Death of a sport (Long post)

Philthepockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It does not feel like 40 years but checking my calendar, noticing my 55th birthday cards on the mantle and admiring the slippers I received as a gift from my wife and the boys it shocks me into the realization that it is indeed 40 years.
40 years since I first picked up a cue in anger, I remember it so well.

There I was at Ace Billiards in Vancouver on table 3 playing with a friend I had just recently met through a mutual musician friend, we all had an interest in guitar at that time and this love of music and Billiards would continue for most of my life.

I actually first picked up a cue a few years earlier when my elementary schools best friends parents who were expats from the UK put a 5x10 snooker table in their basement. I was about 10 at the time we played a few times and I loved the sound of the balls clicking and the thunk of the ball hitting the leather on the back of the pocket, the satisfaction of accomplishment when the ball goes in and you get another turn.

This brush with snooker didn’t last long, as kids do we found other interests and moved on. Later when I was about 14 we had a 4x8 pool table in our own basement and I played occasionally but never really took it seriously. Then one day I was invited to Ace billiards by my friend to play a little on the big tables.

Ace billiards was the follow up to Chenier hall after that closed. Big Bill Werbeniuks regular haunt when he was home from the UK and occasionally Cliff Thorburn or Kirk Stevens would drop by, there was always a good player in the house so it was here that I learned quite a bit about the game. There were only 4 Brunswick Anniversary snooker tables and a bar box at Ace, the game of choice in Canada had always been snooker.

The game on table 3 went quite well that day and I remember clearing the colours to win against my friend who was a decent player at the time and that set me on the road to falling in love with the game.

Around 1979 I decided I wanted to spend some time in the UK and having expat parents myself I went to stay with relatives for a year and ended up staying for 13 years but that is another story.

During the 80’s snookers heyday I played and watched snooker on TV religiously. Cliff Thorburn became world champion in 1980 and Canada had 3 players in the top 8 in the world, Cliff along with Billy and Kirk Stevens were regulars on the TV. Alain Robidoux came through in the late 80’s early 90’s and was the last of the more successful Canadian professionals.
We had some other pro's during those years with Bob Chaperon, Mario Morra, and Marcel Gavreau etc. trying to make their mark but they were faced with an upcoming generation of coached and groomed young British players that ultimately proved too strong for these aging club players, Canada also had a number of great amateur players during these years.

The players of this era were club players and played because they loved the game, most were not coached or pushed into the game because it was not a respected sport and there was no legitimate living to be made it just happened that the game became successful and the players of the day were lucky enough to be along for the ride.

Returning to Canada with my family in the early 90’s I found that Pool had taken over much of the space in the pool rooms, the tournaments were all pool and most of the snooker players had either quit turned their hands to pool or just gotten too old but pool seemed to be doing pretty well and there were still new rooms popping up around Vancouver so I followed suit and myself spent more time playing 9 ball.

Over the last 5 years or so the 9 ball has dried up, lots of rooms closed, many good players don’t even play anymore and there has not been a serious 9 ball tournament around here for years. Snooker is about as dead as John Cleeses parrot, the winds of change have blown through the world of pocket billiards.

I have some ideas on what caused this plague, could be technology and the distractions it brings to young people or a push for more active sports from the new generation, but whatever the cause or causes I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel. I know snooker had some past issues even in the UK with the loss of tobacco money, poor management and such but Barry Hearn entered the fray and has managed to turn this around. We are now seeing growth in Europe and China and some resurgence in the UK.

So after this brief history lesson according to me :p I am still left with the question of what if anything can be done to resurrect the sport in Canada.
Keep in mind we have very poor local and national associations, well more like lame ducks really that have done nothing to promote or grow the sport in Canada and cannot be relied upon any time soon to change.
Where do we go from here?, accept that the sport is dead and move on with our lives or put our heart and soul into something that likely will end in disappointment.

We need to start grass roots and develop new young talent but in order to do that the game needs exposure to show that this can be a sound professional career choice with great rewards at the top or at least provide a good living as with golf, tennis or ice hockey, it needs credibility.

