Strickland - The greatest ever

[flyvirginiaguy]

It still doesn't change the fact that Mike hasn't done much in the last 20 years. Earl has. Earl is still competing with and beating champions. Yes, Mike's accomplishments are legendary. No one will dispute that he is one of the all time greats, but he left the game early. Doesn't really matter the reason. Like I said, greatness is determined by the span of your career, and Earl has been playing at the highest level for 30+ years and continues to beat champions at 52 years old. That, to me, makes him greater than Mike.

Efren has credited several people as being the toughest he's played in different interviews throughout his career...Sigel..Buddy Hall..Nick Varner. The guy plays alot of tough people lol

Best person to ask would be Jay as he's watched them both play more than anybody. However, we can agree to disagree

lol, what does Mike leaving the pro tour early have to do with it? He is still the most winnegest pro player (even leaving pool way to early in his career).
Actually, you can go see videos of Mike beating champions at his age. Go watch the World 14.1 Sigel vs Parica; Sigel vs Ortmann (the defending champion); Sigel vs Martin straight pool matches. He also beat Mika in one of the two of their matches 100-11 (running 100 and out). And this with playing pool as a hobby now.

He is a world champion at 9 ball, 8 ball, and 14.1 multiple times (10 World championships). Rightfully, he should have also been awarded 5 US Open championships in 9 ball (as he did win 5 of those tournaments).

There is no real money in the pro tour, why would he want to play champion level full time now? Love for a game only goes so far when wanting a different kind livelihood.

As I said, Mike has the better record against Earl, and he has 50K of Earl's money.... No need for me to ask anyone heh. There is no arguing reality with what is in your head.

 

[poolmouse]

I logged on to Wikipedia and updated Earl Strickland's page, since his last few major wins were missing. Looks like Efren's page is up to date. Anyone have a list of wins for Mike Sigel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland#Titles_and_achievements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efren_Reyes#Titles_and_achievements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Sigel

Mike's "People" page on AZ Billiards doesn't reveal much, and Google searches have come up dry. Anyone know where we can find an accurate list of wins for Mike Sigel?

 

[nb92]

Funny you should mention Mike's 2 other US Open's. I was talking with him a month or so back and he mentioned he won the prior 2 of Barry's US Opens under another tournament name and Barry refused to recognize them. Mike was 20 years old when he won his "Unofficial First" and 22 when he one the first recognized US Open in 1976. If Barry would have counted the first 2 he won 3 in a row!!

Ya.. but.. (there is always a but..) back then there were like 12 people in the field. LOL... I think the first one Mike won "the youngest player ever" had 16 0r 20 people in it... not really the 128 or 256 that others had to go through....

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Ya.. but.. (there is always a but..) back then there were like 12 people in the field. LOL... I think the first one Mike won "the youngest player ever" had 16 0r 20 people in it... not really the 128 or 256 that others had to go through....

That's about how many have a true realistic chance at winning it today. But don't be so quick to think there was not as many players in Sigel's time. Pool was much more popular in the 70s, 80s. Ask Barry how many were in them. BUT, people must always try to come up with excuses for the things they may not like

I logged on to Wikipedia and updated Earl Strickland's page, since his last few major wins were missing. Looks like Efren's page is up to date. Anyone have a list of wins for Mike Sigel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Strickland#Titles_and_achievements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efren_Reyes#Titles_and_achievements
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Sigel

Mike's "People" page on AZ Billiards doesn't reveal much, and Google searches have come up dry. Anyone know where we can find an accurate list of wins for Mike Sigel?

I found a site mentioning a summation of some of his wins. But good luck with the list. Your fingers will get tired of typing all the ones he has won (including any local and regional tournaments), and over 106 pro tournaments. But here is a few tidbits.

"...You have to go back to Willie Mosconi's' 50s to find a decade as thoroughly dominated by a player as Sigel dominated the '80s. At one point he was known as "Mr. Final" due to his exploits in final matches--winning approximately 85 of 95 tournaments in which he reached the final match."

"Sigel, now 39, has collected four World Straight Pool titles--more than any active player--and at 36 was the youngest ever elected to the Hall of Fame. It was an awful lot, awful soon.... But Sigel would have won more than his four World Tournaments if they were staged annually."

