Fear of Feel

Neil said:
I look at "feel" in aiming as using your subconscious from past experience to tell you when the shot looks or feels right. You aren't going by any objective aiming points, but relying on past experience to tell you if you are aimed to thin or to full. Basically, it's an educated guess
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If one uses objective aiming guides like fractions, is feel used to decide when the "in between" shots are on?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If one uses objective aiming guides like fractions, is feel used to decide when the "in between" shots are on?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Answering for myself, not Neil.

Using the definition of feel as subconscious information based on past experience, without having any concrete visualization or thought process.

No, I don't use feel to decide in between shots. If I start with a half ball hit, then slightly adjust, I am visualizing the required CB/OB collision required to make the shot. I might adjust slightly thicker or thinner, but I am visualizing an exact collision and establishing a exact line the CB will roll on.

It is possible that people very experienced go through their aiming process so fast, it seems like subconscious feel. However, if they were to slow down their decision process and accurately describe step by step what they are thinking, it might resemble a specific concrete aiming method or system.

I am a technical analytical thinker. As part of my work, I often have to break down and explain processes step by step to less experience employees. As they become more experienced, those processes happen so quickly you could say it's subconscious, but IMHO, it's not. The detailed step by step thought process is just happening very fast because of past experience.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
If one uses objective aiming guides like fractions, is feel used to decide when the "in between" shots are on?

pj
chgo
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You know the answer to that so what are you fishing for?

There is no doubt in my mind you use feel when you aim because you have to.

Your aiming system consists of 3 aiming systems:

"I initially line up with my stick pointing CB center to ghost ball center, but I've never actually aimed (got to the final alignment) using any method but contact point-to-contact point "feel" learned through practice and memorization (aided by conscious comparison of where I'm pointing my stick)."

Ghost ball Center - Visual Subjectivity Ghost ball doesn't exist nor the GB center.

Contact point to contact point - OB contact point easy to identify and see - Visual Objectivity.

CB contact point - impossible to see on front of CB, guesswork - Visual Subjectivity

Stick Aiming - what part of stick? Aiming stick to WHAT? - Visual Subjectivity

Feel - more guesswork and last second cue manipulation but absolutely required
to attempt bringing all the previous visual subjectivity together. Visual Subjectivity.
 
336Robin said:
Absolutely! I speak for myself and my System. Being able to control the feel was the primary reason I have written what I have.

I felt it was important that something be written down somewhere that represented the feel side of the story.

When I started working on anything that that had to do with pool I used to get a real kick out of asking people how they aim. Some of the answers you wouldn't believe and at least one fellow is still telling me after several years.

Its about this clear:

"You just take the stick and you hit the thing and you put the thing where the thing is supposed to go and that's about as plain as it gets."

Playing by feel should be a little easier to describe than the above explanation but anything other that what was said above.... is a system.

If your system is a way to learn all of the shots and hone your feel then it works for you because its very clear in this game. You cannot play it well unless you can also learn to spin the ball.

Without that piece feel is not had.

Up until now I would say that "hamb" has been completely true for feel players in fact it might even be more than a million balls.

The problem with hamb is that people lose patience with it and want to get down the road to skillful play sooner and that is understandable so any way they can figure out how to do it is a good thing.

That is the one thing that I want to be able to do. I want to get the player enjoying the game and I want to direct him on how to find "the feel" of the game because when you find it, all things become possible and your game can open up and you find the beauty inside it.

Pool is the greatest interactive game ever created in my opinion but there is some contention about how to make it easier to play and I really don't want to feed that contention and I will try not to but this subject is the very thing that I have sought to bring to light and I fully believe that I have and I will by the time all of its done.

As in all things something has a beginning and my first book is that beginning and a new perspective from which progress to feel is easier in my opinion. The next book is specific direction and expansion that focuses directly on the category of spin and feel.

Its original material and its copyrighted. It's free to purchase and to use but not to reproduce or use in any other way.

No mysteries exist in it and you wont have any problem understanding the concepts and the continuation of it as its written as I explain it from a behind the cue ball perspective.

The shot making is only one part.

The feel is quite another and that is where the true mysteries of the game are opened and the real game comes out and the depth of your feel and knowledge of the moves are the game and are the difference in truly good players and who is favored to win.

Well, that's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Good post Robin.

Is there a review or summary of your book & how long is it page wise?
 