Credibility that can really only be achieved with television exposure. TV exposure requires demand or at the very least proven returns on advertising investment but I suspect we are at the chicken and egg juncture in Canada with this. I don’t honestly know the answer or even where to start making progress but I do know 100% that continuing with the current trend this great sport is lost in this country and that’s sad when you look at where we were in the 1980’s.
 

Underclocked

.........Whut?.........
Silver Member
Whatever the cure, I hope it applies equally to the US. Would love nothing more than to see a resurgence of snooker on this continent.
 
The trouble with snooker is it's just too damn hard. It takes absolute dedication to become even mildly proficient, and we no longer live in the world where one thing dominates our lives. That tends to happen when there's sod all else to do - say for 13 years in grim 70s & 80s Britain...

The long term survival of the game depends on China, India and other countries with large populations, lots of cheap real estate and low average incomes. Whilst Bob Dixon is a wind up merchant, he is right on one thing; prize money is key to encourage new players into the game and that depends on sponsorship. The UK is at the start of a steep decline in the popularity of snooker, and will be in joining Canada soon in terms of not developing great players and having legions of fans.

Learn Mandarin.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
The trouble with snooker is it's just too damn hard. It takes absolute dedication to become even mildly proficient, and we no longer live in the world where one thing dominates our lives. That tends to happen when there's sod all else to do - say for 13 years in grim 70s & 80s Britain...

The long term survival of the game depends on China, India and other countries with large populations, lots of cheap real estate and low average incomes. Whilst Bob Dixon is a wind up merchant, he is right on one thing; prize money is key to encourage new players into the game and that depends on sponsorship. The UK is at the start of a steep decline in the popularity of snooker, and will be in joining Canada soon in terms of not developing great players and having legions of fans.

Learn Mandarin.

Actually I think one of the biggest barriers is the IDEA that snooker is too hard, regardless of whether it is or not. This concept of snooker being a superior and more challenging game I think drives off new players as they head back to pool where they are more comfortable. The existence of pool as a viable alternative is a tricky hurdle for snooker to overcome.

When I suggest to recreational players to give snooker a try, they respond "I'm not good enough for snooker". No idea what that means, but there are plenty of people enjoying a frame of snooker who feel great to make a 20 break. But perhaps part of the problem lies in pool players taking their performance expectations with them to the snooker table. If they consider consistent run outs to be the benchmark for high level pool and then expect similar results on a snooker table, they will surely be disappointed. Consistent frame winning breaks are generally reserved for top level players in the same way consistent 50-100 ball runs are for top level pool players.

Hard or not, there are players of all skill levels to compete with and it isn't too hard to handicap. Of course if you are coming from pool to snooker, you won't be competing at your same relative handicap, but it's a new game so of course there will be a learning curve. But surely with a little effort you can get there.
 

Scaramouche

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Perhaps you should concentrate on the game, not the table.

Snooker on 9 ft pool table is a better game than pool games.
IMHO :grin:
All the shots of pool are there to be used.
Points reward skill.
Pool wins based on a particular ball does not necessarily reward the better player.

So get some cheap snooker cues and balls and start converting pool players.

Once they like the game they may be more willing to seek the greater challenges of the big table with those tiny pockets.
 

bountybuddy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Snooker used to be my favorite pocket billiard game. I never played it well but it sure was fun to play. There is a pool hall in Flint, Michigan that has a very nice well kept snooker table. Middle age to older guys play golf on the snooker table. I'd lose $15.00 bucks and quit and watch it for hours. I'm retired so I can't afford to lose very much and keep my wife. She has to stay guys. Some of the guys at the pool hall want my wife to find a wife for them, that's how much they like her.

You don't see many snooker tables any more in America near where I live. There used to be a real nice place that had 30 9' Brunswick tables and a very nice snooker table. They did a good business but it started slowing down and they ended up selling the pool tables and having card games. The name of the place was Stix. I never went back after they sold the pool tables so I don't know how well they did with the cards.

There has been a beautiful snooker table for sale in Cebu City, Philippines, about one hour drive north of where I live for 8 or 10 years. I've thought about buying it but it takes up so much room and I'm not sure it would be used.