The article also mentioned Sigel winning a one pocket tournament even while being away from the game. So you could add that to his repertoire. Thus, straight pool, 9 ball, 8 ball, and one pocket. Might have to search out his bank pool record if there is one.

Several time winner of the Last Call for 9 Ball, back then it was the largest payout tournament (40K or so), and it was always held at Resorts International. Watching these in the 80s, I felt they had more importance than even the US Open.

3 US Open 9 balls tournaments (should be 5 really, due to a name change).

27 9 ball pro events in the 80s alone.

10 World Championships

4 time player of the year.

And a few more tid bits:
Voted the Greatest Living Player of the 20th Century.
World record of the quickest 150-and-out run.
Mizerak is quoted as calling Mike "the greatest player on earth".

We are missing many, but you can read about many of them in the older pool and billiards mags from the 80s-90s.

 

[nb92]

That's about how many have a true realistic chance at winning it today. But don't be so quick to think there was not as many players in Sigel's time. Pool was much more popular in the 70s, 80s. Ask Barry how many were in them. BUT, people must always try to come up with excuses for the things they may not like .

I am not saying Mike was not a great player but I was not joking about the 16 player field.

I am not going to pull the info now... I will if you want BUT the first US Open that Mike won had 16 players in it. Not being funny that is the number. Maybe this year you could say that only 16 had a chance but 2012 with the large Asian contingent I would say "more than that"... ... yes pool was popular I agree but the "youngest winner of a US Open" went up against 15 other guys...

In its first edition in 1976, the U.S. Open was contested by just 16 players.

Started in 1976 and Held at Q-Master Billiards in Norfolk VA, Behrman had 15 Players and was praying for a "full field" of 16 at the time. He got it at the last moment and the U.S.Open was born.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

with the large Asian contingent I would say "more than that"... ..

I will again, say (imo), each year less than 16 have a realistic chance of winning that tournament. It is filled by many many many regional players winning qualifiers etc... And when you say Asian contingent I guess you mean Efren and Parica? And possibly Alex. Because if you say a modern contingent, Earl has not won since 2000.

The better way to do it would be to look at Mike's opponents to winning the first US Open, as compared to say a modern player. Without looking, I will bet his list of opponents looked pretty tough as compared heh.

 

[nb92]

I will again, say (imo), each year less than 16 have a realistic chance of winning that tournament. It is filled by many many many regional players winning qualifiers etc... And when you say Asian contingent I guess you mean Efren and Parica? And possibly Alex. Because if you say a modern contingent, Earl has not won since 2000.

The better way to do it would be to look at Mike's opponents to winning the first US Open, as compared to say a modern player. Without looking, I will bet his list of opponents looked pretty tough as compared heh.

NO.. in 2012 a lot of players from China and Taiwan showed up... plus the usual suspects... But even if there were 16 that had a chance... playing in and winning an event with 200+ over several days is much harder then 16 guys (4 of which had a chance to win) saying "Hey, lets have a tournament Saturday and we will call it the US OPEN!" LOL

But I can see that the only thing you are going to accept is... Mike was the best, The fields were deeper, the events harder to win. AND HE WALKED UP HILL TO AND FROM THE POOL HALL TO DO IT! .... best of luck...

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

NO.. in 2012 a lot of players from China and Taiwan showed up... plus the usual suspects... But even if there were 16 that had a chance... playing in and winning an event with 200+ over several days is much harder then 16 guys (4 of which had a chance to win) saying "Hey, lets have a tournament Saturday and we will call it the US OPEN!" LOL

But I can see that the only thing you are going to accept is... Mike was the best, The fields were deeper, the events harder to win. AND HE WALKED UP HILL TO AND FROM THE POOL HALL TO DO IT! .... best of luck...

2012? Why are you comparing 2012? We are comparing Sigel and Strickland. Don't go off course. Did Strickland win in 2012?

And btw, I guess you only accept what you "feel". Actually Nick Varner is my personal favorite player. But I certainly would not say he or Earl are better then Mike Sigel. Again, I give credit where credit is due. Mike dominated more than just 9 ball like Earl. He is probably the greatest ever at the much more skilled game of straight pool. He does not have to fall back on just 9 ball.

