APA Down East Rant

[PoloBob]

to the op ...welcome to reality. :grin:

what i mean is welcome to the real world when you higher level tournaments ...in no matter what amatuer league you play in.

when some people get close to reaching that pie in the sky all thoughts of sportsmanship.... fair play ....rules ....etc...etc...are thrown out the window. a guy you may have played 2 or 3 times during the year and was always polite and courteous every time will turn into an ass hole during the ltc's when a trip to vegas is on the line.

lets use me for example....i won't turn into an ass hole but i am all serious bussiness during ltc's.

during regular session....i will disregard an obvious foul from you.....never call for an observer when you shoot....unless you have a known reputation for not calling your fouls....never make you call or mark the pocket on an obvious shot on the 8.


heck i will even let you play over the 23 handicap to avoid you forfeiting a match.

come playoffs all that stuff is thrown out the window when i face you. its strictly by the book with me and i expect the same from you.

oh yea ...marc has his act together as far as i know. he owns the franchise here in memphis also and is here from time to time. jim badger is also an owner and is here full time. they are not perfect but they do a darn good job in my book. heck we have even played on the same team together.

lorider, I completely agree with you. It sounds like we share the same views in concerns of regular session play. For a few of the teams that are there to have a good time, we even have each team throw their names into a had and we'll draw to see what the matches are going to be.

Come anything other than regular session play, I expect the rules to be enforced properly and consistently.

I know all and well that people are going to make mistakes, there's no way around it. Refs are going to occasionally miss calls, players are going to dog easy outs, captains are going to make poor match-ups. All I want is for the rules to be enforced consistently and equally for all.

Take last year's LTC's for example. The opposing team called for an observer to watch a hit from one of my teammates. We paused and waited for the LM to come over and make the call. This gave me a few extra moments to consider calling a timeout. I could tell from where my shooter was lining up that she was probably going to commit a foul. I decide against burning our timeout bc of how early it was in the rack. The LM arrives, stands at the opposite end of the pool table, and tells the shooter to go ahead. He isn't in the best position to make the ruling, but the shot was very clear anyways. My player takes the shot and obviously commits a foul. After the cue ball stops rolling, the LM announces that she made a good hit. The LM then walks back to his designated area at the opposite end of the room. I tell the other team's scorekeeper to hold on for just a minute bc i needed to speak with my co-captain at the time. I tell him that I felt as if the shot was a foul and he agrees. I told their scorekeeper to ask their player to come to the scorer's table and as she did, I approached the pool table and touched the cue ball. I walked back to our area and told their team it was BIH.

Our player ended up winning that rack after she played a solid safety through the help of a coaching towards the end of the game. I was proud of myself for saving that timeout and even more proud of her for executing the shot as well as she did.

Getting ready to break, the LM comes over, stops the match, and announces to the tournament field that I was hit for sportsmanship. I asked him what for and he replied that I had argued with an official's call. I reminded him that I didnt say anything to him after he made the call and that I felt it was in poor taste to let my opponents be deceived.

 

[lorider]

lorider, I completely agree with you. It sounds like we share the same views in concerns of regular session play. For a few of the teams that are there to have a good time, we even have each team throw their names into a had and we'll draw to see what the matches are going to be.

Come anything other than regular session play, I expect the rules to be enforced properly and consistently.

I know all and well that people are going to make mistakes, there's no way around it. Refs are going to occasionally miss calls, players are going to dog easy outs, captains are going to make poor match-ups. All I want is for the rules to be enforced consistently and equally for all.

Take last year's LTC's for example. The opposing team called for an observer to watch a hit from one of my teammates. We paused and waited for the LM to come over and make the call. This gave me a few extra moments to consider calling a timeout. I could tell from where my shooter was lining up that she was probably going to commit a foul. I decide against burning our timeout bc of how early it was in the rack. The LM arrives, stands at the opposite end of the pool table, and tells the shooter to go ahead. He isn't in the best position to make the ruling, but the shot was very clear anyways. My player takes the shot and obviously commits a foul. After the cue ball stops rolling, the LM announces that she made a good hit. The LM then walks back to his designated area at the opposite end of the room. I tell the other team's scorekeeper to hold on for just a minute bc i needed to speak with my co-captain at the time. I tell him that I felt as if the shot was a foul and he agrees. I told their scorekeeper to ask their player to come to the scorer's table and as she did, I approached the pool table and touched the cue ball. I walked back to our area and told their team it was BIH.

Our player ended up winning that rack after she played a solid safety through the help of a coaching towards the end of the game. I was proud of myself for saving that timeout and even more proud of her for executing the shot as well as she did.