If one uses objective aiming guides like fractions, is feel used to decide when the "in between" shots are on?

pj
chgo
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Sure, that is a major reason why a true fraction system is weak and quite amateurish.

Lots of feel, guesswork, steering.....

Stan Shuffett
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OK, so you agree that you can use "objective aiming guides" and "feel" in the same aiming method.

What makes fractions "objective" and "feel" not objective?

pj
chgo
 
I thought I would try to contribute a neutral polite point of view and reply, but like so many other aiming threads, my post is getting buried by argumentative and negative posts between members with bad history.

I have to remind myself, why I decided to stay out of aiming threads.
 
Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stuart Bingham have both mentioned they use fractions and fill in the in between gaps. Does that make them amateurish?
 
Patrick Johnson said:
OK, so you agree that you can use "objective aiming guides" and "feel" in the same aiming method.

What makes fractions "objective" and "feel" not objective?

pj
chgo
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A true fractional system frequently leads to adjustments, for example, a "tweener" that can occur between ones objective visual knowledge for a half ball and 3/4 ball visual. The tweeter is adjusted to by feel and experience.

Nothing like that even remotely occurs in REAL CTE.

Stan Shuffett
 
ENGLISH! said:
I sort of interpret 'feel' to be the subconscious decision based on the huge data base from which it has to pull that tells our conscious self, yes or no.

So...to me, 'feel', our subconscious, needs good hard 'data' from which to base its decision to tell us yes or no.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
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to me the "good hard data " is the shot picture one gets from experience
to comment on posts from several others
since i dont know cte my suppositions could be way off base
there is no offence intended and im sure i will be corrected..:)
im not sure if the shot picture is the same as stan"s "visual objectivity " or not
i do think the "visual subjectivity" is the feel part (since sublective to me implies "intuiton" or feel
as for patricks question of the "fudge factor" when the shot is alittle thicker or thinner than the fractional aim points
i think is the feel of the shot picture learned for the angle involved telling you how much thinner or thicker
in ghost ball when lined up its your built in shot picture that tells you "it doesnt look right" and if you are smart you get back up and try to aliign correctly again
i think if we all try to be jedi's and go with the force
there will be no fear of feel..........:thumbup:
what i think aiming systems do is get people to find the contact point in a quicker way than pure experimentaion
just like kicking systems get you closer to where to aim on the rail to make the cue ball go the number of rails and end up where you want it to
then its a matter fine tuning it so you are right more often than wrong
sorry for the long winded and maybe alittle off topic post....:o
jmho
icbw
 
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Pidge said:
Ronnie O'Sullivan and Stuart Bingham have both mentioned they use fractions and fill in the in between gaps. Does that make them amateurish?
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I do not for 1 second think that they use the quarters system as taught in the classic sense.
NO WAY! a bit more than Allison Fisher does.

Stan Shuffett
 
ronscuba said:
My definition of feel follows what Neil wrote and is in my posted reply above.



" I look at "feel" in aiming as using your subconscious from past experience to tell you when the shot looks or feels right. You aren't going by any objective aiming points, but relying on past experience to tell you if you are aimed to thin or to full. Basically, it's an educated guess. Which is exactly how most use english when aiming.
This is my definition of feel as well. I don't aim with feel.

I use english by initially establishing my aim to sink the ball w/o english. Then I adjust for english with feel. But my initial aim uses visualization or perception of objective points. "


Not saying my definition is correct, it's just how I interpret and use the word. Reading the posts in this thread, people are using the word differently and that could be part of the disagreement.
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Hi Ron,

I tend to agree that at times some are saying the same thing or nearly the same thing in different words, vernacular, & then arguing about it.

Lack of any communication, lack of true communication & miscommunication, are very probably the largest problems in the world.

Would you not agree that the subconscious needs real info to make it's determination?

Is it not a meeting of the minds, conscious & subconscious that allows one to pull the trigger?

Would you agree that the subconscious mind needs real hard input from which to search it's files for a match?

Would it then not tell the conscious mind, 'No, no match there or Yes that's it. (Hit it before you overrule me.)?

I think you're correct that the term 'feel' means different things to different people & that is why I suggested that Patrick should perhaps define what he means by 'feel'.

I also think many have different understandings regarding the subconscious. That may indeed be the most misunderstood.

Sorry for the interrogative style of so many questions. I think I meant them more in a rhetorical manner than actually to you.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Good post Robin.

