John Barton VS Lou Figueroa

Not sure if you just want to tease John- to get him upset.
But to be honest- what you wrote has nothin within.
Just because *a Mr. Potts* don t talk about aiming, you think you have the *final answer about aiming* ?
This is for sure one of the greatest BS i heard in a long time.

I learnt also the tough way- by try and error. Fortunatley i met in the early 80 s two very knowledged guys, who showed me how to aim better- and where to keep attention. (I hope you don t call Cliff Thorburn a *talker* or a guy he has *no clue*- if so, we may all learn something new....).

After 30 + years of playing i m done with playing in competition etc. - and if i find the time next to instruct, i have fun at the table- and since i started to *observe* S. Shuffett more and more, i was impressed about this system- and i m someone, who don t say *no, it doesn t work*, without giving it a try/shot.
I can make for sure some balls- and i was not in a position, where i had to say * i need a new aiming-system*. I was also able to make some balls with my oldschooled system and my expirience.

manual cte as well as Pro1 works.
It s that easy.
noone forces you to use it- just show respect and let other human do what they want. i don t think that you personally gave the system a single minute a try.
For that case: stop talking
If you tried and failed: just say...doesn t fit for me. (very EASY to say).

if you just want to bash, or get someone upset: go on with your style.


TheThaiger said:
Chicken? :smile:

Have you seen this series of instructional videos from Gareth Potts, would I'd rate as pretty much the best player on the planet.

He's no instructor, and it's not always pretty to watch, but perhaps you can tell me how much time he spends talking about aiming? And perhaps you can tell me how many of his students ask about aiming? I can save you a lot of time if you don't want to watch - it's absolutely none, and a complete non-issue to everyone who has learnt how to play.

Can you imagine that? An 8 part instruction by one of the world's greatest players and aiming is not mentioned - get this - AT ALL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnAH4GH2BU0

Guess who I'M going to listen to?
Click to expand...
 
BeiberLvr said:
It's not that CTE is better than GB. I mean, if both methods allow you to make the shot, then how can one be better than the other?

Now, one can be easier than the other, but really that's just a personal thing. Like taking a piss while standing vs. sitting. Same results.

The issue has always been that those opposed to the system saying it doesn't work, and it's been proven countless times over the years that it does.
Click to expand...

In principle I agree that whatever helps to find the line is a good thing. In reality though CTE is in fact better than ghost ball in just about every aspect for aiming the shot.

Where ghost ball is good and how I still use it is to find and use tangents. Sometimes you will have a shot that doesn't go to a pocket, where you need to skim a ball and go between balls, etc... for these shots I find that GB is helpful to me to estimate the tangent line. When I use CTE to find the shot line for shots I want to pocket then I can use GB to project the phantom ball along that line to better see the tangent line.

Before going to Stan's house I was definitely more prone to saying whatever works as long as it works.....all roads lead to Rome sort of thing.....but now, until I see proof otherwise....I am convinced that CTE/ProOne is the most objective and precise way to aim in pool that exists.

If there is a spectrum from no conscious thought aiming to deliberate systematic aiming for what is more precise then ghost ball is somewhere in the middle and CTE is at the very top of the precision list in my opinion.

Yesterday I learned a tricky bank. I used CTE to unlock the shot. Within five minutes I had the aiming for that bank down to the point where the ONLY WAY to miss it was to dog the stroke. This is the type of bank that comes up all the time in one pocket and it's passed up because it's tricky and the results are inconsistent IF you try to feel your way through it. If you KNOW how to aim it though then it becomes an easy shot. I mean a ridiculously easy shot.

And by "miss" it I mean not lay it in the pocket speaking of one pocket shots. In one pocket laying the ball in the pocket is almost as good as making it and sometimes better. For one hole CTE is the nuts because you get credit for putting the ball close to the hole as well. But for the bank I cite above the make percentage where the ball does fall in rose dramatically by using CTE to aim it.

The other night I was playing a very good player and he made a great bank and I complimented him on it. After we were done he showed me how to aim it. He said Reed Pierce taught it to him and Reed would go so far as to put balls on the end rail making it look impossible to get the object ball into and out of the space left. This is another example of specific knowledge trumping feel/guessing. This player KNEW with 100% certainty how to aim that shot and so his percentage for that shot was way higher than anyone who didn't know how to really aim it. Hell for that shot I would bet that most amateurs would look at it and say it's impossible if they hadn't seen it done.

Ghost ball is knowledge. It's a method. Not the best but better than nothing. CTE is higher level knowledge and for my money, $10K of which is now on the line, it's the best method for aiming that I know of. Will my stroke hold up to take advantage of this knowledge? We will see but I promise if it does then Lou is in for a world of pain because CTE aiming unlocks a whole lot more shots.
 
