n00b questions about 9-ball breaks

Luther Blissett

Luther Blissett

on the clapham omnibus
Silver Member
OK, so...

Recently my girlfriend and I watched various videos of the Mosconi cup.

She noticed that the rules were quite tight about what constituted a legal break.

There are a few things I would like clarification on. First is about the rules as applied during the Mosconi cup, and second is about how many of those rules usually apply in a standard game of nine ball (as played by most players in clubs etc).

So, in the Mosconi, as I understand, for a break to be legal at least four balls had to touch a cushion, and at least two had to come back over the line (to reach the kitchen, so to speak).

My girlfriend thought that two balls had to reach only as far as the top half of the table (the half opposite the racked balls), which is obviously not quite as far as the kitchen. Which of us is right there?

Also, if a break is not legal, my belief was that this constituted a foul, and so the other player would now have ball in hand, although my girlfriend thought that after an illegal break the player simply loses his visit to the table rather than gave away ball in hand. Which of us is right there?

Lastly, when most people play 9-ball, what is generally taken to be a legal break? ...OK I expect at least some of you will come back and tell me that there is no general agreement and the rules change according to where you are, which league, etc, but if there is anything even close to "standard" rules regarding the break, then I'd like to know what they are.

Thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies! :)
 
First of all let me just tell you how lucky you are to have a girlfriend that will watch the mosconi cup with you and take enough interest to pay attention to any of the rules. Now, to answer your question I believe the 2010 cup required 3 balls to pass the headstring(with a pocketed ball counting as a ball past the headstring) but not sure about anything prior to that. I'm not sure whether the 4balls to the rail rule applied along with the 3 balls past the headstring. But, I can almost guarantee you wont send 3 past the headstring without sending 4 balls to the rail, so it doesnt matter much. I've always played the 4balls to the rail rule, and ive never heard of anybody playing in the pool room with a different break rule. I don't really like the 3 past the headstring rule because it doesnt allow for much of a soft-break technique which seems to be incredibly effective if done right. As for what happens after an illegal break, ball in hand is not given, because it is not a cueball foul. My understanding is that ball in hand is only given for cueball fouls such as not contacting the object ball and/or driving a ball to the rail after contact.
 
Thanks very much for that. ...So just to be really clear, after an illegal break the player who broke simply walks away from the table and his or her opponent has the option to play either push-out or take on the one ball from wherever the cue ball sits, right?

p.s. Yes I am very very lucky! She is the apple of my eye and the cream in my coffee! :)
 
Luther Blissett said:
Thanks very much for that. ...So just to be really clear, after an illegal break the player who broke simply walks away from the table and his or her opponent has the option to play either push-out or take on the one ball from wherever the cue ball sits, right?

p.s. Yes I am very very lucky! She is the apple of my eye and the cream in my coffee! :)
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In those rules, if it's simply an "illegal" break and not a foul, the other player takes over the position as is, but can pass it back, as in a push. From what the announcers said, you don't need to even declare a push out, you can just have the other guy go back to the table and make him/her push. Keep in mine that these are NOT standard 9 ball break rules, and you won't find many, if any, tournaments use this 3 balls past the string rule.

Silly rule, it's only there to prevent soft breaks, but it's very easy to break hard and make a ball or even 2 and have nothing pass the string or just have one ball do that. They just need to setup a break speed measuring device. Anything over 18 mph should be a good "hard" break. I've seen an illegal break called when the 3rd ball to just about pass the string get kissed about 1mm away from it and get knocked back, WTH is that for a rule? It's almost as bad as accepting crap shots in 9 ball, guy misses, leaves an accidental safe and gets another chance to win the game.

Breaking hard, making a ball in, and having to sit because you got some funny kisses on the table to prevent 3 balls from going in or reaching the string is dumb.
 
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Luther Blissett said:
Thanks very much for that. ...So just to be really clear, after an illegal break the player who broke simply walks away from the table and his or her opponent has the option to play either push-out or take on the one ball from wherever the cue ball sits, right?

p.s. Yes I am very very lucky! She is the apple of my eye and the cream in my coffee! :)
Click to expand...

the incoming player after an illegal break(the player who did not break) has the option to play the lowest ball, push-out, or give the turn back to the player who broke(in which case the breaker cannot refuse the turn, but may still pushout).
 
hang-the-9 said:
In those rules, if it's simply an "illegal" break and not a foul, the other player takes over the position as is, but can pass it back, as in a push. Keep in mine that these are NOT standard 9 ball break rules, and you won't find many, if any, tournaments use this 3 balls past the string rule.