Is there a review or summary of your book & how long is it page wise?
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Rick
It's 36 pages of system specific information that I found very strong...it's captivating to use....and lends to feel very well that I go into deep detail in the second book.Its a new perspective original material that utilizes accepted terms and practices that puts you on correct alignment for the shot by use of a reference system that is the same for all shots enabling easy learning.
 
stan shuffett said:
I do not for 1 second think that they use the quarters system as taught in the classic sense.
NO WAY! a bit more than Allison Fisher does.

Stan Shuffett
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From what I understand Stuart finds the overlap closest to the shot angle. He will refer to a shot as a thick quarter ball pot, a thin 3/4 ball pot and so on. He stands behind the closest overlap then decides if its thinner or thicker and gets down and pockets the ball. Very much how I do. Ronnie does it similar but picks out the BoB aim point and gets down. It requires a lot of guesswork and feel, or as I call it, potting experience but either way, it isn't amateurish in the slightest.
 
336Robin said:
Rick
It's 36 pages of system specific information that I found very strong...it's captivating to use....and lends to feel very well that I go into deep detail in the second book.Its a new perspective original material that utilizes accepted terms and practices that puts you on correct alignment for the shot by use of a reference system that is the same for all shots enabling easy learning.
Click to expand...

Thanks Robin.

Can it be used as a double check with say factional overlap or a shadow method that one is basing their 'feel' or does one have to abandon all else & only use it?

Best,
Rick

PS When will the 2nd. book be out & I hope you don't mind me asking but why was a 2nd. book necessary?
 
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ronscuba said:
Answering for myself, not Neil.

Using the definition of feel as subconscious information based on past experience, without having any concrete visualization or thought process.

No, I don't use feel to decide in between shots. If I start with a half ball hit, then slightly adjust, I am visualizing the required CB/OB collision required to make the shot. I might adjust slightly thicker or thinner, but I am visualizing an exact collision and establishing a exact line the CB will roll on.

It is possible that people very experienced go through their aiming process so fast, it seems like subconscious feel. However, if they were to slow down their decision process and accurately describe step by step what they are thinking, it might resemble a specific concrete aiming method or system.

I am a technical analytical thinker. As part of my work, I often have to break down and explain processes step by step to less experience employees. As they become more experienced, those processes happen so quickly you could say it's subconscious, but IMHO, it's not. The detailed step by step thought process is just happening very fast because of past experience.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are using fractions for your initial set up, then switching to contact point to contact point to fine tune your aim. Contact point to contact point is not feel.

However, if you are fine tuning until it just looks right to you, then it is feel.
 
Pidge said:
From what I understand Stuart finds the overlap closest to the shot angle. He will refer to a shot as a thick quarter ball pot, a thin 3/4 ball pot and so on. He stands behind the closest overlap then decides if its thinner or thicker and gets down and pockets the ball. Very much how I do. Ronnie does it similar but picks out the BoB aim point and gets down. It requires a lot of guesswork and feel, or as I call it, potting experience but either way, it isn't amateurish in the slightest.
Click to expand...

My observations of Ronnie is that he sweeps into his shots. I doubt very seriously he is sweeping into an adjustment position.

Anyway, it would be worth a lot to me to have some 1st hand experiences with Ronnie, who may be the top cueist in the world. I would to love hear his thoughts and observe his technique.

Stan Shuffett
 
stan shuffett said:
My observations of Ronnie is that he sweeps into his shots. I doubt very seriously he is sweeping into an adjustment position.

Anyway, it would be worth a lot to me to have some 1st hand experiences with Ronnie, who may be the top cueist in the world. I would to love hear his thoughts and observe his technique.

Stan Shuffett
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You will notice a lot of top snooker players sweep in left to right. Its how they hold their cue. They hold it across the waist so have no choice but to sweep. However this is how he aims. I'm sure he doesn't aim anymore and just gets on with it. But this is how he has described it when asked. What do you mean by adjustment position? Getting down then adjusting? He doesn't do that. He gets down and as his bridge is placed the cue is on the line of aim and doesn't get adjusted. All I can go by is his word, and his word said he uses fractions.
 
Neil said:
Sounds like you are using fractions for your initial set up, then switching to contact point to contact point to fine tune your aim. Contact point to contact point is not feel.

However, if you are fine tuning until it just looks right to you, then it is feel.
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Hi Neil,

I'm glad you're well.

So if one adjusts, or fine tunes, their position in the upright stance until the line visually looks right, is that feel?

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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