Getting ready to break, the LM comes over, stops the match, and announces to the tournament field that I was hit for sportsmanship. I asked him what for and he replied that I had argued with an official's call. I reminded him that I didnt say anything to him after he made the call and that I felt it was in poor taste to let my opponents be deceived.

i commend you for doing what you thought was right.....but i think you went about it the wrong way. btw i don't really know the correct way to handle this either.:grin:

any one correct me if i am wrong but i believe you cannot overturn an officials ruling. your actions by intentinally fouling in a match you were not directly involved in could be ruled as unsportsmanlike. your actions caused the lm ? to believe you were deliberatly trying to overturn his ruling which obviously pissed him off lol.

what is an lm ? we only have lo's and division reps here.

 

[Nullus]

there is a ring of truth to your post but at the same time i also think it is some what of an unfair statement when you look at the big picture.

its been stated apa has almost 225,000 members..i believe bcapl is the next largest with aprox. . 60,000 members. tap ....vnea ...and napa have even less. it stands to reason if apa is 4 times as large as bcapl you should hear of 4 times as many issues arising.

what i am saying is you are always going to have one bad apple in every bunch.

lets say for example each league has 1% of an undesirable element. that would mean bcapl has 60 players and apa has 2,200 players that are rule breakers, ass holes ...and nits ..and etc etc. that is not an unrealistic number and looking at it you would think apa has a disproportunate number but in reality the ratio is the same.

then you have some that cause problems in more than 1 league but the brunt of the fall out due to the actions of these players seems to fall on apa according to what i have read on here.

take a couple of years ago. a team was dis qualified at the apa nationals. the apa banned them... made steps to get their money back. fined and put on probation the lo's in that particular area but yet apa still got bashed on here.

mark griffin banned them from bcapl. sam at tap cuaght some flack on here for not banning them. later he banned them and then come on here bashing napa for allowing them to play in its league. i found that comical that he bashed napa for doing the same thing he did.

bottom line is all leagues have unscrulous players and lo's but it seems the quite a few love to jump on the bashing wagon when apa is mentioned but brush it under the rug when the same crap happens in their favorite league.

The only problem with your reasoning is the numbers. There are far more problems with APA than any other league out there, much less the good leagues. I will give it to APA though. From a business standpoint they have made a lot of good moves. Moving away from alcohol and tobacco sponsors over the years and trying to project a family atmosphere for their leagues, etc. It's just that it's smoke and mirrors. There is more fighting and problems in their league than any other and not just because of overall numbers. They just don't want it all made public. Their handicap system breeds cheaters BECAUSE of the lure of Vegas, that cheating creates anger among the players just trying to play honestly and enjoy the league as it's intended. It leads to fights. They cover them up and same thing with the few bad league operators they have. Do you really think they'll admit it? Of course not. They're a business, and a successful one at that. It doesn't make it any better of a league to play in though when there are better options out there.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I was informed that Player A, who made the threat, was in fact verbally warned by the LM and LO. Just wanted to clarify that little bit.

Members from my team and two other teams from the event have been trying to get in touch with the National office all day, but we end up having to leave messages. I encouraged them to also send an email asking what types of ID's were acceptable for HLTs.

My captain did sign his scoresheet after we lost in the semi-finals, but we also left a description in the "Message" area of what had happened, including that we were forced to play under protest.

Regarding the protest fee of $50, my LO said that bc we had wrote about the protest on the scoresheet that the National office would contact our captain and give him further direction.

This is the same LO that told you he spoke tothe national office on a Sunday? The same one that is kind of iffy on rulings anyway? Your LO will submit the names of the qualifers to the national office, it's not likely at all that St. Louis will ever even see your score sheet and on the off chance they do they will examine for signatures. If you guys continue to call you may reach someone, it's doubtful but you might, and then get your johnson stroked for a bit. If you get an email response you have a document in print to support your position and you also have the name of someone inside that building that may not want to talk to you, but is now a direct line of contact IF you can reach them. I really think at this point it would be to late to do anything about what happened they won't force a replay and they won't give you an at large bid to the NTC. The APA doesn't do that especially for something that happened on the local level. Your LO is either corrupt, which is not very likely, or is brain dead and found himself in an awkward situation and didn't want to lose face. He had to appear as though he had it under control so he made a difficult ruling that just happened to screw you and your team. To change that now would make him look bad. It is what it is and it's not fair, it's BS, but there is no instant replay in the APA. You guys probably won't even get a confidential mea culpa. Just breathe deep and enjoy your team drink, get 'em next time

 

[buckshotshoey]

The only problem with your reasoning is the numbers. There are far more problems with APA than any other league out there, much less the good leagues. I will give it to APA though. From a business standpoint they have made a lot of good moves. Moving away from alcohol and tobacco sponsors over the years and trying to project a family atmosphere for their leagues, etc. It's just that it's smoke and mirrors. There is more fighting and problems in their league than any other and not just because of overall numbers. They just don't want it all made public. Their handicap system breeds cheaters BECAUSE of the lure of Vegas, that cheating creates anger among the players just trying to play honestly and enjoy the league as it's intended. It leads to fights. They cover them up and same thing with the few bad league operators they have. Do you really think they'll admit it? Of course not. They're a business, and a successful one at that. It doesn't make it any better of a league to play in though when there are better options out there.

