John Schmidt's and Corey Deuel's comments on aiming systems

[duckie]

At a recent TAR podcast, two US Open champions expressed some interesting viewpoints about aiming. The podcast link can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8KsVm9ePlk&feature=related and the comments on aiming systems goes from 24:15 - 29:15 .

BTW, John Schmidt just won the Predator World 14.1 tournament so perhaps that lends some additional credibility to his comments about aiming systems.

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Shown below is a partial transcript provided by Lou Figueroa of what John and Corey said, leaving out the occasional comments on LD shafts and Corey’s describing how he teaches:

John Schmidt: Well, don’t get me started on aiming systems. I’ll tell you if...

Maybe they work... but nobody’s telling me the one’s that work. Because if they work, first of all you’re not factoring in swerve and deflection. OK, now what if a guy comes up with a delivery system, that’s different. But, aiming’s adorable -- but you still have to deliver -- so you could aim perfect. If those aiming systems worked, well there would just be like four million people who played like Corey. But it’s year after year and it’s still Corey.

So these aiming systems are overrated, they’re a way to sell videos and books and make people pontificate about their own greatness and believe me if it worked, then they’d be out there winning tournaments, but they’re not.

What Stevie Moore doesn’t get is -- Stevie Moore -- you could put a bag over his head and he’d run out. He’s a great player. So he’s playing great in spite of his aiming system, not because of it. I mean, think about it: he’s already a great player. He could aim at the wall and he’s still going to make the ball. And it’s a way to give him comfort and confidence. He’s kind of like tricked himself into thinking ‘this aiming system works.’

(John sets up to demonstrate a shot.) I just can’t see how I’m going to use english here and I’m going to aim bottom right english. So I’m aiming out here -- it’s going to squirt. Well, what aiming system is going to work for that?! It’s only going to work with center ball. And you know, all these guys with their aiming systems can get like weight from me. And I don’t use an aiming system.

Corey Duel: Yeah the one that he’s talking about I haven’t been able to comprehend it yet. It’s something about pivoting the back foot and... I don’t know.

John Schmidt: My piece of advice, if anybody cares to the viewers at home: forget all the aiming systems. Just like when you throw a baseball to first, you just do it. Right? There’s no aiming, you do it, you feel it. It’s same with pool. You get a mental picture and you do it. Aiming systems are the most ridiculous, overrated thing...The pros scoff at that stuff, they’re like, ‘aiming systems, really?!’...

If they would quit spending so much time on line and learning about aiming systems and go hit more balls they’d become better players. There’s no short cut to it. Sitting on AZ Billiards looking for aiming systems isn’t going to get it. It’s like the golf swing guys. They got a thousand videos. But the guy that goes to the driving range till his hands bleed, that’s the good golfer. You can’t watch it online and go, ‘oh, there’s got to be a system for hitting a four iron two hundred yards on the green.’ It’s the same with pool. We’ve hit a million pool balls -- that’s our system. I mean, you’re not going to get good at anything using a system.

I could be wrong, I don’t know if I’m right. I just think aiming systems are crazy. Deflection and swerve is what makes this game so tough. If there was no such thing as that, you know you just hit whatever english, but this thing goes sideways off of your stick. That’s why the game’s so impossible.
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Well, after this latest go around, I for sure am in total agreement, with these pros, that "aiming systems" are way over rated.

Also it appears they have a different take deflection and swerve. Most stuff I read are about how to avoid their affects on a shot. Which makes since that playing conditions are never the same and as such the amount of deflection and swerve is never the same from shot to shot. Plus the distance the OB is from the pocket comes into play as well as the the distance the CB is from the OB, oh and the OB/CB angle, or if it is a rail first shot, dirty balls, clean balls, different CB, table cloth, humidity or so on.

It is these factors above that make any aiming system useless. There is not a system sold that can adjust for these factors above. This is where these two are speaking from, the real world of pool which those factors I listed make this game nothing like golf, baseball, bowling or even shooting a rifle.

I don't use a aiming system, I use visualization. I look to where I want to put the CB. I see the CB going to that spot I picked. I then execute.

 

[Living Legend]

this is what i am hearing from CJ and I have not tried this at a table but how hard can this be to figure out?

1. the pocket is split into 3 parts.
2. the aiming point (line) of the pocket is always the side of the pocket closest to the object ball.
3. use a hair to a half tip offset of the vertical axis of the cue ball to the inside.
4. he hits inside english while aiming at object ball so a missed hit cue ball will still make the object ball because you will end up hitting center cue ball and making the ball in the far third of the pocket..

Now with his experience cj must have this all tweaked out and its pretty much impossible to explain all the tweaks he has for all shots to get shape on.

 

[swest]

this is what i am hearing from CJ and I have not tried this at a table but how hard can this be to figure out?
.
.
.