In the UK Ronnie O'Sullaven (Sp?) made millions playing snooker and retired very young. Steve Mizerak said he wished he would have played snooker in the UK and not pocket billiards in America.

I have given away $600.00 US dollars in prize money twice trying to increase my pool hall business. That is about 25,000P Philippine money for each $600.00. It did not help. Players have ask me to have more big tournaments like this but I will not do it. It's great fun, good players and people come to the tournament but they not come back to support my pool hall after the tournament has finished. They live about a one hour drive from my pool hall.

I give away about $20.00 US dollars on small tournaments for my customers. They love it and I enjoy it very much. It puts a little money in some of there pockets.

In America big business has to support some big tournaments for there to be a future for pool. I was hoping Paul Newman and Tom Cruise would make one more movie about pool before Paul Newman died but it was not to be. That would have given pool a much needed shot in the arm for about 25 years.

Shoot well my friends.
 

Philthepockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The long road back

The concept of individual sport has over the last couple of decades has faded into oblivion.
Schools have a mandate to promote team sports, hockey, football, soccer etc. Individual achievements are usually seen as academics or music, in fact I don’t know that there is any individual sport promoted in schools, maybe the chess club and some physical activities such as judo or wrestling but are also often in a team environment and not really viewed as a future career.
This team concept among parents was noticeably more prevalent here than it was in the UK so I am wondering if this mindset is also a factor and you know what the lure of big money in the major league sports can do to parents, I’ve seen it on the sidelines!

The few billiard clubs that are left seem to have little interest in development or promotion, sure they hold the odd small event now and again and hope people turn up but it’s always a half hearted attempt and I am not convinced this on it’s own is going to bring about the wholesale change required to start producing world class players again.

I once offered a local room to start a juniors coaching and league on Saturday mornings, offering my time for free and was given every excuse under the sun why it would not work or could not work, they simply had no interest. We need the support from the rooms to get anything off the ground, even if it’s just the table time to get the kids playing.

The whole infrastructure was there in the UK for producing players. From the working mens, labour and conservative clubs to the many snooker rooms that were opened in the 80’s. The many leagues for city and county players, the amateur championships and the lure of the pro game they had all the parts of the puzzle to produce great players.
Currently we virtually have none of these things, the Legions of late have been taking out the 6x12’s as have many of the pool rooms and there are no leagues to speak of.

This “UK” model I outlined is not the only approach though. China has started producing some excellent players of late through the programs they started a few years back and I think this model has some potential here as it does not require the large infrastructure to get started, what is does require though as I said before is credibility of the game for the commitment of the parents to follow, the toughest hurdle in my opinion.
More on the Chinese model later.
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Good post !

It does not feel like 40 years but checking my calendar, noticing my 55th birthday cards on the mantle and admiring the slippers I received as a gift from my wife and the boys it shocks me into the realization that it is indeed 40 years.
40 years since I first picked up a cue in anger, I remember it so well.

There I was at Ace Billiards in Vancouver on table 3 playing with a friend I had just recently met through a mutual musician friend, we all had an interest in guitar at that time and this love of music and Billiards would continue for most of my life.

I actually first picked up a cue a few years earlier when my elementary schools best friends parents who were expats from the UK put a 5x10 snooker table in their basement. I was about 10 at the time we played a few times and I loved the sound of the balls clicking and the thunk of the ball hitting the leather on the back of the pocket, the satisfaction of accomplishment when the ball goes in and you get another turn.

This brush with snooker didn’t last long, as kids do we found other interests and moved on. Later when I was about 14 we had a 4x8 pool table in our own basement and I played occasionally but never really took it seriously. Then one day I was invited to Ace billiards by my friend to play a little on the big tables.

Ace billiards was the follow up to Chenier hall after that closed. Big Bill Werbeniuks regular haunt when he was home from the UK and occasionally Cliff Thorburn or Kirk Stevens would drop by, there was always a good player in the house so it was here that I learned quite a bit about the game. There were only 4 Brunswick Anniversary snooker tables and a bar box at Ace, the game of choice in Canada had always been snooker.

