Are Modern Day Pool and Snooker Elites or Modern Day Pro Golfers Using Feel?
- Thread starter DTL
- Start date
At First Impression
DTL,
I think that peoples natural curiosity about a game, any game leads them to want to play and then at some point in the fun, it would be more fun if they were able to do it better so: You see developments of habits like preshot routine, stroke routine, even they way they walk up on shot and this is probably true for golf. Because they are trying to figure out where to tweak their game to get better. With pool since its in a confined space on a table they get to think: How do I hit this ball to make the pocket?
In golf maybe they think how do I play this shot since I slice to the right to hit the center of the green? How far down the course will my slice break to the right? and can I get the ball to my ideal chipping distance?
Some of those pool players you mentioned have certain things they do that breed consistency but I don't find any of them boring to watch in fact its a learning exercise in pre shot routine and we all have a slightly different one.
I have a PSR and a way I like to walk into shot but I have no set amount of strokes because I wait until know I have my shot visually dialed in so its unlikely that I will ever stroke a shot the same amount of times. At some point feel is there, it can't help but be.
Now we have Racking as an area of the game to contend with. Should we adopt the Magic Rack, argue over it or go to a rack where there are no frozen balls and then the skill becomes how you read the rack? and learn to break it with gaps everywhere?
For the naked eye to see, the difference in some of those players you mentioned is more a difference in whether or not you admire consistency in your game.
To admonish one type of player in your list over another I would find that hard to do except I tend to admire a personable player, who plays well and sells his brand to the public well because that helps the sport overall.
If you want feel back in the game for good go to 7 second shot clock and put a glass of Crown Royal on side table and every time a player loses he has to take 2 shots.
DTL,
I think that peoples natural curiosity about a game, any game leads them to want to play and then at some point in the fun, it would be more fun if they were able to do it better so: You see developments of habits like preshot routine, stroke routine, even they way they walk up on shot and this is probably true for golf. Because they are trying to figure out where to tweak their game to get better. With pool since its in a confined space on a table they get to think: How do I hit this ball to make the pocket?
In golf maybe they think how do I play this shot since I slice to the right to hit the center of the green? How far down the course will my slice break to the right? and can I get the ball to my ideal chipping distance?
Some of those pool players you mentioned have certain things they do that breed consistency but I don't find any of them boring to watch in fact its a learning exercise in pre shot routine and we all have a slightly different one.
I have a PSR and a way I like to walk into shot but I have no set amount of strokes because I wait until know I have my shot visually dialed in so its unlikely that I will ever stroke a shot the same amount of times. At some point feel is there, it can't help but be.
Now we have Racking as an area of the game to contend with. Should we adopt the Magic Rack, argue over it or go to a rack where there are no frozen balls and then the skill becomes how you read the rack? and learn to break it with gaps everywhere?
For the naked eye to see, the difference in some of those players you mentioned is more a difference in whether or not you admire consistency in your game.
To admonish one type of player in your list over another I would find that hard to do except I tend to admire a personable player, who plays well and sells his brand to the public well because that helps the sport overall.
If you want feel back in the game for good go to 7 second shot clock and put a glass of Crown Royal on side table and every time a player loses he has to take 2 shots.
Great Players!
DTL,
I look at that list as you have mentioned before who is a feel player, who isnt and to me honestly I as a spectator really only see one thing.
Who is a great player?
Every single name on that list are great players no matter if they have some standardization about how they do what they do, how they might or might not aim shots.
I really don't think that Shanes use of the ferrule as an aiming guide takes anything away from his game or that someones use to CTE, or my system or anything else for that matter.
As I mentioned earlier about what I said as the ridiculous nature of some of the previous argument about feel as if:
Its impossible for a person who has any method whatsoever to be considered a feel player, and it would somehow be some sort of a deification of people who are feel players when all of is are feel players.
How ever it happened it happened but Stan and a few of his CTE friends have left the Aiming Forum over it and now we are dividing up the rest that is left into grade of feel. So I would guess that would leave about 4 or so common posters to this forum and a few more that come in an out that are the purists of the the pure feel players.
What really does it matter?
To me there is only a few things that matter feel or not.
Do you enjoy the game? Do you love the game? Do you represent the game well?