I don't think the question was about 'figuring it out'. The question, at least the one that most interested me, was, and I paraphrase, "How does this increase the margin of error?"

 

[Living Legend]

it is supposed to decrease the margin of error, isn't that what he is saying this technique does? do i have to actually start paying attention now lol?

 

[swest]

it is supposed to decrease the margin of error, isn't that what he is saying?

Work that through. If you decrease the margin of error, you would have less room for error...

But, to take the semantic out of it, I'll restate and say that the question I'm interested in is, "How does this make it more likely that I'll make the shot?"

 

[Living Legend]

He is using the aiming point of the pocket that is always the side of the pocket closest to the object ball (X in that picture I put up or the outside of the pocket). He has now opened up the pocket because of where he is aiming. By using inside English and aiming at the outside of the pocket, if he misses the contact point on the cue ball he will hit center cue ball and that will still make the shot. If its over cut he will still make the ball in the far third of the pocket.


His target is the X in the picture, his target is always the outside third of the pocket unless he decides to tweak the shot for shape i guess.

 

[Neil]

Well, after this latest go around, I for sure am in total agreement, with these pros, that "aiming systems" are way over rated.

Also it appears they have a different take deflection and swerve. Most stuff I read are about how to avoid their affects on a shot. Which makes since that playing conditions are never the same and as such the amount of deflection and swerve is never the same from shot to shot. Plus the distance the OB is from the pocket comes into play as well as the the distance the CB is from the OB, oh and the OB/CB angle, or if it is a rail first shot, dirty balls, clean balls, different CB, table cloth, humidity or so on.

It is these factors above that make any aiming system useless. There is not a system sold that can adjust for these factors above. This is where these two are speaking from, the real world of pool which those factors I listed make this game nothing like golf, baseball, bowling or even shooting a rifle.

I don't use a aiming system, I use visualization. I look to where I want to put the CB. I see the CB going to that spot I picked. I then execute.

You want to put things on a discussion board, then discuss them. I've asked you before, others have also, and all you want to do is post mis-information and run away. What you did post is just plain wrong. It comes from a lack of knowledge on your part. You know next to nothing of any other aiming systems, and don't even know that a bunch of others exist. So, how can you make the statements that you do?? What are you basing them on that anyone should listen to what you have to say??

 

[swest]

He is using the aiming point of the pocket that is always the side of the pocket closest to the object ball (X in that picture I put up or the outside of the pocket). He has now opened up the pocket because of where he is aiming. By using inside English and aiming at the outside of the pocket, if he misses the contact point on the cue ball he will hit center cue ball and that will still make the shot. If its over cut he will still make the ball in the far third of the pocket.


His target is the X in the picture, his target is always the outside third of the pocket unless he decides to tweak the shot for shape i guess.

Yes, so this technique accounts for the possibility that he might not hit the cueball exactly where he expects to. I think I get that, and should have inferred it from my earlier exchange with him.

I'm still not convinced that this improves the overall chance of making the ball. I'll have to work through that a little more.

Thanks.

 

[Living Legend]

Yes, so this technique accounts for the possibility that he might not hit the cueball exactly where he expects to. I think I get that, and should have inferred it from my earlier exchange with him.

I'm still not convinced that this improves the overall chance of making the ball. I'll have to work through that a little more.

Thanks.

correct and i think that is what he is saying >> accounts for the possibility that he might not hit the cueball exactly where he expects to. His miss hit on the cue ball will be center cue ball and because he opened the pocket up it will still go in.

It sounds like it will work and if he says it does, it must... this is all my opinion of how i see it and i honestly have not read much in here.

 

[One Pocket John]

If you line up the OB (12 oclock) and QB (12 oclock) for a straight in shot (a couple of diamonds away) at the corner pocket (right corner in this example) you dont aim and shoot at 12 oclock, you aim and shoot at maybe 11:58 or 11:59. This gives you a larger area (on the OB) for error.

John

 

[AtLarge]

...
4. he hits inside english while aiming at object ball so a missed hit cue ball will still make the object ball because you will end up hitting center cue ball and making the ball in the far third of the pocket ...

For the cut to the left in your diagram, a miss hit by hitting center CB would pocket the ball in the near (not far) third of the pocket (if CJ did it as intended).

... His miss hit on the cue ball will be center cue ball and because he opened the pocket up it will still go in. ...

Not because he opened the pocket up, but because he aims for the near third and tries to squirt it into the center. A miss-hit to center CB eliminates the squirt and pockets the OB to the near side. A miss hit to slightly more inside english pockets the OB to the far side (more squirt). Of course, a major miss hit on the CB to the right is a missed shot (undercut because of squirt in the wrong direction) and a major miss hit on the CB to the left is a missed shot (overcut; too much squirt).