 

[markgw]

2012? Why are you comparing 2012? We are comparing Sigel and Strickland. Don't go off course. Did Strickland win in 2012?

And btw, I guess you only accept what you "feel". Actually Nick Varner is my personal favorite player. But I certainly would not say he or Earl are better then Mike Sigel. Again, I give credit where credit is due. Mike dominated more than just 9 ball like Earl. He is probably the greatest ever at the much more skilled game of straight pool. He does not have to fall back on just 9 ball.

I am a Sigel fan to the core of my being. He was such a great all around player and Efren used to praise him!! I still watch an occasional accu-stats tape of his matches. Infact I just watched his 150 and out on Zugland the other day. Earl Strickland is also one of my favorite players of all time. For a guy in his 50's to still play the speed he does able to beat the 20 something's and 30 something's, there has to be a lot to say about that. It's nice to see people bringing back memories of the greats from the past like Sigel. Man, he was awesome!!! Have a Happy New Year

 

[poolmouse]

In looking at Efran's list of wins (scroll up for Wiki URL), I notice he has a lot of "tour" wins listed. Earl doesn't list any "tour" wins, not surprisingly, not something that should factor into the "who was greatest" conversation.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

I am a Sigel fan to the core of my being. He was such a great all around player and Efren used to praise him!! I still watch an occasional accu-stats tape of his matches. Infact I just watched his 150 and out on Zugland the other day. Earl Strickland is also one of my favorite players of all time. For a guy in his 50's to still play the speed he does able to beat the 20 something's and 30 something's, there has to be a lot to say about that. It's nice to see people bringing back memories of the greats from the past like Sigel. Man, he was awesome!!! Have a Happy New Year

I think the 150 and out against Zugland is straight pool played at it's best. He also did it against Rempe in one of the World Championships. Actually he used to do it pretty consistently. It is a real shame the Striaght pool tournaments were not held annually back then, who knows how many World Championships he would have had in that alone.

Earl is rightfully a lot of people's favorite. He is one of the best players in 9 ball, and a very large stick of dynamite. I think if he concentrated a bit more consistently, quit beating himself up at times, he would be even better. I believe the below match shows where Earl's pace, length of time on each shot, and mannerisms should be, at all times. Efren had no chance in this match. Earl was in pure concentration on the objective. And you will notice he did not talk to much.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDI0ODcyMjky.html

But I still would not back him against a 70s, 80s Sigel. Mike was all of those things on a much more consistent basis. And only played 4 gears higher the closer to the end it got.

 

[markgw]

I have heard a slightly different account of this gambling match with Sigel vs Earl from Bill Incardona on an accu-stats commentary. The way he tells the story is Sigel played Earl a marathon for big money. After 20 plus hours Sigel wanted to quit because he was tired. Strickland was angry and said you can't quit me winner!! Sigel said I will come back and play you tomorrow, I just need to go rest. Strickland said I'm not gonna play anyone who quits me winner and they never gambled again. That is Incardona's version. Also Billy said the pool table was set up in a barn)))

One important note I left out. Not only does Bill Incardona have a different account of the gambling match with Sigel vs Strickland but he was there and had a stake in the game...You would think his version is pretty accurate...

 

[markgw]

I think the 150 and out against Zugland is straight pool played at it's best. He also did it against Rempe in one of the World Championships. Actually he used to do it pretty consistently. It is a real shame the Striaght pool tournaments were not held annually back then, who knows how many World Championships he would have had in that alone.

Earl is rightfully a lot of people's favorite. He is one of the best players in 9 ball, and a very large stick of dynamite. I think if he concentrated a bit more consistently, quit beating himself up at times, he would be even better. I believe the below match shows where Earl's pace, length of time on each shot, and mannerisms should be, at all times. Efren had no chance in this match. Earl was in pure concentration on the objective. And you will notice he did not talk to much.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDI0ODcyMjky.html

But I still would not back him against a 70s, 80s Sigel. Mike was all of those things on a much more consistent basis. And only played 4 gears higher the closer to the end it got.

The way Sigel tells the story commentating a match with Schmidt vs Ortman is, 150 and out has been executed 9 times in competition in the last 100 years. Mike Sigel has done it 5 of those times:thumbup:

 

[nick serdula]

Short sighted?

