Souquet on a big table, using a helmet cam.

As for saving pool, we are at the mercy of the powers that be. When they decide pool should be more popular, it shall be. Who is "they"? The same people who decide what colors are fashionable to wear this spring. Instead of pool. they stuck us with reality TV, poker, and Friday the 13th, part 87 in 3D.
 

theeviltwin69

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
justnum, you have got to be kidding !!!!!

You want promoters to do what Mika and Charlie Williams did at the SBE.
Mika went to another tournament and Charlie went to see his two girls play.
They chopped and decided not to play the 14.1 finals.

Fury Cues a sponsor was outraged and said so on this forum.
I don't think they are going to sponsor the event next year.
The fans were also upset.
I wonder how Allen Hopkins feel being stabbed in the back by ABP Pro's.

What a great example Charlie Williams and ABP Pro's showed us.

This is NOT the first time this happened! It's been done before @ big events by these SO CALLED PROFESSIONALS.
What a joke!These are OUR Ambassadors to the sport.Great job guys you really did a great job of representing pool.

These are the reasons Big sponsors wont back the men!
Does this ever happen with the Women?No,why,They have CLASS plain and simple.That's why they have Big Sponsors!

And I blame the promoter's also for letting it happen time and time again!

When I was a kid I used to watch Mosconi,Minasota Fats,Mizzerack etc,etc,play on WIDE WORLD of SPORTS.

Wide World of Sports! Why,because these guys where PROFESSIONALS,they had CLASS and HEART!They would not let themselves be EMBARRASSED to walk away from a challenge like TWO LOSERS

Not like today,these guys have NO sense of professionalism,NO class,and NO heart.
 
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