 

[Living Legend]

For the cut to the left in your diagram, a miss hit by hitting center CB would pocket the ball in the near (not far) third of the pocket (if CJ did it as intended).

I put about 10 minutes thinking into this and did not really give it deep thought

Not because he opened the pocket up, but because he aims for the near third and tries to squirt it into the center. A miss-hit to center CB eliminates the squirt and pockets the OB to the near side. A miss hit to slightly more inside english pockets the OB to the far side (more squirt). Of course, a major miss hit on the CB to the right is a missed shot (undercut because of squirt in the wrong direction) and a major miss hit on the CB to the left is a missed shot (overcut; too much squirt).

When I say opening the pocket up, I mean the perception is that you have a bigger target. I am not interested in the squirt and all that stuff. If I was I would be PJ and dr Dave put together lol if I ever get to a pool table I will try this out. I just took a crack at what he is saying since I have not seen anyone post up with a clear view

 

[BeiberLvr]

I thought I posted a pretty clear picture of what CJ was talking about.

 

[Living Legend]

sorry man, i don't really pay a lot of attention on here especially when the back and forth stuff starts about meaningless things that about 3 people care about on this site and then take a thread over.

 

[BeiberLvr]

no worries just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my awesome picture.

 

[Living Legend]

no worries just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my awesome picture.

so have you tried this technique at the table yet?

 

[8pack]

I gave this ago today.


Gotta ask this first.
When a ball leaves after contact to the pocket, does it matter how its hit
just so long they all travel the same path?I keep hearing this margin of error coming up and im thinking it dosnt matter how the balls hit it has to take the rite path.


Is the so purpose of this just a aiming technique cause I can see where you can benefit from this on certain shots.
I spent about 2 hours on this today while im not going to change a whole lot on what I already do I actually found a knew approach on certain shots.
And im more confused than any of you .

Also speed had to be really accounted for.(unless im doing it wrong)

 

[CJ Wiley]

Use IT or Lose IT

I gave this ago today.


Gotta ask this first.
When a ball leaves after contact to the pocket, does it matter how its hit
just so long they all travel the same path?I keep hearing this margin of error coming up and im thinking it dosnt matter how the balls hit it has to take the rite path.


Is the so purpose of this just a aiming technique cause I can see where you can benefit from this on certain shots.
I spent about 2 hours on this today while im not going to change a whole lot on what I already do I actually found a knew approach on certain shots.
And im more confused than any of you .

Also speed had to be really accounted for.(unless im doing it wrong)

Yes, the core issue of why players miss balls is more about deceleration.....what you learned today about speed control is starting to open your "eyes" to new possiblities.....I have several different practice routines I do to CALIBRATE my spin/deflection/speed control and on super tight tables this is very important.....on this level of gambling you can't afford to miss a single ball without KNOWING why you missed it so you can make an adjustment if necessary.....It's been said several times "someone must accelerate on every shot to understand how veer/deflection/spin effect their shots, and if you don't USE it, you will surely LOSE IT

 

[CJ Wiley]

"As a man thinketh"

When I say opening the pocket up, I mean the perception is that you have a bigger target. I am not interested in the squirt and all that stuff. If I was I would be PJ and dr Dave put together lol if I ever get to a pool table I will try this out. I just took a crack at what he is saying since I have not seen anyone post up with a clear view

You are starting to understand the most important part - finding a way to use the WHOLE pocket as a target instead of just the center....even if you aim at the side closest to the ball and THINK it into over cutting you'll be better off than most players....please, scientists don't scold me about telling someone they can "think" a ball into overcutting (lol):smile-us-down:...and you'd be surprised, I've seen many people "think" their way into missing in all kinds of ways....even not getting the ball to the pocket at all...the mind is an incredible tool for achieving positive results...or not.

 

[Mikjary]

CJ,

Keep talking. I'm listening and so are a lot of lurkers. Some people are more intent on the physical black and white of what you're saying and have missed your mental lesson. The idea is without a doubt an exercise in simple logic. If you look past that, you miss the subtlety of the idea.

We have a mutual pro friend who swears he has been cheating himself out of half a pocket for years. The last year or so he has been telling me he has developed a slight move towards inside english both ways when he cuts a ball. It is driving him nuts trying to figure out why. When I talk to him tonight, he'll understand.

This simple change in the thinking process is not just a way of rehashing old methods to pocket balls. Don't start defending what you said. This is a new way of looking at the game I've never thought about. The first example where you offered the bet and then evolved into aiming to portions of the pocket to increase the margin of error was a lot more than warmed over info. It is the first stone in the consistency foundation and I'd like to hear more.

If some haven't gotten what you've said so far, fahgedaboudit! Let's move on! Let 'em reread the thread. They'll catch up. :smile: This is great info. It's not about making a shot, or how to cue to make a shot. It's about how to approach every shot mentally.

Best,
Mike