You are wrong on at least one point.The APA (Considering there is 250000 members) has fewer problems per player then any other league. They don't cover up anything. When our old LO had the franchise yanked, 3 people from St Louis came to our location and had a division meeting. They were very upfront and explained the action they were taking. I was at that meeting. They took a very proactive approach and I am satisfied they are doing a good job. Its the assholes that have no honor or scruples that screw it up for everybody. The problem with these individuals getting away with it is only one or two teams report the behaviour. EVERY team needs to report bad behaviour. If there is just one complaint, there just isn't a whole hell of a lot they can do. You are blaming the cat because the dog shit on the floor!

 

[lorider]

The only problem with your reasoning is the numbers. There are far more problems with APA than any other league out there, much less the good leagues. I will give it to APA though. From a business standpoint they have made a lot of good moves. Moving away from alcohol and tobacco sponsors over the years and trying to project a family atmosphere for their leagues, etc. It's just that it's smoke and mirrors. There is more fighting and problems in their league than any other and not just because of overall numbers. They just don't want it all made public. Their handicap system breeds cheaters BECAUSE of the lure of Vegas, that cheating creates anger among the players just trying to play honestly and enjoy the league as it's intended. It leads to fights. They cover them up and same thing with the few bad league operators they have. Do you really think they'll admit it? Of course not. They're a business, and a successful one at that. It doesn't make it any better of a league to play in though when there are better options out there.

i don't think my numbers are skewed at all.


what is the real issue here is that people are more vocal on here when apa is mentioned. i don't know if it is jealousy or what ?

what fighting ? i have never read a thread on this forum where fighting was involved with apa. not saying there have never been fights .

what i am saying is the crap you are mentioning goes on in every league.it just seems its a big issue on here when its apa involved and its always quiet as a mouse when the same crap is brought up on this forum concerning other leagues.

in this thread alone one poster said the same crap happens in vnea also. no one ...and i mean no one in this thread so far has even mentioned that post. its always just in the apa .

its no big deal when a poster starts a thread about a bcapl lo playing favorites yet 100 posts bashing apa if its mentioned an apa lo does the same thing.

its no big deal if some one posts on here about bcapl players dumping " funny how bcapl players dump but apa players sandbag ....whats the diff ? "

its no big deal if a bcapl lo gets caught at the nationals putting an unqualified player on his personal team at the bcapl nationals but yet you have 20 pages of bashing apa if a captain puts an unqualified player on his team at the apa nationals.

btw i think it is an entirely worse offence for an lo to do something unethical than a team captain. imo lo's should not be in a position where they have monetary gain at the nationals. apa prohibits this . wish other leagues did also.

i could go on but its not gonna change apa haters minds. i just wish people would accept the fact that apa is no better or no worse than any other league out there. they all have faults and they all have good people and unethical people playing in them.

 

[PoloBob]

League manager. His role is somewhere between the LO and Division Reps.

 

[lorider]

lorider...There have been a few instances of APA LO's losing their franchise, or being forced to sell to someone else. Most of them involved allegations of theft of league funds. You're correct, though, that it is rare overall for an LO to be forced out.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

we had an instance here about 8 years ago where the bcapl lo did not have the money at the end of the year to send a team to the nationals.

there was not an investigation that i know of. in fact i dont think bcapl home office got involved at all.

every one just quit and the league folded. there has not been a bcapl league here since. every one switched to apa and a local money league or in house leagues. napa has made a lil progress the last 2 years on apa foothold in this area.