The game on table 3 went quite well that day and I remember clearing the colours to win against my friend who was a decent player at the time and that set me on the road to falling in love with the game.

Around 1979 I decided I wanted to spend some time in the UK and having expat parents myself I went to stay with relatives for a year and ended up staying for 13 years but that is another story.

During the 80’s snookers heyday I played and watched snooker on TV religiously. Cliff Thorburn became world champion in 1980 and Canada had 3 players in the top 8 in the world, Cliff along with Billy and Kirk Stevens were regulars on the TV. Alain Robidoux came through in the late 80’s early 90’s and was the last of the more successful Canadian professionals.
We had some other pro's during those years with Bob Chaperon, Mario Morra, and Marcel Gavreau etc. trying to make their mark but they were faced with an upcoming generation of coached and groomed young British players that ultimately proved too strong for these aging club players, Canada also had a number of great amateur players during these years.

The players of this era were club players and played because they loved the game, most were not coached or pushed into the game because it was not a respected sport and there was no legitimate living to be made it just happened that the game became successful and the players of the day were lucky enough to be along for the ride.

Returning to Canada with my family in the early 90’s I found that Pool had taken over much of the space in the pool rooms, the tournaments were all pool and most of the snooker players had either quit turned their hands to pool or just gotten too old but pool seemed to be doing pretty well and there were still new rooms popping up around Vancouver so I followed suit and myself spent more time playing 9 ball.

Over the last 5 years or so the 9 ball has dried up, lots of rooms closed, many good players don’t even play anymore and there has not been a serious 9 ball tournament around here for years. Snooker is about as dead as John Cleeses parrot, the winds of change have blown through the world of pocket billiards.

I have some ideas on what caused this plague, could be technology and the distractions it brings to young people or a push for more active sports from the new generation, but whatever the cause or causes I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel. I know snooker had some past issues even in the UK with the loss of tobacco money, poor management and such but Barry Hearn entered the fray and has managed to turn this around. We are now seeing growth in Europe and China and some resurgence in the UK.

So after this brief history lesson according to me :p I am still left with the question of what if anything can be done to resurrect the sport in Canada.
Keep in mind we have very poor local and national associations, well more like lame ducks really that have done nothing to promote or grow the sport in Canada and cannot be relied upon any time soon to change.
Where do we go from here?, accept that the sport is dead and move on with our lives or put our heart and soul into something that likely will end in disappointment.

We need to start grass roots and develop new young talent but in order to do that the game needs exposure to show that this can be a sound professional career choice with great rewards at the top or at least provide a good living as with golf, tennis or ice hockey, it needs credibility.

Credibility that can really only be achieved with television exposure. TV exposure requires demand or at the very least proven returns on advertising investment but I suspect we are at the chicken and egg juncture in Canada with this. I don’t honestly know the answer or even where to start making progress but I do know 100% that continuing with the current trend this great sport is lost in this country and that’s sad when you look at where we were in the 1980’s.

Make it a wee bit longer & we might be able to figure out a remedy ! :wink:
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Team USA !

Whatever the cure, I hope it applies equally to the US. Would love nothing more than to see a resurgence of snooker on this continent.

I second that mate & the best chance is for a World Cup of Snooker to include teams USA & Canada for a starter ! :thumbup:
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Destination China

The trouble with snooker is it's just too damn hard. It takes absolute dedication to become even mildly proficient, and we no longer live in the world where one thing dominates our lives. That tends to happen when there's sod all else to do - say for 13 years in grim 70s & 80s Britain...

The long term survival of the game depends on China, India and other countries with large populations, lots of cheap real estate and low average incomes. Whilst Bob Dixon is a wind up merchant, he is right on one thing; prize money is key to encourage new players into the game and that depends on sponsorship. The UK is at the start of a steep decline in the popularity of snooker, and will be in joining Canada soon in terms of not developing great players and having legions of fans.

Learn Mandarin.

Agreed.

The up & coming talent will come through from China & Asia.
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Snooker / Pool

Actually I think one of the biggest barriers is the IDEA that snooker is too hard, regardless of whether it is or not. This concept of snooker being a superior and more challenging game I think drives off new players as they head back to pool where they are more comfortable. The existence of pool as a viable alternative is a tricky hurdle for snooker to overcome.