Those are the main three things in my opinion about what matters.
Of other importance to me in what I would like to see happen in the sport are:
Can you use your method of doing things not matter what it is to attract new players?
If the room owner does not figure out a way to market to the public its his ass in the sling. To me that is the Number 1 thing wrong with Pool. Its the absence of being able to attract New People into the sport. Sure Pool League play is up across the US so why are Rooms Closing? The answer to that is that Pool League Players while they do buy cues and cases really dont spend as much money at the Pool Room as regular customers or....even though their numbers are up, the numbers arent enough to turn the tide for Room Owners and Room Owners should try and cultivate ways to make money outside of League Systems that want to play for free and leave them little.
I am not against League Play but the facts are the facts. League players do spend money but I dont see many of them practicing so they play once a week a lot of them.
To me the division amongst Pool Players should be limited to.
Areas of greatness.
If you method of doing things isnt doing it for you and you are finding a hard time getting better then it should be the decision of the player as to what course of action to take to get better. As long as that happens...whoop te do as to how you go about making it happen. I could personally care less as I watch you play if you are a CTE player, 90/90 player, Shishkabob, Samsa, if you go by the light reflections on the balls TOI or use the edge of the ferrule to tell you what to do.
What matters to me is whether or not I get a shot and if I can turn my situation around and be the victor.
Pool is measured in greatness all the drivel in the world about Purity of Feel isn't going to take a tournament prize away from one and give to another.
Everything we focus on in pool should be result oriented with Greatness being the only barometer.
Sorry for the rant, just how I feel.
DTL,
I look at that list as you have mentioned before who is a feel player, who isnt and to me honestly I as a spectator really only see one thing.
Who is a great player?
Every single name on that list are great players no matter if they have some standardization about how they do what they do, how they might or might not aim shots.
I really don't think that Shanes use of the ferrule as an aiming guide takes anything away from his game or that someones use to CTE, or my system or anything else for that matter.
As I mentioned earlier about what I said as the ridiculous nature of some of the previous argument about feel as if:
Its impossible for a person who has any method whatsoever to be considered a feel player, and it would somehow be some sort of a deification of people who are feel players when all of is are feel players.
How ever it happened it happened but Stan and a few of his CTE friends have left the Aiming Forum over it and now we are dividing up the rest that is left into grade of feel. So I would guess that would leave about 4 or so common posters to this forum and a few more that come in an out that are the purists of the the pure feel players.
What really does it matter?
To me there is only a few things that matter feel or not.
Do you enjoy the game? Do you love the game? Do you represent the game well?
Those are the main three things in my opinion about what matters.
Of other importance to me in what I would like to see happen in the sport are:
Can you use your method of doing things not matter what it is to attract new players?
If the room owner does not figure out a way to market to the public its his ass in the sling. To me that is the Number 1 thing wrong with Pool. Its the absence of being able to attract New People into the sport. Sure Pool League play is up across the US so why are Rooms Closing? The answer to that is that Pool League Players while they do buy cues and cases really dont spend as much money at the Pool Room as regular customers or....even though their numbers are up, the numbers arent enough to turn the tide for Room Owners and Room Owners should try and cultivate ways to make money outside of League Systems that want to play for free and leave them little.
I am not against League Play but the facts are the facts. League players do spend money but I dont see many of them practicing so they play once a week a lot of them.
To me the division amongst Pool Players should be limited to.
Areas of greatness.
If you method of doing things isnt doing it for you and you are finding a hard time getting better then it should be the decision of the player as to what course of action to take to get better. As long as that happens...whoop te do as to how you go about making it happen. I could personally care less as I watch you play if you are a CTE player, 90/90 player, Shishkabob, Samsa, if you go by the light reflections on the balls TOI or use the edge of the ferrule to tell you what to do.
What matters to me is whether or not I get a shot and if I can turn my situation around and be the victor.
Pool is measured in greatness all the drivel in the world about Purity of Feel isn't going to take a tournament prize away from one and give to another.
Everything we focus on in pool should be result oriented with Greatness being the only barometer.
Sorry for the rant, just how I feel.
1) Is feel overated? I dont think so... I think it is an essential element.
