Fear of Feel

[336Robin]

Thanks Robin.

Can it be used as a double check with say factional overlap or a shadow method that one is basing their 'feel' or does one have to abandon all else & only use it?

Best,
Rick

PS When will the 2nd. book be out & I hope you don't mind me asking but why was a 2nd. book necessary?

Rick
The first book is on the core concept of the center ball aiming and the second book is on aiming with english. I have a very effective parallel aiming system that no else has in print any where. I am devoting a lot of thought and time into it. It's a concept not approached by aiming authors up to this point and is a separate skill from center ball aiming.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Contact point to contact point is not feel.

Here's where we disagree. Accepting that the OB contact point can be "seen" with considerable accuracy, what "visible" CB contact point do you align with it?

However, if you are fine tuning until it just looks right to you, then it is feel.

I think this describes the CP-to-CP alignment.

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

Hi Neil,

I'm glad you're well.

So if one adjusts, or fine tunes, their position in the upright stance until the line visually looks right, is that feel?

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

Depends on if you are using guesswork or objective aim points. If using objective aim points, such as 90/90, CTE, Equal/Opposite, SEE system, ect., then no. If just guessing and going on experience to what looks right for the ball to go, then yes.

 

[Neil]

Here's where we disagree. Accepting that the OB contact point can be "seen" with considerable accuracy, what "visible" CB contact point do you align with it?


I think this describes the CP-to-CP alignment.

pj
chgo

Once you find the contact point on the ob, you just go equal/opposite position on the cb and line them up.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick
The first book is on the core concept of the center ball aiming and the second book is on aiming with english. I have a very effective parallel aiming system that no else has in print any where. I am devoting a lot of thought and time into it. It's a concept not approached by aiming authors up to this point and is a separate skill from center ball aiming.

Thanks Robin.

I've been using 'parallel' english since I was 13 going on 14.

Can the concepts or method be used as a double check for other methods or must they be dropped to employ what you're putting forth?

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Once you find the contact point on the ob, you just go equal/opposite position on the cb and line them up.

You mean you "estimate" the equal/opposite position on the CB, right? And then you align it with the OB contact point by more "estimation", right? I mean, you never "see" both of them, right?

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Depends on if you are using guesswork or objective aim points. If using objective aim points, such as 90/90, CTE, Equal/Opposite, SEE system, ect., then no. If just guessing and going on experience to what looks right for the ball to go, then yes.

Neil,

Do you really think that anyone goes by 'feel' alone with no looking of any objective visuals of some sort?

Based on your answer, one might then conclude that there is no such thing as feel & ALL methods are objective.

Am I misunderstanding your answer?

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

 

[ronscuba]

My wife was born and raised in Japan. I am friends with and work with many people that english is their 2nd language. Word definitions and terminology can be tricky when explaining a method, theory or concept.

Looking at this thread and the last several posts, the same holds true for native english speakers too. There is not a consensus definition of feel or subconscious.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Rick:
...if one adjusts, or fine tunes, their position in the upright stance until the line visually looks right, is that feel?

Neil:
Depends on if you are using guesswork or objective aim points. If using objective aim points, such as 90/90, CTE, Equal/Opposite, SEE system, ect., then no.

Do you agree that "using objective aim points" (like with fractions) and using "feel" (to judge the "in between" angles) can be done together?

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

My wife is Japanese. I am friends with and work with many people that english is their 2nd language. Word definitions and terminology can be tricky when explaining a method, theory or concept.

Looking at this thread and the last several posts, the same holds true for native english speakers too. There is not a consensus definition of feel or subconscious.

Ron,

Perhaps it's due to some past history of mis-definitions of words & not just the loosely 'defined' ones like 'feel'.

Also text is not that easy for some that don't communicate so much in text vs. actual conversation where tone & inflection play such a large roll.

Also, since there have been so many misunderstandings here on AZB it is often best to clarify before moving on.

Best 2 you & All,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

to me the "good hard data " is the shot picture one gets from experience
to comment on posts from several others
since i dont know cte my suppositions could be way off base
there is no offence intended and im sure i will be corrected..
im not sure if the shot picture is the same as stan"s "visual objectivity " or not
i do think the "visual subjectivity" is the feel part (since sublective to me implies "intuiton" or feel
as for patricks question of the "fudge factor" when the shot is alittle thicker or thinner than the fractional aim points
i think is the feel of the shot picture learned for the angle involved telling you how much thinner or thicker
in ghost ball when lined up its your built in shot picture that tells you "it doesnt look right" and if you are smart you get back up and try to aliign correctly again
i think if we all try to be jedi's and go with the force
there will be no fear of feel..........:thumbup:
what i think aiming systems do is get people to find the contact point in a quicker way than pure experimentaion
just like kicking systems get you closer to where to aim on the rail to make the cue ball go the number of rails and end up where you want it to
then its a matter fine tuning it so you are right more often than wrong
sorry for the long winded and maybe alittle off topic post....
jmho
icbw

Hi Larry,

I think what you say here regarding 'shot picture' brings up another topic that I have not really seen discussed & that is what is one truly using to decide what parameters of a system or method to apply to a given shot.

I would think it would be a combination of one's natural ability to see an angle & then consciously decide that that angle is most closely associated to this parameter of this 'aiming' method.

Is that intuition, subjectivity... or 'feel'. Does it come from our conscious or subconscious mind?

Just because we realise something consciously does not mean that it did not come from our subconscious.

But we digress, I think.

Best 2 You & Shoot Well,
Rick

 

[336Robin]

Thanks Robin.

I've been using 'parallel' english since I was 13 going on 14.

Can the concepts or method be used as a double check for other methods or must they be dropped to employ what you're putting forth?

