Everyone talks about all the rule changes in the game. I'm just curious as to what the generally accepted rules of 9 ball were 50 years ago. I can't seem to find them anywhere. Does anyone have a copy of any printed rules by chance?
Standard rules of 9 ball 50 years ago?
- Thread starter BlueCollarBar
- Start date
Wouldn't mind knowing the rules for 8 ball back then either.
Only if there had been no foul on the previous shot. The game was much more strategic then, today more tactical. As a famous former world champion told me :"Any idiot can hide the cue ball!" Depending on what region you were in there might have been variations of the push out rules, some playing that on the second foul in a row by any either player you were awarded ball in hand. Others played that it had to be by the same player. Any other single foul was behind the head string. There was no ball in hand anywhere on any foul like today. No three fouls loss of game. Any push out could depend on a lot of things as to how you would play it, especially the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. I very, very good player of my acquaintance always pushed out to a safe. Buddy Hall mostly pushed out to a shot which he didn't think his opponent could make but he could.
It was a very different game and better than the rules today, by far. Many don't agree with that, however
Always, always, always winner break, by the way.These were the rules as I learned them in the early '70s. I'm not sure there were any published rules for 9 ball before that. I have a BCA rule book from 1958 and there are no rules for 9 ball.
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2-Shot push. I grew up playing that way. It was still played into the 90's in NC.
Very much favored the better player.
Very much favored the better player.
Only if there had been no foul on the previous shot. The game was much more strategic then, today more tactical. As a famous former world champion told me :"Any idiot can hide the cue ball!" Depending on what region you were in there might have been variations of the push out rules, some playing that on the second foul in a row by any either player you were awarded ball in hand. Others played that it had to be by the same player. Any other single foul was behind the head string. There was no ball in hand anywhere on any foul like today. No three fouls loss of game. Any push out could depend on a lot of things as to how you would play it, especially the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. I very, very good player of my acquaintance always pushed out to a safe. Buddy Hall mostly pushed out to a shot which he didn't think his opponent could make but he could.
It was a very different game and better than the rules today, by far. Many don't agree with that, however
These were the rules as I learned them in the early '70s. I'm not sure there were any published rules for 9 ball before that. I have a BCA rule book from 1958 and there are no rules for 9 ball.
Strategies and tactics are synonyms. I'm assuming you mean that the game today is more shot making?
It would be cool to see which pros today might fare better with these rules and which would struggle.
I'll try to answer that by sharing what I've read. I can't verify the validity of everything, but I've heard CJ, Earl, Busty, Efren, McCready, Buddy, Sigel and almost every other pro of the era preferred it to the current rules. I would assume that any of them who are still shooting well enough to compete with "today's" young pros would fare better than they do with the current rules.
2 shot push out was by far more shot making than 1 foul
players would push to tuff shots and the best shot makers had the advantage
not much ducking much more offense you hook somebody they just push to a hard shot so no reward for defensive play really like in todays rules
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Strategic:adjective
1.
pertaining to, characterized by, or of the nature of strategy:
strategic movements.
2.
important in or essential to strategy.
3.
(of an action, as a military operation or a move in a game) forming an integral part of a stratagem:
a strategic move in a game of chess.
4.
Military.
intended to render the enemy incapable of making war, as by the destruction of materials, factories, etc.:
a strategic bombing mission.
essential to the conduct of a war
Tactical:adjective
1.
of or relating to tactics, especially military or naval tactics.
2.
characterized by skillful tactics or adroit maneuvering or procedure:
tactical movements.
3.
of or relating to a maneuver or plan of action designed as an expedient toward gaining a desired end or temporary advantage.
4.
expedient; calculated.
5.
prudent; politic.
Source: Dictionary.com
I have a BCA pamphlet from 1972, no 9 ball rules. I have both Mosconi's Little Red Book and the "Blue" book and neither has 9 ball rules. The oldest book I have with 9 ball rules in Mastering Pool by George Fels, 1978
Only if there had been no foul on the previous shot. The game was much more strategic then, today more tactical. As a famous former world champion told me :"Any idiot can hide the cue ball!" Depending on what region you were in there might have been variations of the push out rules, some playing that on the second foul in a row by any either player you were awarded ball in hand. Others played that it had to be by the same player. Any other single foul was behind the head string. There was no ball in hand anywhere on any foul like today. No three fouls loss of game. Any push out could depend on a lot of things as to how you would play it, especially the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. I very, very good player of my acquaintance always pushed out to a safe. Buddy Hall mostly pushed out to a shot which he didn't think his opponent could make but he could.