 

[buckshotshoey]

i don't think my numbers are skewed at all.


what is the real issue here is that people are more vocal on here when apa is mentioned. i don't know if it is jealousy or what ?

what fighting ? i have never read a thread on this forum where fighting was involved with apa. not saying there have never been fights .

what i am saying is the crap you are mentioning goes on in every league.it just seems its a big issue on here when its apa involved and its always quiet as a mouse when the same crap is brought up on this forum concerning other leagues.

in this thread alone one poster said the same crap happens in vnea also. no one ...and i mean no one in this thread so far has even mentioned that post. its always just in the apa .

its no big deal when a poster starts a thread about a bcapl lo playing favorites yet 100 posts bashing apa if its mentioned an apa lo does the same thing.

its no big deal if some one posts on here about bcapl players dumping " funny how bcapl players dump but apa players sandbag ....whats the diff ? "

its no big deal if a bcapl lo gets caught at the nationals putting an unqualified player on his personal team at the bcapl nationals but yet you have 20 pages of bashing apa if a captain puts an unqualified player on his team at the apa nationals.

btw i think it is an entirely worse offence for an lo to do something unethical than a team captain. imo lo's should not be in a position where they have monetary gain at the nationals. apa prohibits this . wish other leagues did also.

i could go on but its not gonna change apa haters minds. i just wish people would accept the fact that apa is no better or no worse than any other league out there. they all have faults and they all have good people and unethical people playing in them.

I think I love you. lol!

 

[lorider]

I think I love you. lol!

oh shit i hope you are a hot cougar !!!! if not

 

[buckshotshoey]

oh shit i hope you are a hot cougar !!!! if not

Don't get any ideas....I'm a vagetarian!

 

[smenzel]

Great write-up. Bummer that your LO and LM don't sound like very upstanding people.

 

[APA Operator]

That's not what our LO said. He told us that Nationals would accept the business card as a valid ID and that he didnt need an APA card to participate bc they have all the players' information in their databases.

My jaw dropped. I was stunned.

I took a second, recollected myself, and asked the LO to cite in the rulebook the section that covers ineligible players, proper identification, and the like.

His response was "No."

I asked why he wouldn't show me exactly in the rules where that information was discussed and he replied that he had already taken the issue up with Nationals, they told him what to do, and he had gone as far with it as he was going to go and that was going to be the end of it or he would tag us with a sportsmanship violation.

Shocked at the news, my team's captain and co-captain each tried to reach the National office for the next hour and a half making calls while the other semi finals match was finishing up.

I asked our LM if there was anything that I could do and he said no that it was too late bc the match was already over. I reminded him that both him and the LO forced us to continue the match under protest.

We continued to call St. Louis just to try to get confirmation of the ruling at hand, but had no luck. Rings turned to voicemail after voice mail. It soon dawned on us that the National office is closed on Sundays.... Who did our LO speak with?

He spoke with whoever was manning the hotline that weekend. Even though the National office is closed on weekends, at LTC time they answer a hotline for League Operators. The hotline is basically a cell phone and they carry it around to make sure we can reach them for help if an issue arises in our tournaments.

Concerning the issue with the ID, my only concern would be whether the person who played is in fact the person on the roster. It sounds like your LO was satisfied that he is.

 

[buckshotshoey]

He spoke with whoever was manning the hotline that weekend. Even though the National office is closed on weekends, at LTC time they answer a hotline for League Operators. The hotline is basically a cell phone and they carry it around to make sure we can reach them for help if an issue arises in our tournaments.

Concerning the issue with the ID, my only concern would be whether the person who played is in fact the person on the roster. It sounds like your LO was satisfied that he is.

The fact still remains that NOBODY plays without apa card and state ID. Thats the rule. In a higher level tournament, even if 99 percent of the people in the room knew who he was, if someone asks for your ID, YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE IT! Of course I'm being extreme, but that is the rule. Almost everybody on my league knows who I am. But I carry mine with me for just that reason.....even on a regular league night. You can't even begin to argue with that.

 

[PoloBob]

He spoke with whoever was manning the hotline that weekend. Even though the National office is closed on weekends, at LTC time they answer a hotline for League Operators. The hotline is basically a cell phone and they carry it around to make sure we can reach them for help if an issue arises in our tournaments.

Concerning the issue with the ID, my only concern would be whether the person who played is in fact the person on the roster. It sounds like your LO was satisfied that he is.

The hotline is reasonable. If he did in fact get in touch with someone from the National office, that's great. I would be satisfied if he was able to contact a credible source regarding the matter. If he wasn't able to and said that he had, that's where I would have an issue.

About the player's ID... my concern wasn't with verifying someone's identity. The issue at hand was that a player didn't have the required documents to participate in the event, thus rendering him ineligible.

When the LO returned and said that the player's identity had been verified, I almost let my temper get the best of me. The question of who this player was had never been asked by my team, we just wanted him to furnish a valid ID and his APA card which is clearly stated that one must present in order to take part in the event.

I appreciate you shedding light to the fact that my LO may have contacted a hotline established solely for incidents as such. In the disappointment our loss combined with the daunting feeling that we were getting worked over, I never even considered that there may have been a hotline set up.