Silly rule, it's only there to prevent soft breaks, but it's very easy to break hard and make a ball or even 2 and have nothing pass the string or just have one ball do that. They just need to setup a break speed measuring device. Anything over 18 mph should be a good "hard" break.

Breaking hard, making a ball in, and having to sit because you got some funny kisses on the table to prevent 3 balls from going in or reaching the string is dumb.
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didn't see your post before i made mine, but very well put, and i agree!
 
Breaking hard, making a ball in, and having to sit because you got some funny kisses on the table to prevent 3 balls from going in or reaching the string is dumb.

i thought that these elements were the charm of 9 ball? a game that offers the chance for anyone to win given they make the 9 more times than their opponent, is a good description of the game. if u want 2 play a game where luck, good or bad, has its least effect then play 1 hole; but you will always have rolls, jelly and otherwise.

just enjoy the game.
 
Since it seems the other 2 gentlemen answer the question about the break rules pretty well I will touch on the "standard rules" part a bit more.

The reality of the situation is this, if you are playing someone in a pool room or a bar some 9 ball and they are NOT getting 4 balls to a rail, you are either robbing them or they are robbing you. And you should be able to figure this out pretty quickly. They are either soft breaking cause they are a champion and can run out the same pattern every time, you will also notice them pattern racking in they are this good. If they just have a garbage break and you are most likely going to beat them.

Point is, I would not really bring it up... Either the play is not going to know what your talking about and get annoyed, or they are going to know exactly what your talking about and you should prolly just quit them.

No one plays the 3 balls past the head string (that is the term you were looking for, "Past the head string" is the same as "in the kitchen") unless it's in a tournament that specifically uses that rule.
 
Another difference that no one has touched upon is that in The Mosconi Cup, the 9-ball is racked on the spot, whereas most all other games, the 1-ball is racked on the spot.

As I understand it, that is to make it more difficult, as the top pro's can put the 1 in the side pocket virtually every time, when racked on the spot.
 
justadub said:
Another difference that no one has touched upon is that in The Mosconi Cup, the 9-ball is racked on the spot, whereas most all other games, the 1-ball is racked on the spot.

As I understand it, that is to make it more difficult, as the top pro's can put the 1 in the side pocket virtually every time, when racked on the spot.
Click to expand...

Which are you saying makes it more difficult, the one on the spot or the nine on the spot?

Because while the nine on the spot does open up the chance of the one in the side, it takes away the wired corner ball, which allows you to make a ball and play shape on the one. With the nine on the spot, you at least can't play shape on the one (assuming you're playing a cut break to make it in the side pocket).

Of the two, the nine on the spot makes it a tougher game, in my opinion, if only marginally.
 
justadub said:
Another difference that no one has touched upon is that in The Mosconi Cup, the 9-ball is racked on the spot, whereas most all other games, the 1-ball is racked on the spot.

As I understand it, that is to make it more difficult, as the top pro's can put the 1 in the side pocket virtually every time, when racked on the spot.
Click to expand...

The 9 on the spot came about (from what I gathered at least) from the Sardo and other "perfect rack" devices. They moved it to stop the corner ball and the 1 ball from being almost automatic. Did not help much. You can make the 1 in the side with the 9 on the spot and the corner ball still went in the bottom corners.

I think the biggest issue with the 9 ball rack these days is pattern racking which is against the rules anyway, the world standard rules say "1 in front, 9 in the middle, the rest arranged in a random order". Having a perfect rack, the ability to place balls in a specific order, and working out a soft break is what makes the break and runs boring for top level players.

Actually he biggest issue with 9 ball is that the pro tournaments should be playing 10 ball LOL
 
SakuJack said:
Which are you saying makes it more difficult, the one on the spot or the nine on the spot?

Because while the nine on the spot does open up the chance of the one in the side, it takes away the wired corner ball, which allows you to make a ball and play shape on the one. With the nine on the spot, you at least can't play shape on the one (assuming you're playing a cut break to make it in the side pocket).

Of the two, the nine on the spot makes it a tougher game, in my opinion, if only marginally.
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Correct, it is more difficult to BnR with the 9 on the spot, for the reasons you state. It is standard in the UK (and eurotour?)

The other UK variant is to put the two ball at the back of the pack, to prevent...cut break one in the side...pattern racking on the two.

I'm not sure if the two ball was placed at the back in the MC or not?
 
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