2) Can a purely feel player even compete these days? That depends on what you call purely feel. Shane has said that aiming to him now days is pretty much automatic...is that feel? Another example of why you need to define purely feel is imo the main debate here is how people aim so is it fair to point out Buddy's consistant, learned, pre shot routine "system" and label him as a system player when the systems we are really discussing here are aiming systems.
× A side note × I learned a lot from Gary Bright who was a long time road partner of Buddy Halls and he spoke of Buddy and taught his systems quite often. He spoke of his psr, he spoke of his clock system, he spoke of his strategic theories, his use of gearing english etc. Not once did he ever mention an aiming system. Lining up was done visualizing a ghost ball to see the line.
3) Are purely feel players becoming a thing of the past? By purely feel I will assume you mean fast and loose since you used that term earlier and it is obvious that they dont have time to calculate much in the way of aiming ,speed needed, and where to cue. Some that come to mind would be Jesse Bowman, Tony Watson, Chip Compton. That style and rythem is still around.
4) One final question. A byproduct of the fundamentally very sound, methodical/mechanical player is that it has produced many "cookie cutter" type players. Is this a detriment to the game? (My answer....I think so, in a way. Who would you rather see play on TV, an Earl type player or a robotic type player?).
Lots of people will always like the style of Kieth or Jesse Bowman... the guys who make it look effortless. But Buddy and Shane had lots of fans too. The trick in my opinion is to stir up emotions in the fans.
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Thats a very true statement. I was playing One Pocket the Sunday Jeff Gordon and some other idiot got in a fight on the TV after a Nascar Race. My one pocket match was interrupted by Racing. My friend was all torn up over the race, this little thing and that little thing which amounted up to drama...people love some drama.
That goes all the way back to the Colliseum in Greece.
Little has changed about the nature of people. One of the things I think should be standard in Pool is the King of the Hill table on Friday nights! Line up and duke it out!
Drama is good no doubt. But like take Shane for instance... people are emotionally attached to him and its not because of the drama. What Im saying is imo there ade multiple ways to create emotions and emotional attachment... but yeah drama is way underutilized in pool promotion. Not long ago I had some fun creating zome emotions in some Shane fans. I mini-promoted a Shane Darren rivalry. Rivalries in sports are good imo. I can tell you one thing. I believe there are a few Shane fans on here who will be even more emotionally attached the next time Shane and Darren play simply from our debates. Now imagine if that rivalry was promoted on a large scale with Europeans and Americans getting deeply involved. It could happen imo but the pool media imo is more concerned with attaching the stand alone, above all others, greatest ever image to Shane and they are missing an opportunity to promote imo.
Promotion and Drama
I see your point absolutely. I see Promotion being something that should be done on a local level.
How many pool rooms really have a place to sit and watch players play? Few if any.
Lets just say the Pool Room you go to had an email list which is simple to get together and lets just say...it was two well known local players....Bill and Ben they decide to square off something cheap but its drama filled...A race to 25 for a couple of hundred....you could even have sponsors etc. You could even have like I suggested if you lose a game you have to drink a beer, take a shot etc.
It elevates the game to be......Something Special.....and damnit pool is special. Its a great game! Its supposed to be Social where people get together and play and there is drama, something to talk about, something to make friendships over.
It would seem that the only time we focus on the Social aspect of pool is when we get together to play and a lot of people just dont do the tournament scene...because a lot of the players are getting older and really dont get down for 2 matches and go home.
I could care less about a tournament, but if you say lets have a long set for several hours...now you have my attention.
If someone had a place to showcase pool I would step up and challenge no problem. It would be a blast and it would be social and a lot of fun to play and watch. People could stream it. They could record it and put it up on YouTube all kinds of things become possible.
Surely Sandcastle isnt the only place on the East Coast where there is a place to watch a match?
I see your point absolutely. I see Promotion being something that should be done on a local level.
How many pool rooms really have a place to sit and watch players play? Few if any.
Lets just say the Pool Room you go to had an email list which is simple to get together and lets just say...it was two well known local players....Bill and Ben they decide to square off something cheap but its drama filled...A race to 25 for a couple of hundred....you could even have sponsors etc. You could even have like I suggested if you lose a game you have to drink a beer, take a shot etc.
