John Barton VS Lou Figueroa

TheThaiger said:
Perhaps I didn't make my suggestion clear enough. I think it would be an interesting experiment to take two non players and take a month to teach one nothing but aiming technique, and the other nothing but how to handle a cue, then compare how they get on when they get to the table.

You can be as scientifically rigorous as you please. It would make a great YouTube project for you, and prove which theory is correct conclusively.

Do you not feel it would be interesting and prove the debate one way or the other? At the end of the month one would have expert knowledge of aiming and the other would have the semblance of a decent stroke. By your reckoning, the aiming guinea pig is a lock.
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You are dense. No one on my side said it's exclusively one or the other. How about this. You find the best coach you can in England and we will film every single hour of instruction. ZERO coaching on aiming is allowed since you think aiming just happens as a by-product of acquiring a good stroke.

We take two beginners and Stan gets one and your coach gets one. The first mention of aiming by your coach causes your player to be disqualified.

All he can teach is form and strategy. Stan can teach aiming, form and strategy.

Since aiming is inconsequential in your opinion then it shouldn't matter. And since your coach will be teaching snooker form and Stan teaching pool form (I guess) then you get what you want - snooker form vs. pool form with the only difference being Stan's aiming method thrown in.

Then after one month we let the beginners play and see the results. I will bet everything I own that Stan's player wipes the floor with your player in all pool games.



I believe Stan did his on a Diamond. There is only one diamond in the UK as far as I know and that is Daz's in Barnsley. So that's out. Snooker is impossible, so how about English pool? Tiny pockets there, much more difficult than a Diamond.
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I told you the forum can judge the equipment and if they deem it to be as hard or harder than Stan's table then that's fine.

IIRC you threw out this as a challenge to anyone, with you rewarding them with $1000 for doing it. Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought this wasn't a bet. But now you're giving me just a week to do it, and I've got to bet? I've never used a system in my life, had never heard of them until joining this board, don't even know the diamond system. And you're proposing just a week to do this?

It'll take me longer than a week to get round to buying some curtains.

So, I'm a non-entity, a super super super nobody, I don't play, I'm not at your level but you're changing the terms of the original deal, just for little old me?

Awww. --Flattered--.
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That's right, those terms are all there. So get cracking. You won't do it we all know this to your blathering is about as meaningless as a mouse fart in the wind.

You can't do it and you don't know anyone who can who is not already well versed in system aiming. You will NOT find a feel player on the planet who can duplicate Stan's videos, that I am sure of.

And yes you're a super nobody.
 
In case there are those that dont read the ask instructors forum, here is a nice read http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=350215

Any system will work if you put in the effort, even the ultra Secert chicken bone toss.

Meaning practice. Quality practice and lots of it.

For some reason there are those that just can not accept that a ghost ball player can shoot better or rather just as good as a system user.

Feel for a shot is more important than aiming and getting that feel takes time and practice.

I harp on practice. Why, cause that's is what it takes to get really good. I feel those using systems just don't get this. It is practice, not the system that makes one good.

As for doing trick shots.....anyone one can do those with practice and yes Stan's shots are trick shots. The key is being able to do a shot you have never seen nor done before and do it on the first try and during a match. That's whats shooting is all about. Not shots you've practice hours and hours(which I'm sure all system users do). If you can not do this, you got a long way to go.

To be clear.....I am a ghost ball shooter and do quite well with it. But I practice a lot, more than most I know. Right now, it's only 15-20 hours a week but this is after two years of putting over 2,000 hours each year. So I know how to shoot, to the disbelief of those own here assume to know my level without ever playing me.

Here is how I've notice other players practice. Put 9 or balls on table.....start shooting. No practice structure at all. They miss a shot, they just keep going. And so on.

Me, I miss a shot, I practice that shot till I own it. Practice various banks for hours. Do speed control drills. Do stroke drills. Practice awkward shooting positions. Shooting one handed. Shooting using just the bridge, shot nothing but combos, caroms and so on.

In all those hours, I ve never seen anyone do this level of practice. One 3 cushion player calls me the Bank Master. Coming from a 3 cushion player means something.

Being really good in pool is not based on what system is used but the quality of the persons commitment to improve and this is shown in how they practice. It's that simple. There are players I wll not play because of how they practice. They talk a serious game but their play and practice tell a different story. I only play those that are is as serious about pool is I am. There ain't that many and one pocket is not serious pool counter to what a lot of people believe, so I won't plat that which does not leave many.

Since I'm on a roll, there have been times practicing 14.1, I have noticed players at the next table stop playing and watch me. Maybe it's seeing combos being done, or making the the next shot when there was no next shot because I bumped a ball out and so on. Kinda cool.