It was a very different game and better than the rules today, by far. Many don't agree with that, however:
Pushout..IMO opinion, your emboldened comments are very true !...From the earliest days of 9ball, (maybe 70-80 yrs. ago) the rules were pretty much the same as full rack rotation, which everybody played back then. There was no 'push out', or 'shoot again' and definately NO 'ball in hand, anywhere on the table' ! ..On a scratch, all balls made (or if the lowest one was behind the line) were placed on the spot, and you shot from anywhere BEHIND the kitchen line !..
..You'll notice these days, spot shots, even by top player's are very 'iffy' ! (they used to be 'gimmies')
The incoming player was expected to make a honest attempt to hit the lowest OB, no matter how bad he was hooked. Obviously, too many guys took advantage of that, and, out of necessity, the rules, and penalties for NOT making a good hit, gradually increased !..The push out, and two shot foul rules, were pretty standard for many years, until the 'Texas Express' rules came along, and drastically changed the game. (IMO for the worst) The reasons given, were to "speed up the game", which, as we now know, wound up having an almost opposite effect !..Games are longer now than ever !
The rules in effect today, for 9/10 ball, were gradually changed, until almost more emphasis is now placed on defense, than offense !..Most experienced player's, Buddy Hall, CJ Wiley, Incardona, and many others, (myself included) think TE rules ruined the game of 9ball !.. It did one thing for sure...It gave average players, playing short tournament sets, a better chance at an upset, which of course, led to increased participation in tournaments, by all skill levels !
That may be viewed as a 'good thing' by some, but I've always felt it could have been better resolved by handicapping, (games on the wire, ball spots, etc.) and leaving the older 9ball rules more intact !...But that never happened..These days, especially in league play, the game is somewhat like we now treat kids baseball games..where you get a trophy whether you finish first, or last (or even compete) Does anyone really think thats a GOOD thing, to be teaching our youth?...If they did that in Horse racing, I'd be a millionaire !
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Pushout..IMO opinion, your emboldened comments are very true !...From the earliest days of 9ball, (maybe 70-80 yrs. ago) the rules were pretty much the same as full rack rotation, which everybody played back then. There was no 'push out', and NO 'ball in hand, anywhere on the table' ! ..On a scratch, all balls made (or even the ones behind the line) were placed on the spot, and you shot from anywhere BEHIND the kitchen line !
The incoming player was expected to make a honest attempt to hit the lowest OB, no matter how bad he was hooked. Obviously, too many guys took advantage of that, and, out of necessity, the rules, and penalties for NOT making a good hit, gradually increased !..The push out, and two shot foul rules, were pretty standard for many years, until the 'Texas Express' rules came along, and drastically changed the game. (IMO for the worst) The reasons given, were to "speed up the game", which, as we now know, wound up having an almost opposite effect !..Games are longer now than ever !
The rules in effect today, for 9/10 ball, were gradually changed, until almost more emphasis is now placed on defense, than offense !..Most experienced player's (incl. myself) Buddy Hall, CJ Wiley, Cardone, and many others, think TE rules ruined the game !.. It for sure did one thing...It gave average players, playing short tournament sets, a better chance at an upset, which led to increased participation, in tournaments, by all skill levels !
That may be viewed as a 'good' thing, but I've always felt, it could have been better resolved by handicapping, (games on the wire, ball spots, etc.) and leaving the old rules more intact !...But that never happened..Now the game is treated, like now treat kids games..where you get a trophy whether you finish first, or last ???.. Does anyone really think, thats a good thing to be teaching our youth ?
Dick, I agree except for Billy Incardona. He's stated several times that he prefers the TE rules over Push Out. If I remember right, I've banged heads with him over it more than once
I've asked the same question (does anyone have written rules for two-foul pushout?) and received the same answers you have: lots of opinions about which is better; five-word "push out after any shot" answers; blah, blah. But no refences to written rules.
I guess back then no one wrote down rules. Must have been before the invention of written language.
The two-foul push out game will be lost forever after its current adherents die because no one will know the standard rules of the game. It's like wishing I had asked great-grandma more about the family history before she died. Once she was gone, it's lost forever.
I wish someone would write them down.
I guess back then no one wrote down rules. Must have been before the invention of written language.
The two-foul push out game will be lost forever after its current adherents die because no one will know the standard rules of the game. It's like wishing I had asked great-grandma more about the family history before she died. Once she was gone, it's lost forever.
I wish someone would write them down.
Er, no.
There are 3 basic levels of the game:: Tactics, Theater, Strategy.