By the way trollger, here is a collection of videos on aiming, mostly done by snooker coaches and snooker pros, Steve Davis among them.

I know you know of these because I posted them many times.

So to say that snooker and english pool players don't talk aiming is silly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M18didHSIBE&list=PLSKV5CK_fziUA83k0dmW1Zl1LpOAFwRP5

And many many many more

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aiming in snooker&sm=3

Pay particular attention to the one about potting without the dummy (ghost) ball.
 
Last edited:
Ratta said:
Not sure if you just want to tease John- to get him upset.
But to be honest- what you wrote has nothin within.
Just because *a Mr. Potts* don t talk about aiming, you think you have the *final answer about aiming* ?
This is for sure one of the greatest BS i heard in a long time.

I learnt also the tough way- by try and error. Fortunatley i met in the early 80 s two very knowledged guys, who showed me how to aim better- and where to keep attention. (I hope you don t call Cliff Thorburn a *talker* or a guy he has *no clue*- if so, we may all learn something new....).

After 30 + years of playing i m done with playing in competition etc. - and if i find the time next to instruct, i have fun at the table- and since i started to *observe* S. Shuffett more and more, i was impressed about this system- and i m someone, who don t say *no, it doesn t work*, without giving it a try/shot.
I can make for sure some balls- and i was not in a position, where i had to say * i need a new aiming-system*. I was also able to make some balls with my oldschooled system and my expirience.

manual cte as well as Pro1 works.
It s that easy.
noone forces you to use it- just show respect and let other human do what they want. i don t think that you personally gave the system a single minute a try.
For that case: stop talking
If you tried and failed: just say...doesn t fit for me. (very EASY to say).

if you just want to bash, or get someone upset: go on with your style.
Click to expand...

All he wants to do is troll. Nothing else. He is not genuinely interested in helping anyone play better pool.
 
JB Cases said:
In principle I agree that whatever helps to find the line is a good thing. In reality though CTE is in fact better than ghost ball in just about every aspect for aiming the shot.

Where ghost ball is good and how I still use it is to find and use tangents. Sometimes you will have a shot that doesn't go to a pocket, where you need to skim a ball and go between balls, etc... for these shots I find that GB is helpful to me to estimate the tangent line. When I use CTE to find the shot line for shots I want to pocket then I can use GB to project the phantom ball along that line to better see the tangent line.

Before going to Stan's house I was definitely more prone to saying whatever works as long as it works.....all roads lead to Rome sort of thing.....but now, until I see proof otherwise....I am convinced that CTE/ProOne is the most objective and precise way to aim in pool that exists.

If there is a spectrum from no conscious thought aiming to deliberate systematic aiming for what is more precise then ghost ball is somewhere in the middle and CTE is at the very top of the precision list in my opinion.

Yesterday I learned a tricky bank. I used CTE to unlock the shot. Within five minutes I had the aiming for that bank down to the point where the ONLY WAY to miss it was to dog the stroke. This is the type of bank that comes up all the time in one pocket and it's passed up because it's tricky and the results are inconsistent IF you try to feel your way through it. If you KNOW how to aim it though then it becomes an easy shot. I mean a ridiculously easy shot.

And by "miss" it I mean not lay it in the pocket speaking of one pocket shots. In one pocket laying the ball in the pocket is almost as good as making it and sometimes better. For one hole CTE is the nuts because you get credit for putting the ball close to the hole as well. But for the bank I cite above the make percentage where the ball does fall in rose dramatically by using CTE to aim it.

The other night I was playing a very good player and he made a great bank and I complimented him on it. After we were done he showed me how to aim it. He said Reed Pierce taught it to him and Reed would go so far as to put balls on the end rail making it look impossible to get the object ball into and out of the space left. This is another example of specific knowledge trumping feel/guessing. This player KNEW with 100% certainty how to aim that shot and so his percentage for that shot was way higher than anyone who didn't know how to really aim it. Hell for that shot I would bet that most amateurs would look at it and say it's impossible if they hadn't seen it done.

Ghost ball is knowledge. It's a method. Not the best but better than nothing. CTE is higher level knowledge and for my money, $10K of which is now on the line, it's the best method for aiming that I know of. Will my stroke hold up to take advantage of this knowledge? We will see but I promise if it does then Lou is in for a world of pain because CTE aiming unlocks a whole lot more shots.
Click to expand...