So, the short is systems are the least significant factor in getting really good at pool. Its practice.
 
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JB Cases said:
You are dense. No one on my side said it's exclusively one or the other.
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That is not the point. The POINT is which method IMPROVES the skills of the beginner the quickest. There no need for another level of deflection, so we'll leave this as something you're not comfortable with doing. Very wise.

JB Cases said:
I told you the forum can judge the equipment and if they deem it to be as hard or harder than Stan's table then that's fine.



That's right, those terms are all there. So get cracking. You won't do it we all know this to your blathering is about as meaningless as a mouse fart in the wind.

You can't do it and you don't know anyone who can who is not already well versed in system aiming. You will NOT find a feel player on the planet who can duplicate Stan's videos, that I am sure of.

And yes you're a super nobody.
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Ah, so you have changed the conditions. Gotcha.

What do you mean the forum can judge? You're throwing the bet, you judge. Can I or "my player" (which you said was ok in the previous post) do this on an English pool table or not?

And what is the task, exactly? I/he has to 1. make a ball in the side pocket, 2. bank a ball into the opposite side pocket, 3. a 3 rail bank (within two tries), all with much of the table covered by a curtain? Is that it?

I'm not playing again until next Tuesday, so it will have to wait until then. One week from tuesday 4 March. I'll make some calls to see who fancies it.
 
Why do my threads always lead to this... LOL

just kidding, I feel honored to have originated such an "involved" thread
 
duckie said:
In case there are those that dont read the ask instructors forum, here is a nice read http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=350215

Any system will work if you put in the effort, even the ultra Secert chicken bone toss.

Meaning practice. Quality practice and lots of it.

For some reason there are those that just can not accept that a ghost ball player can shoot better or rather just as good as a system user.

Feel for a shot is more important than aiming and getting that feel takes time and practice.

I harp on practice. Why, cause that's is what it takes to get really good. I feel those using systems just don't get this. It is practice, not the system that makes one good.

As for doing trick shots.....anyone one can do those with practice and yes Stan's shots are trick shots. The key is being able to do a shot you have never seen nor done before and do it on the first try and during a match. That's whats shooting is all about. Not shots you've practice hours and hours(which I'm sure all system users do). If you can not do this, you got a long way to go.

To be clear.....I am a ghost ball shooter and do quite well with it. But I practice a lot, more than most I know. Right now, it's only 15-20 hours a week but this is after two years of putting over 2,000 hours each year. So I know how to shoot, to the disbelief of those own here assume to know my level without ever playing me.

Here is how I've notice other players practice. Put 9 or balls on table.....start shooting. No practice structure at all. They miss a shot, they just keep going. And so on.

Me, I miss a shot, I practice that shot till I own it. Practice various banks for hours. Do speed control drills. Do stroke drills. Practice awkward shooting positions. Shooting one handed. Shooting using just the bridge, shot nothing but combos, caroms and so on.

In all those hours, I ve never seen anyone do this level of practice. tme. One 3 cushion player calls me the Bank Master. Coming from a 3 cushion payer means something.

Being really good in pool is not based on what system is used but the quality of the persons commitment to improve and this is shown in how they practice. It's that simple. There are players I wll not play because of how they practice. They talk a serious game but their play and practice tell a different story. I only play those that are is as serious about pool is I am. There ain't that many and one pocket is not serious pool counter to what a lot of people believe, so I won't plat that which does not leave many.

Since I'm on a roll, there have been times practicing 14.1, I have noticed players at the next table stop playing a watch me. Maybe it's seeing combos being done, or making the the next shot when there was no next shot because I bumped a ball out and so on. Kinda cool.

So, the short is systems are the least significant factor in getting really good at pool. Its practice.
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You could not be more wrong.

I spent an hour challenging Stan with shots trying to find one that he could not use CTE to solve. He put up shots I never shot before and if I didn't hit them on the first try then with the tiniest of adjustment for speed and spin I hit them within a few tries. These are shots for which there is ZERO ghost ball aiming - zero chance to use GB to figure them out.

I went to a pool room in Cambellsville Kentucky and played bank pool winning all four games making bank shots from places that looked almost impossible. Shots I had NEVER even tried in my life but decided to go for BECAUSE CTE/ProOne gave me the key to figure it out on the fly.

The other night I made two two rail zig zag shots back to back from awkward positions ONLY because I knew the CTE way to figure the shot.

I promise you that no matter what the shot is and ESPECIALLY with banks I can figure it out way way way way faster than you can.

If we had a contest with ten shots I would master them in a fraction of the time it would take you and some of them you would probably never master.