When I suggest to recreational players to give snooker a try, they respond "I'm not good enough for snooker". No idea what that means, but there are plenty of people enjoying a frame of snooker who feel great to make a 20 break. But perhaps part of the problem lies in pool players taking their performance expectations with them to the snooker table. If they consider consistent run outs to be the benchmark for high level pool and then expect similar results on a snooker table, they will surely be disappointed. Consistent frame winning breaks are generally reserved for top level players in the same way consistent 50-100 ball runs are for top level pool players.

Hard or not, there are players of all skill levels to compete with and it isn't too hard to handicap. Of course if you are coming from pool to snooker, you won't be competing at your same relative handicap, but it's a new game so of course there will be a learning curve. But surely with a little effort you can get there.

Internazionale telephone call.....

Hello ,"Can I speak to Alison Fisher please" ? No said the operator as Alison was playing @ a top pool event.

I sez right then can I speak to Darren Appleton please but I got the same reply.

So you can be a good Snooker player but to make it pay you might have to bite the bullet & cross over the ponds & switch from Snooker to Pool ! :cool::thumbup:
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The Golden Cue

Perhaps you should concentrate on the game, not the table.

Snooker on 9 ft pool table is a better game than pool games.
IMHO :grin:
All the shots of pool are there to be used.
Points reward skill.
Pool wins based on a particular ball does not necessarily reward the better player.

So get some cheap snooker cues and balls and start converting pool players.

Once they like the game they may be more willing to seek the greater challenges of the big table with those tiny pockets.

Grasshopper say.....

Ah so .

I put up my Golden Cue for a challenge & not even Mr O'Sullivan can win it , can you ?
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mr & Mrs

Snooker used to be my favorite pocket billiard game. I never played it well but it sure was fun to play. There is a pool hall in Flint, Michigan that has a very nice well kept snooker table. Middle age to older guys play golf on the snooker table. I'd lose $15.00 bucks and quit and watch it for hours. I'm retired so I can't afford to lose very much and keep my wife. She has to stay guys. Some of the guys at the pool hall want my wife to find a wife for them, that's how much they like her.

You don't see many snooker tables any more in America near where I live. There used to be a real nice place that had 30 9' Brunswick tables and a very nice snooker table. They did a good business but it started slowing down and they ended up selling the pool tables and having card games. The name of the place was Stix. I never went back after they sold the pool tables so I don't know how well they did with the cards.

There has been a beautiful snooker table for sale in Cebu City, Philippines, about one hour drive north of where I live for 8 or 10 years. I've thought about buying it but it takes up so much room and I'm not sure it would be used.

In the UK Ronnie O'Sullaven (Sp?) made millions playing snooker and retired very young. Steve Mizerak said he wished he would have played snooker in the UK and not pocket billiards in America.

I have given away $600.00 US dollars in prize money twice trying to increase my pool hall business. That is about 25,000P Philippine money for each $600.00. It did not help. Players have ask me to have more big tournaments like this but I will not do it. It's great fun, good players and people come to the tournament but they not come back to support my pool hall after the tournament has finished. They live about a one hour drive from my pool hall.

I give away about $20.00 US dollars on small tournaments for my customers. They love it and I enjoy it very much. It puts a little money in some of there pockets.

In America big business has to support some big tournaments for there to be a future for pool. I was hoping Paul Newman and Tom Cruise would make one more movie about pool before Paul Newman died but it was not to be. That would have given pool a much needed shot in the arm for about 25 years.

Shoot well my friends.

Who's got the highest break , you or 'er indoors LOL ! :grin:
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Internazional telephone call.....

The concept of individual sport has over the last couple of decades has faded into oblivion.
Schools have a mandate to promote team sports, hockey, football, soccer etc. Individual achievements are usually seen as academics or music, in fact I don’t know that there is any individual sport promoted in schools, maybe the chess club and some physical activities such as judo or wrestling but are also often in a team environment and not really viewed as a future career.
This team concept among parents was noticeably more prevalent here than it was in the UK so I am wondering if this mindset is also a factor and you know what the lure of big money in the major league sports can do to parents, I’ve seen it on the sidelines!