It elevates the game to be......Something Special.....and damnit pool is special. Its a great game! Its supposed to be Social where people get together and play and there is drama, something to talk about, something to make friendships over.
It would seem that the only time we focus on the Social aspect of pool is when we get together to play and a lot of people just dont do the tournament scene...because a lot of the players are getting older and really dont get down for 2 matches and go home.
I could care less about a tournament, but if you say lets have a long set for several hours...now you have my attention.
If someone had a place to showcase pool I would step up and challenge no problem. It would be a blast and it would be social and a lot of fun to play and watch. People could stream it. They could record it and put it up on YouTube all kinds of things become possible.
Surely Sandcastle isnt the only place on the East Coast where there is a place to watch a match?
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I think mechanical/methodical players use feel just as much as fast/loose players - their methods don't reduce feel; they just organize (and sometimes obscure) it.
I agree there's a difference between the two kinds of play; I just don't think the difference is the amount of feel involved.
pj
chgo
The following is just my take & are simply my thoughts & opinions.
In other words, IMO:
Two of the greatest ball strikers in golf, Ben Hogan & Lee Trevino. Two totally different individuals with two totally different approaches. Both great golfers.
Tiger Woods changed his swing(method) almost immediately after his first Masters win when he basically dominated & blew away the field because he knew that the feel & timing for that kind of performance would be fleeting to maintain & to be consistent. He also knew that that kind of performance would not be needed on most occasions to defeat his 'competition'.
He has now gone to a very contrived method as a means to protect parts of his injured body & that has infiltrated into his short game where he has basically lost all of his feel. He may get back his feel in time with the new method.
Can a contrived method reach the upper level of feel when feel is at its best?
Can a contrived method reach the lower level of feel when feel is all but void?
Can any method work without some aspect of feel involved?
Can feel work without some form of 'method' from which to base itself.
The possibility of the rare highest level of greatness or the more consistent repeatable level of very good consistent play?
The word 'pure' has been used but it is probably balance that is best as it most often is in all aspects of life. I doubt that anyone plays with nothing but 'pure' feel just as I seriously doubt than anyone plays 'purely' void of any feel.
There is more to success than just how one plays. There is what is in the individual. Desire, Determination, Will, Sacrifice, Singleness of Purpose, 'Heart'. Or...the lack thereof.
Can a young individual make an 'intelligent' decision as to whether or not they will be better off playing with a prescribed method or be better off playing by relying on their feel? I think that it will vary for each individual & that they will have to make that decision based on their individual experience over whatever time frame allows them to make that decision.
As to pool rooms pulling in new players or pulling back former players probably their best option & bang for the buck, if they have one in their area, would be their local Clipper Magazine. I think most cities have such or some such other mail program that goes to nearly every home in their area. Then they can advertise their specials, etc. as a means to entice a visit. Once in the door, they have to provide something to keep them coming back.
Please remember that I started off by saying that all of the above is just my take, thoughts, & hence my opinion.
Best 2 All,
Rick
In other words, IMO:
Two of the greatest ball strikers in golf, Ben Hogan & Lee Trevino. Two totally different individuals with two totally different approaches. Both great golfers.
Tiger Woods changed his swing(method) almost immediately after his first Masters win when he basically dominated & blew away the field because he knew that the feel & timing for that kind of performance would be fleeting to maintain & to be consistent. He also knew that that kind of performance would not be needed on most occasions to defeat his 'competition'.
He has now gone to a very contrived method as a means to protect parts of his injured body & that has infiltrated into his short game where he has basically lost all of his feel. He may get back his feel in time with the new method.
Can a contrived method reach the upper level of feel when feel is at its best?
Can a contrived method reach the lower level of feel when feel is all but void?
Can any method work without some aspect of feel involved?
Can feel work without some form of 'method' from which to base itself.
The possibility of the rare highest level of greatness or the more consistent repeatable level of very good consistent play?
The word 'pure' has been used but it is probably balance that is best as it most often is in all aspects of life. I doubt that anyone plays with nothing but 'pure' feel just as I seriously doubt than anyone plays 'purely' void of any feel.