You think Stan's videos are all trick shots? Really? Then go master them. Should be easy for a dedicated guy like you to duplicate his shots if they are tricks. He puts up shot and shows the position then makes the object ball go into five holes with either one or two tries and lags it up to the hole three times on the last one (the hardest one).

Go for it.

Show us don't tell us.
 
TheThaiger said:
That is not the point. The POINT is which method IMPROVES the skills of the beginner the quickest. There no need for another level of deflection, so we'll leave this as something you're not comfortable with doing. Very wise.
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You do realize that you have said skills which is plural? Aiming is only ONE skill among many that a player needs. Your contention is that aiming doesn't even need to be discussed ever to become a good player. Ours is that aiming is more important than most people think it is among all the skills that are needed.



Ah, so you have changed the conditions. Gotcha.

What do you mean the forum can judge? You're throwing the bet, you judge. Can I or "my player" (which you said was ok in the previous post) do this on an English pool table or not?

And what is the task, exactly? I/he has to 1. make a ball in the side pocket, 2. bank a ball into the opposite side pocket, 3. a 3 rail bank (within two tries), all with much of the table covered by a curtain? Is that it?

I'm not playing again until next Tuesday, so it will have to wait until then. One week from tuesday 4 March. I'll make some calls to see who fancies it.
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Go for it. I put the two videos up which I want to see you duplicate. No need for me to repeat myself. Forget the curtain shots you have zero chance of duplicating those videos. I do have $100,000 to bet on that and I will fly to England with Stan and post it all in cash on stream for you to get any player you like to try it. Other than a student of Stan's that is. They can do it.

You can do it on any table you like. If the forum judges that the equipment was as difficult as Stan's then you get paid IF you equal or exceed Stan's video. I am pretty sure you won't be honest about the amount of tries IF you are able to do it but I bet it takes you quite a while. But I am betting more that you will not be able to do it nor find anyone who can without giving up after a few hours of trying.
 
JB Cases said:
You do realize that you have said skills which is plural? Aiming is only ONE skill among many that a player needs. Your contention is that aiming doesn't even need to be discussed ever to become a good player. Ours is that aiming is more important than most people think it is among all the skills that are needed.





Go for it. I put the two videos up which I want to see you duplicate. No need for me to repeat myself. Forget the curtain shots you have zero chance of duplicating those videos. I do have $100,000 to bet on that and I will fly to England with Stan and post it all in cash on stream for you to get any player you like to try it. Other than a student of Stan's that is. They can do it.

You can do it on any table you like. If the forum judges that the equipment was as difficult as Stan's then you get paid IF you equal or exceed Stan's video. I am pretty sure you won't be honest about the amount of tries IF you are able to do it but I bet it takes you quite a while. But I am betting more that you will not be able to do it nor find anyone who can without giving up after a few hours of trying.
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Where are the videos? Answer the question about the table - YOU, not the forum.

And your offer to come here with $100k...is that open to pros?
 
duckie said:
As for doing trick shots.....anyone one can do those with practice and yes Stan's shots are trick shots. The key is being able to do a shot you have never seen nor done before and do it on the first try and during a match. That's whats shooting is all about. Not shots you've practice hours and hours(which I'm sure all system users do). If you can not do this, you got a long way to go.
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Absolutely false. these are not trick shots or specific setups, they are shots made simply by applying CTE. The curtains only demonstrate that sight of the pocket is not used during alignment of the shot.

duckie said:
In all those hours, I ve never seen anyone do this level of practice. One 3 cushion player calls me the Bank Master. Coming from a 3 cushion player means something.
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I challenge thee bank master to a game of horse (edit: actually lets do bank pool, we don't want any setups right?), no curtains. I'm no bank master, but I can hold my own. I come to San Jose a couple times a year, we can meet up at your stomping ground (edgies) or wherever.
 
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TheThaiger said:
Where are the videos? Answer the question about the table - YOU, not the forum.

And your offer to come here with $100k...is that open to pros?
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The forum will judge. Complete the task first then let the forum see it.

Yes it's open to pros.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
 
mohrt said:
Absolutely false. these are not trick shots or specific setups,Wrong..most of the shots are fixed locations. they are shots made simply by applying CTE. The curtains only demonstrate that sight of the pocket is not used during alignment of the shot.Wrong again..Stan calls the pocket,there for he knows where it is.

I challenge thee bank master to a game of horse (edit: actually lets do bank pool, we don't want any setups right?), no curtains. I'm no bank master, but I can hold my own. I come to San Jose a couple times a year, we can meet up at your stomping ground (edgies) or wherever.
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Nice try.Everything is a learned hit.;)
 
8pack said:
Wrong..most of the shots are fixed locations.
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I'm sure Stan would be happy to let you setup the ball positions and he'll still shoot them down for you. This is not because he has practiced these specific shot positions over and over. This is plainly observable when he breaks and banks 12 in a row. He could not have possibly practiced those shots at all.