Many of the best never played in the Open. The Whip didn't until he was what 56? Way past his prime. How did he do? That is just on example. When you talk of great you can only accept what you know. For small stretches of time.
How many titles were split up no matter who won? That is why they say tournaments mean nothing to a player. What happened after the money was split and they played for all of it?
That is what a player wants to know.
Players really don't care who is the greatest. They want to know how much can we post.
That is the greatest.
Nick

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

Many of the best never played in the Open. The Whip didn't until he was what 56? Way past his prime. How did he do? That is just on example. When you talk of great you can only accept what you know. For small stretches of time.
How many titles were split up no matter who won? That is why they say tournaments mean nothing to a player. What happened after the money was split and they played for all of it?
That is what a player wants to know.
Players really don't care who is the greatest. They want to know how much can we post.
That is the greatest.
Nick

Couple questions, where were they (those that do not play tournaments) for the 500K IPT? Was it not enough money for them? Where were they during Hall's open invitation to play anyone 9 ball? Mike was a road player before the pro events, Strickland used to gamble, Parica certainly did. Where is all the stories of some closet queens posting up against them without a spot in their primes?

Sure, everyone loses a match every now and then for some green. Just the nature of the game (the rolls). But where were the great unknowns so we can measure them? Who did they beat? How many times did they do it? What was at stake? Can't hide to much these days.

 

[elizabeth9]

well said his record speaks for it self!! many pro players say sigel was best tournament player back in the day.[/QUOTE

Actually Mike does have over 100 career wins but not majors...this info is from Mike's own site to promote his new pool league: Mike “Captain Hook” Sigel is the “Tiger Woods of pool”, having won over 107 professional titles, including 38 majors.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

well said his record speaks for it self!! many pro players say sigel was best tournament player back in the day.[/QUOTE

Actually Mike does have over 100 career wins but not majors...this info is from Mike's own site to promote his new pool league: Mike “Captain Hook” Sigel is the “Tiger Woods of pool”, having won over 107 professional titles, including 38 majors.

Emmm exactly. All pro events. How many majors you think it is? World Championships, US Open, BCA Championships etc... 38 is quite alot. And Mike did not play to many he could have. Such as the US Open Straight Pool championships. He only played two I believe compared to someone like Dallas West who played what was it 15-16 of them? Both times Mike played the US Open though in 14.1 he reached the finals.

Now go look at Strickland's list, where it list tournaments like the 1985 Charlotte Open, 1985 Akron Open, wtf? These are regional events. In Mike's 100 and some, it said they did not include regional or local events, but professional events.

 

[elizabeth9]

Emmm exactly. All pro events. How many majors you think it is? World Championships, US Open, BCA Championships etc... 38 is quite alot. And Mike did not play to many he could have. Such as the US Open Straight Pool championships. He only played two I believe compared to someone like Dallas West who played what was it 15-16 of them? Both times Mike played the US Open though in 14.1 he reached the finals.

Now go look at Strickland's list, where it list tournaments like the 1985 Charlotte Open, 1985 Akron Open, wtf? These are regional events. In Mike's 100 and some, it said they did not include regional or local events, but professional events.

lol ok really...if I remember correctly Mike was present at a lot of the same events....of course I could be wrong but not likely...oh because I was there too! Btw I love Mike :smile:

 

[seether]

One important note I left out. Not only does Bill Incardona have a different account of the gambling match with Sigel vs Strickland but he was there and had a stake in the game...You would think his version is pretty accurate...

Earl the Pearl is the best pool player in the world.

 

[flyvirginiaguy]

lol ok really...if I remember correctly Mike was present at a lot of the same events....of course I could be wrong but not likely...oh because I was there too! Btw I love Mike :smile:

I never said he was not present at many events back then. And when is then? His prime era of 70s, 80s? Or 90s?

I stated what was counted in his titles won (disregarding local and regional tournaments), and how many US Open 14.1 championships he attended up to 1992 which was 2. He played 89, in which he reached the finals with Nick Varner, and again won it in 1992.

If he had not got tied up with Brunswick doing exhibitions, got away from pool for many of his prime playing years, there is no telling what he could have added to his titles. And of course if the 14.1 championships had been held annually for the years it was not around.