There is more to success than just how one plays. There is what is in the individual. Desire, Determination, Will, Sacrifice, Singleness of Purpose, 'Heart'. Or...the lack thereof.
Can a young individual make an 'intelligent' decision as to whether or not they will be better off playing with a prescribed method or be better off playing by relying on their feel? I think that it will vary for each individual & that they will have to make that decision based on their individual experience over whatever time frame allows them to make that decision.
As to pool rooms pulling in new players or pulling back former players probably their best option & bang for the buck, if they have one in their area, would be their local Clipper Magazine. I think most cities have such or some such other mail program that goes to nearly every home in their area. Then they can advertise their specials, etc. as a means to entice a visit. Once in the door, they have to provide something to keep them coming back.
Please remember that I started off by saying that all of the above is just my take, thoughts, & hence my opinion.
Best 2 All,
Rick
Organize and Possibly Obscure
Patrick,
Thats as good a way to say it as I think its been said up to this point.
If I had have an opinion I would say that over complication would obscure one from developing feel and that is not alone because also a lack of descriptive terms and clues would also inhibit a person from obtaining an elevated presence in the game.
Its fairly well evidenced that when people have ways they do things that in and of itself leads to stability and pool is a game of feel there is no way around that. That would be notable in watching a player that had a defined PSR not to even mention how he aimed. Perhaps when one knows more the area of feel, it becomes more defined and subject to more control. To me the whole purity issue becomes nothing more than a witch hunt as it has on this forum than a measure of ones game which is what matters the most.
Patrick,
Thats as good a way to say it as I think its been said up to this point.
If I had have an opinion I would say that over complication would obscure one from developing feel and that is not alone because also a lack of descriptive terms and clues would also inhibit a person from obtaining an elevated presence in the game.
Its fairly well evidenced that when people have ways they do things that in and of itself leads to stability and pool is a game of feel there is no way around that. That would be notable in watching a player that had a defined PSR not to even mention how he aimed. Perhaps when one knows more the area of feel, it becomes more defined and subject to more control. To me the whole purity issue becomes nothing more than a witch hunt as it has on this forum than a measure of ones game which is what matters the most.
FWIW: In a documentary on Ronnie O'Sullivan, he tried to replicate Steve Davis, the prototype methodical player in every way.
He just got better at it. Ask him about mechanics, physics and where eyes should be looking and he seems not to know much about such things, other than a few wacky claims like he thinks he hits all shots the same speed.
He's a master of potting and CB control and break building, yet has very strong methodical foundations in terms of pretty straight stroking. I think there is a ton of feel in his game, in terms of alignment and execution, but I think that is true for most pros of pool, snooker and golf most of the time. Though some focus more than others on particular analytics.
That some can play well with unorthodox swings and strokes, may suggest that the swing and stroke is not as sacred as many teachers would like us to think.
He just got better at it. Ask him about mechanics, physics and where eyes should be looking and he seems not to know much about such things, other than a few wacky claims like he thinks he hits all shots the same speed.
He's a master of potting and CB control and break building, yet has very strong methodical foundations in terms of pretty straight stroking. I think there is a ton of feel in his game, in terms of alignment and execution, but I think that is true for most pros of pool, snooker and golf most of the time. Though some focus more than others on particular analytics.
That some can play well with unorthodox swings and strokes, may suggest that the swing and stroke is not as sacred as many teachers would like us to think.
Hi Colon.
I think I still have, somewhere, a golf magazine of pictures of many many pros with very very different swings but the one thing that they all have in common is the impact position. There are freeze frames & if one obscured their physical characteristics & turned the pictures into stick men, as the article sort of did, one could not tell one from the other. The impact positions are 'identical'.
The golf club sort of dictates that, in order to get similar & desired results.
The pool cue is not quite as demanding, but IMO, it too should be moved according to it's 'design'. But, that is a whole other subject.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
No Doubt.
No Doubt Colin,
I think the idea that many instructors go with is one that puts the students under the impression that they are dependent on the instruction and they fear to tread into what they feel is right. As aiming has evolved in the last 10yrs into Pivot System important it would seem that many would think this is the way of the future and that many time tested standards could be abandoned in lining up for a shot. Not to say that others coming in from the side isnt their way of seeing things better ie..the correct visuals. I try to start out on good visual and setup into it and when I am adjusting feel the areas to the part of the pocket I want to play to.