Nice post....
 
jburkm002 said:
Yeah add no aiming system with high deflection shafts. New players without the natural talent everyone seems to have, should have no problems mastering the art of pool. Call it a system or just your theory of how to aim. Doesn't matter. Seems many think everyone is equal when they start playing pool and if they can shoot like the best they need to practice 8 hours a day and figure it out themselves. Even for the majority of players who shoot at a descent level. There is sooooo much we don't know about pool. TOI gets made fun of then there are many supporters. Even pro's use it. Some weren't smart enough to figure out that of course you don't use it on every shot. Aiming systems get made fun of. Turns out some pro's use one variation or another. Low deflection shafts get made fun of. Turns out lots of pro's use them. Seems many want to emulate SVB and if he doesn't do this or use that. It must be stupid because he is one of the best players in the world. Well what about the other top players right behind him?
Click to expand...

And the part that that many don't get is that sometimes pros just do something BECAUSE they have seen other pros do it and it works.

Shane was asked why he does something, I forget what, and he said it's because he saw Bustamante do it and just focused on duplicating Busty's technique.

We are all products of copying - we copy then we improve and are copied - then we improve on that and the cycle continues.
 
jburkm002 said:
Well maybe he should have done a 9 part instruction. Pretty stupid not to tell players how to aim. Ever watch new players hitting cut shot straight into the rail. That's because the don't know how to aim. Wow what a beautiful fluent stroke. Shame he doesn't know how to AIM.
Click to expand...

No one with a beautiful, fluent stroke cannot aim.
 
JB Cases said:
By the way trollger, here is a collection of videos on aiming, mostly done by snooker coaches and snooker pros, Steve Davis among them.

I know you know of these because I posted them many times.

So to say that snooker and english pool players don't talk aiming is silly - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M18didHSIBE&list=PLSKV5CK_fziUA83k0dmW1Zl1LpOAFwRP5

And many many many more

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=aiming in snooker&sm=3

Pay particular attention to the one about potting without the dummy (ghost) ball.
Click to expand...

I watch a lot of snooker - there are literally whole days of it on TV here, for weeks at a time, and I can only recall aiming being mentioned ONCE in my lifetime, when Dennis Taylor explained ghostball, a concept I'd never heard of. I remember being slightly incredulous anyone did this - still am, in fact. Commentators and analysts talk about mechanics regularly, however. .

Point being, aiming is only talked about in terms of helping the beginner understand the very concept of potting balls. You may not like this but it is true. I have NEVER heard ANYONE discuss aiming in this country. NEVER.
 
Ratta said:
Not sure if you just want to tease John- to get him upset.
But to be honest- what you wrote has nothin within.
Just because *a Mr. Potts* don t talk about aiming, you think you have the *final answer about aiming* ?
This is for sure one of the greatest BS i heard in a long time.

I learnt also the tough way- by try and error. Fortunatley i met in the early 80 s two very knowledged guys, who showed me how to aim better- and where to keep attention. (I hope you don t call Cliff Thorburn a *talker* or a guy he has *no clue*- if so, we may all learn something new....).

After 30 + years of playing i m done with playing in competition etc. - and if i find the time next to instruct, i have fun at the table- and since i started to *observe* S. Shuffett more and more, i was impressed about this system- and i m someone, who don t say *no, it doesn t work*, without giving it a try/shot.
I can make for sure some balls- and i was not in a position, where i had to say * i need a new aiming-system*. I was also able to make some balls with my oldschooled system and my expirience.

manual cte as well as Pro1 works.
It s that easy.
noone forces you to use it- just show respect and let other human do what they want. i don t think that you personally gave the system a single minute a try.
For that case: stop talking
If you tried and failed: just say...doesn t fit for me. (very EASY to say).

if you just want to bash, or get someone upset: go on with your style.
Click to expand...

Blimey...

SO you agree with Barton that aiming is more important than stroke?

ps this is "a Mr Potts". This is REALLY worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez5MF1wnS34
 
JB Cases said:
Of course you have to learn how to handle the cue at first - but for every shot taken no matter who is shooting, no matter their level the first thing done is AIMING.

It's like driving a car, first you learn all the controls then you learn how to aim and from then on it's AIMING the car first, i.e. sighting where you want the car to go THEN putting the car there.
Click to expand...

Does it not strike you as odd that the best 8 ball player on the planet bar none does not mention aiming AT ALL during 3 hours of instruction?

We have a different mindset. Your fixation with aiming is purely cultural. Your own assertion that aiming is priority numero uno for aspiring pool players is *highly* suspect, to say the least.

If you pot them off the lampshade when you play Lou, I'll eat crow.
 
TheThaiger said:
I watch a lot of snooker - there are literally whole days of it on TV here, for weeks at a time, and I can only recall aiming being mentioned ONCE in my lifetime, when Dennis Taylor explained ghostball, a concept I'd never heard of. I remember being slightly incredulous anyone did this - still am, in fact. Commentators and analysts talk about mechanics regularly, however. .