Thanks for the info.

 

[PoloBob]

The fact still remains that NOBODY plays without apa card and state ID. Thats the rule. In a higher level tournament, even if 99 percent of the people in the room knew who he was, if someone asks for your ID, YOU HAVE TO PRODUCE IT! Of course I'm being extreme, but that is the rule. Almost everybody on my league knows who I am. But I carry mine with me for just that reason.....even on a regular league night. You can't even begin to argue with that.

That sentiment was shared by nearly everyone in the building. It was more than discouraging to have something as black and white as that just swept under the rug, especially considering the circumstances.

 

[buckshotshoey]

And heres the kick to the groin.....It also says once match has been played and scorecards are signed, any options for protest are done and over with. Paraphrasing there a little but close.

 

[rmw]

Unless your local bylaws state differently, I do not know of any APA rule requiring that a player can not play without ID and APA card. The APA Team Manual calls it Verification of Identity - while you can ask for ID, your only recourse if it is not available is to play the match and file a protest. You can not hold up the match demanding they produce it. The intent is purely to verify identity, not to ensure that all players carry ID and APA cards. I would not want to see a known player be ineligible because they left their wallet at home. See below excerpt from the rules:

VERIFICATION OF IDENTITY
Your opponent has every right to request proof of identity from you and your teammates. Positive identification is a picture I.D., for example, a photograph on a valid driver’s license. If identification is not adequate, play the match and file a protest. Give your League Office plenty of time to settle the matter. The penalty for falsifying a player on your roster will be suspension and/or disqualification of each member of that team.

Edit - I stand corrected - I never read the rules for higher level tournaments - they do require State issued ID (thought not an APA card).

 

[justadub]

The only problem with your reasoning is the numbers. There are far more problems with APA than any other league out there, much less the good leagues. I will give it to APA though. From a business standpoint they have made a lot of good moves. Moving away from alcohol and tobacco sponsors over the years and trying to project a family atmosphere for their leagues, etc. It's just that it's smoke and mirrors. There is more fighting and problems in their league than any other and not just because of overall numbers. They just don't want it all made public. Their handicap system breeds cheaters BECAUSE of the lure of Vegas, that cheating creates anger among the players just trying to play honestly and enjoy the league as it's intended. It leads to fights. They cover them up and same thing with the few bad league operators they have. Do you really think they'll admit it? Of course not. They're a business, and a successful one at that. It doesn't make it any better of a league to play in though when there are better options out there.

You are very quick to paint with a very broad brush. What you are describing is NOT necessarily how it is everywhere. How can I say that? It doesn't apply here, that's why.

We have between 100-150 people here who play on and off, between 8-ball and 9-ball.

We have one or two players that can be considered disagreeable. A couple others that might be on the border on a given night.

We have no one that blatantly cheats, nor blatantly sandbags. I'm of the opinion that a couple are trying to pad their innings, which I find comical. No one here is more than one Skill Level away from their ability, from my eyes, and that of course can happen when the math doesn't cooperate.

My team is going to play in the Division Championship tonight, and the two teams will have a great time. Are there players on both teams that can flare up, given the right circumstances, sure. But it won't happen tonight.

APA will certainly have some bad apples, given the large number of people it has for members. Look at any, and I mean any organization. The larger the membership, the larger the number of problem cases. Years ago, my boys were in the Boy Scouts, all in all a tremendous organization. But the petty politics involved there gives the APA the 5... Look at your Fraternal Orders, like The Elks, The Eagles, etc. Same thing. They get together and do great things in their communities, but the infighting and politics and back stabbing is amazing.

Have fun, play pool. The APA gives me that opportunity here. I'm betting there are more territories like ours than like the OP's. I read that whole thing, and tried to see that occurring here, and I chuckle. Our LO doesn't do everything right, or make the right call every time, but he's right most of the time, and I trust him to try and make the right call. And I know he wouldn't tolerate any aggressiveness.

Good luck going forward, OP.

 

[ssbn610g]

He spoke with whoever was manning the hotline that weekend. Even though the National office is closed on weekends, at LTC time they answer a hotline for League Operators. The hotline is basically a cell phone and they carry it around to make sure we can reach them for help if an issue arises in our tournaments.

Concerning the issue with the ID, my only concern would be whether the person who played is in fact the person on the roster. It sounds like your LO was satisfied that he is.

So, why have rules if they are not going to be followed. If the rule says it is up to the discretion of the LO. Fine. Either you have rules and follow them or it becomes a complete mess and people will feel discriminated against. Why do I have follow rules when the LO doesn't?

Al