For some any aiming convention could be considered as Unorthodox, as you suggest that the use of an Unorthodox swing and stroke could matter little as long as the person using it obtains the desired result.
End result being skill obtained, through subjectivity the area of aim and the areas of stroke might mean different things to different people as there is no way to see and feel through another persons eyes.
To say simply that one is purer than another or better than another might be more based on subjectivity than reality. Results are results.
No Doubt Colin,
I think the idea that many instructors go with is one that puts the students under the impression that they are dependent on the instruction and they fear to tread into what they feel is right. As aiming has evolved in the last 10yrs into Pivot System important it would seem that many would think this is the way of the future and that many time tested standards could be abandoned in lining up for a shot. Not to say that others coming in from the side isnt their way of seeing things better ie..the correct visuals. I try to start out on good visual and setup into it and when I am adjusting feel the areas to the part of the pocket I want to play to.
For some any aiming convention could be considered as Unorthodox, as you suggest that the use of an Unorthodox swing and stroke could matter little as long as the person using it obtains the desired result.
End result being skill obtained, through subjectivity the area of aim and the areas of stroke might mean different things to different people as there is no way to see and feel through another persons eyes.
To say simply that one is purer than another or better than another might be more based on subjectivity than reality. Results are results.
Ron Swanson
Banned
What do you mean he thinks he plays all shots the same speed?
A "Feel" player is nothing more than a fundamental player who has programed those fundamental elements into his subconscious performance to such a degree that he/she no longer thinks about the fundamentals.
The fact that a Feel player can't explain how he does what he does is not an indication that he never understood the fundamentals and therefore must be a Feel player. It simply indicates that he learned the fundamentals through trial and error and eventually discovered what fundamentally worked by virtue of Feeling his way through the process and adopting those elements that proved to be effective.
Ultimately, those elements that prove to be effective are always based on fundamentals.
In the end....all proficient players owe their success to the fundamentals despite the fact that they claim to feel the shot.
The fact that a Feel player can't explain how he does what he does is not an indication that he never understood the fundamentals and therefore must be a Feel player. It simply indicates that he learned the fundamentals through trial and error and eventually discovered what fundamentally worked by virtue of Feeling his way through the process and adopting those elements that proved to be effective.
Ultimately, those elements that prove to be effective are always based on fundamentals.
In the end....all proficient players owe their success to the fundamentals despite the fact that they claim to feel the shot.
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Interesting. I can see why you left Mika out of the feel group, but Efren and Bustie? I've always thought of both of them as primarily feel players. Why do you think they just look like feel players, if you don't mind? How about John Schmidt? He seems to be mostly a feel player to me, and he plays near the very top, at least when he's playing all the time.
Higgins may be the best feel cue man that even held a stick IMHO. Love to watch that guy. Too bad more pool players don't play like that, I think the public loves that flamboyant style of play.
If you watch Thorsten Hohlman play you'll see that the first thing he does is stand on the OB-to-pocket line for every shot, identifying the contact point on the OB. That is certainly NOT the habit of a "feel" player.
Watch SVB line up an along-the-rail kick shot. He carefully measures the distance from the OB-CP to the nose of the rail, then doubles the distance to determine where the CB should strike the rail. I use the same system (learned from a youtube video by Brian Gramsee; here is Dr Dave's version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyhKB9pN_Y) and I was amazed the first time I saw SVB using it. "Whoa, SVB is using the same kick shot system I use!" only he actually measures the distances with his cue, whereas I kind of eyball/estimate them. I guess I'm more of a feel player than he is.
Watch SVB line up an along-the-rail kick shot. He carefully measures the distance from the OB-CP to the nose of the rail, then doubles the distance to determine where the CB should strike the rail. I use the same system (learned from a youtube video by Brian Gramsee; here is Dr Dave's version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyhKB9pN_Y) and I was amazed the first time I saw SVB using it. "Whoa, SVB is using the same kick shot system I use!" only he actually measures the distances with his cue, whereas I kind of eyball/estimate them. I guess I'm more of a feel player than he is.
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