Point being, aiming is only talked about in terms of helping the beginner understand the very concept of potting balls. You may not like this but it is true. I have NEVER heard ANYONE discuss aiming in this country. NEVER.
Click to expand...

that's y ya'll can't compete:smile:
 
TheThaiger said:
No one with a beautiful, fluent stroke cannot aim.
Click to expand...

Wrong. Some of the best players on earth seek out help with aiming from time to time.





TheThaiger said:
I watch a lot of snooker - there are literally whole days of it on TV here, for weeks at a time, and I can only recall aiming being mentioned ONCE in my lifetime, when Dennis Taylor explained ghostball, a concept I'd never heard of. I remember being slightly incredulous anyone did this - still am, in fact. Commentators and analysts talk about mechanics regularly, however. .

Point being, aiming is only talked about in terms of helping the beginner understand the very concept of potting balls. You may not like this but it is true. I have NEVER heard ANYONE discuss aiming in this country. NEVER.
Click to expand...

So what? That doesn't mean anything.






TheThaiger said:
Blimey...

SO you agree with Barton that aiming is more important than stroke?

ps this is "a Mr Potts". This is REALLY worth watching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ez5MF1wnS34
Click to expand...

I didn't say it is more important. I said aiming is the first task in any shot. Perfect stroke plus wrong aim equals a miss.

TheThaiger said:
Does it not strike you as odd that the best 8 ball player on the planet bar none does not mention aiming AT ALL during 3 hours of instruction?

We have a different mindset. Your fixation with aiming is purely cultural. Your own assertion that aiming is priority numero uno for aspiring pool players is *highly* suspect, to say the least.

If you pot them off the lampshade when you play Lou, I'll eat crow.
Click to expand...

Maybe he figured that the students needed more work on their for at that time. Doesn't change the fact that all snooker instruction and all pool instruction teaches aiming at some point.
 
JB Cases said:
One side can't play????

So you're saying Stan can't play? Gerry can't play? Duke can't play? Landon can't play? Stevie can't play? Phil can't play?

Can you even play? You're some super anon NOBODY - and by that I mean SUPER SUPER SUPER nobody who likely can't even hold a cue. If your criteria for discussing how to play pool among amateurs is playing ability you have shown us exactly ZERO.

At this point the ONLY ones who have stepped up to show any ability at all have been the proponents of CTE/ProOne. No single opponent has stepped up to duplicate Stan's videos and show that they to can make the same shots with the same consistency.

NONE OF YOU. Not one, not ever. Not you, not Lou, not Duckie, not Satori, not Pat Johnson, NONE of you. I mean this is really simple.

The table doesn't lie. Put the balls in the same positions and make a video doing the same shots. If this were a trick shot forum then the challenge would be to duplicate the trick shot and if I could do it and you couldn't then it would be clear that I am better than you. Stan sets up normal shots that come up all the time in game situations.

So show us what you can do. Make all the shots and look straight into the camera and say "see, no system needed, all natural feel baby, take that Barton".

Oh but it's too hard for you to set up a camera, oh you don't have the time, oh you don't want your picture on the internet, oh you have to clean your toenails today......

That's what I thought.
Click to expand...


I think you over rating the system .Maybe your not taking into account How well Stan Plays.I'm sure if everyone here had a table you probably would have some losing bets.;)


Anthony
 
8pack said:
I think you over rating the system .Maybe your not taking into account How well Stan Plays.I'm sure if everyone here had a table you probably would have some losing bets.;)


Anthony
Click to expand...

I don't want to speak for John, but I do remember him making an offer (not a bet) of $1,000 to anyone that could duplicate the shots in as many or fewer tries as Stan did.

You have a table and a camera.

If I were you, I'd stop posting, and start collecting that free money.
 
BeiberLvr said:
I don't want to speak for John, but I do remember him making an offer (not a bet) of $1,000 to anyone that could duplicate the shots in as many or fewer tries as Stan did.

You have a table and a camera.

If I were you, I'd stop posting, and start collecting that free money.
Click to expand...

These the video's

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=352245&page=3

Post number 45.

I haven't had really that much time to play.Does look easy though.:grin:
 
BeiberLvr said:
Yeah that's the one. If it's so easy, then do it. But I'd verify with John first that his offer still stands.
Click to expand...


Maybe when I get time.There's a lot going on when banking to attach a system to be the Best solution for all.
 
8pack said:
I think you over rating the system .Maybe your not taking into account How well Stan Plays.I'm sure if everyone here had a table you probably would have some losing bets.;)


Anthony
Click to expand...

Maybe you're under rating it. Of course I am taking into account how well he plays. Still, he does not play good enough to be that consistent on all those shots without CTE. He will tell you that himself.

Again this is another case of you telling me what I saw. Were you there at Stan's with me? Did you spend an hour trying to find spots to put the object ball where Stan could not find a pocket for the ob?

Did you get this lesson and learn this system or did I?



Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
 
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