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

Rick,
The system takes you from perfect alignment and its reference is correct and its a perfect double check from any perspective. You don't have to unlearn anything. Just look at things a little differently and better.

The first book is related to the second and with some very important concepts that will expand what you do with anything else. Everything here is part of a concept that is consistent throughout the system that is important for the adjustment due to distance that I make in the 2nd book. Distance, allowances and stroke are very important into figuring allowances although things can be greatly simplified when you know what can be simplified and why.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,
The system takes you from perfect alignment and its reference is correct and its a perfect double check from any perspective. You don't have to unlearn anything. Just look at things a little differently and better.

The first book is related to the second and with some very important concepts that will expand what you do with anything else. Everything here is part of a concept that is consistent throughout the system that is important for the adjustment due to distance that I make in the 2nd book. Distance, allowances and stroke are very important into figuring allowances although things can be greatly simplified when you know what can be simplified and why.

Thanks Robin,

That sounds interesting. It sort of sounds like you may have combined or morphed intellect & feel together. I like that, as that is sort of how I would classify how I play.

I started at 13 & that was before I learned physics. I'm glad the 'play' came before the intellectual learning, but I'm glad that I have both.

I think I will be getting your book. That is unless my trip to the hall shows me that I don't need it at all & I doubt that that is going to happen.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS Best of Luck with the Book. If I really like it, I will certainly recommend it as I have been doing with Gene's Perfect Aim.

 

[ronscuba]

Ron,

Perhaps it's due to some past history of mis-definitions of words & not just the loosely 'defined' ones like 'feel'.

Also text is not that easy for some that don't communicate so much in text vs. actual conversation where tone & inflection play such a large roll.

Also, since there have been so many misunderstandings here on AZB it is often best to clarify before moving on.

Best 2 you & All,
Rick

Makes sense.

I'm a relatively new lower level player. Rated C+/C in NYC leagues and tournaments. Pocketing balls is my strength. My aim process happens very quickly. Reading people's posts, some would call what I do, feel or subconscious. I don't call it that, but that does not really matter. I don't want to debate definitions. I want to collect information, methods and experiment to see what works best for me.

I've always had good visualization skills, so that part of aiming came natural. Getting my eyes and various body parts into alignment is what made a big improvement.

 

[Neil]

You mean you "estimate" the equal/opposite position on the CB, right? And then you align it with the OB contact point by more "estimation", right? I mean, you never "see" both of them, right?

pj
chgo

Pat, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go to try and make a point that you think is in your favor?

Yes, there are no marks on the cb or ob saying "this is the equal/opposite line". Yes, they have to be estimated. However, that estimation can be very accurate. Accurate enough to be called objective. Is it "exact"? No. But, again, it all depends on how nitpicky one wants to get on exactness.

Does want to be exact enough to be within tolerances for the objective at hand, or is one wanting to go all the way down to the same number of atoms?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes, there are no marks on the cb or ob saying "this is the equal/opposite line". Yes, they have to be estimated. However, that estimation can be very accurate. Accurate enough to be called objective.

Then why can't any estimation be accurate enough to be called "objective"? What sets your favorite aiming systems apart?

pj
chgo

 

[Neil]

Neil,

Do you really think that anyone goes by 'feel' alone with no looking of any objective visuals of some sort?

Based on your answer, one might then conclude that there is no such thing as feel & ALL methods are objective.

Am I misunderstanding your answer?

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

Yes, you are totally misunderstanding. And, putting words in my mouth that I never said. Never even said anything close to that. Either you have a serious comprehension problem, or you are doing your best to try grasp at any straw you can to discredit certain statements again. Either way, so much for you previously stating that you really want things to stay civil.

You would serve yourself and the forums much better if you just stopped trying to nitpick each word, and tried to look at the whole picture.

 

[swest]

My observations of Ronnie is that he sweeps into his shots. I doubt very seriously he is sweeping into an adjustment position.

(emphasis added)

What does this signify to you?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Makes sense.

I'm a relatively new lower level player. Rated C+/C in NYC leagues and tournaments. Pocketing balls is my strength. My aim process happens very quickly. Reading people's posts, some would call what I do, feel or subconscious. I don't call it that, but that does not really matter. I don't want to debate definitions. I want to collect information, methods and experiment to see what works best for me.

I've always had good visualization skills, so that part of aiming came natural. Getting my eyes and various body parts into alignment is what made a big improvement.

Ron,

I hear you regarding real content. However, all we really have to communicate that real content is language.

Like when you say visualization skills. I'm not exactly sure that I 'know' what you mean.

For instance by that, do you mean you have good ability to interpret what you see & it's reality & the ability to not be deceived by optical illusions... or... do you mean that you can close your eyes & visualize say a shot from beginning to end including where to hit the CB so that it makes proper contact to get the OB to go into the pocket & actually visualize it falling onto the pocket?

I hope you see my point. I think we've had a good 'conversation' here.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[Neil]

Then why can't any estimation be accurate enough to be called "objective"? What sets your favorite aiming systems apart?

pj
chgo

I never said it couldn't. If you are using only objective things to find your aim. Fine. But, if you are only using objective things (such as 1/4 ball, 1/2 ball, center ball, ect.) as a rough line, then just going by feel from there until the shot just "looks right", you aren't being totally objective anymore. If you have to tweek from your objectives, you aren't using the available objectives to the best of their advantage.

You want your objectives to give you the aim line with no further adjustments. Any adjustments amount to feel. Now, there is nothing wrong with just using feel. Some players have become great doing just that. However, if you don't currently have that ability to be very consistent and accurate with feel, you might want to look into something that is more objective that will give you that accuracy and consistency.