The few billiard clubs that are left seem to have little interest in development or promotion, sure they hold the odd small event now and again and hope people turn up but it’s always a half hearted attempt and I am not convinced this on it’s own is going to bring about the wholesale change required to start producing world class players again.

I once offered a local room to start a juniors coaching and league on Saturday mornings, offering my time for free and was given every excuse under the sun why it would not work or could not work, they simply had no interest. We need the support from the rooms to get anything off the ground, even if it’s just the table time to get the kids playing.

The whole infrastructure was there in the UK for producing players. From the working mens, labour and conservative clubs to the many snooker rooms that were opened in the 80’s. The many leagues for city and county players, the amateur championships and the lure of the pro game they had all the parts of the puzzle to produce great players.
Currently we virtually have none of these things, the Legions of late have been taking out the 6x12’s as have many of the pool rooms and there are no leagues to speak of.

This “UK” model I outlined is not the only approach though. China has started producing some excellent players of late through the programs they started a few years back and I think this model has some potential here as it does not require the large infrastructure to get started, what is does require though as I said before is credibility of the game for the commitment of the parents to follow, the toughest hurdle in my opinion.
More on the Chinese model later.

Message sent to a good friend in Canada & hopefully John will get back to you ! :thumbup:

Keep the thread going & let us know how you are getting on ! :thumbup:
 

bgrierson

Registered
Good read Phil!
IMHO, I think the lack of grass roots development along with poor organization nationwide has caused us to be in this current state. I know all the powers that be and I want to say a lot more but won't go there at this time. Why the CBSA is not giving more support to Patrick Guigui and his efforts with Snooker Canada are also a little confusing as well. We need more guys like John White & Stephane Martineau, room owners that also have a love for the game and are willing to promote...
 

Philthepockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks all for the kind words.
bgrierson
I hear ya pal, I have used that approach in the past but I am done mud slinging now. I made my grievances known with the current status quo and that's that. Time to move on and look for solutions to make some progress before I check out.

I felt that a little history and a bit of "my story" may help to qualify my life long passion and stir some souls.
I am not a great motivator or salesman nor am I a particularly good organizer.
My strengths lie elsewhere so I am not looking to be "that guy" that changed the world of cue sports lol. there are many others more qualified than I.
I can however offer some insight and ideas and with a bit of luck some of my passion will rub off.
Cheers
 

church66

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Robbie Savage meets Phil "The Power" Taylor

Thanks all for the kind words.
bgrierson
I hear ya pal, I have used that approach in the past but I am done mud slinging now. I made my grievances known with the current status quo and that's that. Time to move on and look for solutions to make some progress before I check out.

I felt that a little history and a bit of "my story" may help to qualify my life long passion and stir some souls.
I am not a great motivator or salesman nor am I a particularly good organizer.
My strengths lie elsewhere so I am not looking to be "that guy" that changed the world of cue sports lol. there are many others more qualified than I.
I can however offer some insight and ideas and with a bit of luck some of my passion will rub off.
Cheers

Might interest you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHjyeQ_jsOo
 

Philthepockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WTF has Darts gotta do with this thread I hear you ask.

There is something in there that might help you out .

Snooker was way bigger than Darts in the late 1970's early '80's but look at the differance now !

Thanks yah I love darts too and always thought pool could follow a similar model, but not my snooker nooooo :grin:
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
Good read Phil!
IMHO, I think the lack of grass roots development along with poor organization nationwide has caused us to be in this current state. I know all the powers that be and I want to say a lot more but won't go there at this time. Why the CBSA is not giving more support to Patrick Guigui and his efforts with Snooker Canada are also a little confusing as well. We need more guys like John White & Stephane Martineau, room owners that also have a love for the game and are willing to promote...

Patrick has done some good stuff so far. He was able to get the World U21 to Canada which was a wonderful event. He also has a 20,000 added tournament early next year. Have to applaud his efforts and I hope he sees continued success.
 
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