8pack said:
Stan calls the pocket,there for he knows where it is.
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Of course he knows what pocket he is headed for. Read my text again: The curtains only demonstrate that sight of the pocket is not used during alignment of the shot.

I know you just like to argue in circles 8pack, I'm done here.
 
mohrt said:
I'm sure Stan would be happy to let you setup the ball positions and he'll still shoot them down for you. This is not because he has practiced these specific shot positions over and over. This is plainly observable when he breaks and banks 12 in a row. He could not have possibly practiced those shots at all.



Of course he knows what pocket he is headed for. Read my text again: The curtains only demonstrate that sight of the pocket is not used during alignment of the shot.

I know you just like to argue in circles 8pack, I'm done here.
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Wrong again ,the pocket is always used for alignment. It's when you decide what line up it is. Rite? A. B. C. I don't like to argue either ...see ya .
 
8pack said:
Wrong again ,the pocket is always used for alignment. It's when you decide what line up it is. Rite? A. B. C. I don't like to argue either ...see ya .
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Nope. You fail to understand the material presented. The system connects the balls to the pockets and each possible shot has a certain aiming key which works. There are 8 combinations of visual perceptions and physical eye sweeps per cut direction. So one of those 8 will work for any shot or bank that is physically possible.

The good thing is that for any shot it's clear that you can immediately eliminate most of the perceptions and focus on just a few of which one is correct. In this manner you can shoot shots that you have never practiced and have an incredibly good chance to make them. There are literally a zillion possible shots on the table. No way that you can practice all of them for hours at a time.

If you know CTE however then you can practice those 8 combinations and then no matter what shot you are faced with you can unlock it. This includes all banks.

If you need an analogy then think of CTE like a codex used to decode encrypted messages. Without the codex you could spend a lifetime decrypting a message letter by letter, with it you can decode the message in minutes. Of course if you refuse to learn how to use the codex then you can do it the hard way.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Congratulations, you are now worse than Duckie.
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Worse at what? Its a big world my friend ,a lot a different views here and if you dont think I know what Im talking about....well you just could be rite.But dont put that label on the duck,he just mite be smarter than the both of us...put together.:smile:
 
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JB Cases said:
Nope. You fail to understand the material presented. The system connects the balls to the pockets and each possible shot has a certain aiming key which works. There are 8 combinations of visual perceptions and physical eye sweeps per cut direction. So one of those 8 will work for any shot or bank that is physically possible.

The good thing is that for any shot it's clear that you can immediately eliminate most of the perceptions and focus on just a few of which one is correct. In this manner you can shoot shots that you have never practiced and have an incredibly good chance to make them. There are literally a zillion possible shots on the table. No way that you can practice all of them for hours at a time.

If you know CTE however then you can practice those 8 combinations and then no matter what shot you are faced with you can unlock it. This includes all banks.

If you need an analogy then think of CTE like a codex used to decode encrypted messages. Without the codex you could spend a lifetime decrypting a message letter by letter, with it you can decode the message in minutes. Of course if you refuse to learn how to use the codex then you can do it the hard way.
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This is what Im talking about.The pocket gives you the rite perception.The pocket connects the balls,I guess you can look at it both ways but what only counts is hitting the pocket.You must know where the pocket is to start your alignment.Correct?
 
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8pack said:
This is what Im talking about.The pocket gives you the rite perception.The pocket connects the balls,I guess you can look at it both ways but what only counts is hitting the pocket.You must know where the pocket is to start your alignment.Correct?
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Only to know if it's a cut to the left or right. Also sorry to be a grammar nazi but rite is not a word. As Stan's curtain videos prove you do not need to see the pocket to line up on the right shot line.

I shoot a LOT of shots without looking at the pocket at all. Especially the backward cuts and banks.

The right perception comes from using one of the sighting lines not from the pocket.
 
JB Cases said:
Only to know if it's a cut to the left or right. Also sorry to be a grammar nazi but rite is not a word. As Stan's curtain videos prove you do not need to see the pocket to line up on the right shot line.I shoot a LOT of shots without looking at the pocket at all. Especially the backward cuts and banks.

The right perception comes from using one of the sighting lines not from the pocket.
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Well one of Stans videos shows him doing a straight in at a pocket then all of sudden he couldnt hit the same shot at a fake pocket.(how baffling )Like I said the pocket is needed.;) I mean, that is what he's saying, isnt it?

I actually created the word rite.It just didnt make sense to use the same right as in Im turning right as your right.Rite just sounds more appropiate.:grin: Btw Rite is a word.
 
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