Tactics are how to make a shot and get position. {shortest time scale, risk and reward}
Theater is how to win the game of the moment. {intermediate}
Strategy is how to win the match. {longest time scale, risk and reward.}
Only if there had been no foul on the previous shot. The game was much more strategic then, today more tactical. As a famous former world champion told me :"Any idiot can hide the cue ball!" Depending on what region you were in there might have been variations of the push out rules, some playing that on the second foul in a row by any either player you were awarded ball in hand. Others played that it had to be by the same player. Any other single foul was behind the head string. There was no ball in hand anywhere on any foul like today. No three fouls loss of game. Any push out could depend on a lot of things as to how you would play it, especially the strengths/weaknesses of the opponent. I very, very good player of my acquaintance always pushed out to a safe. Buddy Hall mostly pushed out to a shot which he didn't think his opponent could make but he could.
It was a very different game and better than the rules today, by far. Many don't agree with that, however
These were the rules as I learned them in the early '70s. I'm not sure there were any published rules for 9 ball before that. I have a BCA rule book from 1958 and there are no rules for 9 ball.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and most people are going to like whichever rules they grew up playing.
If there was enough demand for the old rules, A) they wouldn't have been changed in the first place, and B) there would be tournaments using these rules today. Nothing is stopping anyone from holding tournaments using those rules. Oh, and don't tell me that current rules are more "defense oriented" and then also say these rules exist because of spectators/tv. That's a contradiction.
In my opinion, the only thing that sucks with the current rules is that if your opponent misses a shot and unintentionally hooks you, you are punished for their miss. However you do still get a chance at the table, and the more skilled you are, the most you will make of the opportunity.
To me, the current rules require more skill and focus on execution, whereas the old rules focused on strategy. 9-ball is not meant to be like chess, as there are plenty of other pool games for that. Using the push out rules, if you mess up an out and hook yourself, you can fall back on the push out strategy. In today's rules, you're stuck with what you left yourself, and have to kick or jump out of it. Which requires more skill?
What I really don't understand about the argument against current rules is statements like "anyone can hide the cue ball." Umm actually it's quite difficult most of the time since you're shooting at the ball you're trying to hide from. Most safeties don't even result in a complete hook, which means usually the other player has a shot, or at the very least has an opportunity to play safe back. Most of the time, there is more skill in executing a lock down safety, controlling both the CB and OB, than there is in pocketing balls. Also, when playing the safe, the player is risking messing up the safety and selling out the entire game. There is little risk in a push out, since the execution is pretty simple.
Furthermore, you get to see how good players really are by how they are able to escape good safeties.
Everyone has an opinion, and they are rarely the same.
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The original '1 foul 9 ball rules' were developed around 69-71 by Weenie Bennie
and the Jansco brothers in Johnston city.
They were to speed up tournment play so the players could 'get to gamblin' !
The BCA rule books in the 70's and early 80's listed 2 sets of 9 ball rules.
'Tournment rules' were 1 foul with all balls spotted, ball in hand behind the line on a scratch on the break, and behind the line on a scratch on the 9 ball.
'9 ball rules' were 2 foul pushout.
The same players that played 1 foul in the tourneys gambled at pushout.
I never saw any gamblin at 1 foul in the 70's, although I'm sure there was some somewhere???
and the Jansco brothers in Johnston city.
They were to speed up tournment play so the players could 'get to gamblin' !
The BCA rule books in the 70's and early 80's listed 2 sets of 9 ball rules.
'Tournment rules' were 1 foul with all balls spotted, ball in hand behind the line on a scratch on the break, and behind the line on a scratch on the 9 ball.
'9 ball rules' were 2 foul pushout.
The same players that played 1 foul in the tourneys gambled at pushout.
I never saw any gamblin at 1 foul in the 70's, although I'm sure there was some somewhere???
Most safeties are pretty easy to get distance or hide the rock.
Playing safe is boring to watch.
1 foul promotes NOT breaking out clusters, NOT playing close position, NOT making spot shots.
I watch 'good' local players in VA on the action pool tour play 3-5 safeties a game!
IMO, this has hurt pool a lot. I turn it off.
If you want to duck, play 1 hole.
You can duck every shot!
ps
Jumping has been a foul in pool forever!
Lets stop it NOW!
Not to mention it kills the equipment!
followed by....
and..
So the rules existed to speed up tournament play, yet they also make games drag on and boring to watch? Just a little bit of a contradiction?
Yes most safeties are easy to create distance, but no they are not usually easy to hide the rock.
Creating distance and completely hiding the cue ball are two different things. If all you do is create distance, can't your opponent just create distance right back?
It may be "boring" to spectators but that says nothing about how easy or hard the game is, and in two foul it's boring to watch players push to create distance, which is much easier.
Literally all of that is your opinion with no factual basis. 2 foul can be even more of a chess game than 1 foul. In 2 foul you can strategically break out your balls with a push, where in 1 foul, you have to break it out with a legal shot.
Pushing is also a way of "ducking", except there's little risk, and no immediate reward.
Here is a past thread on old-school 9-ball. I was told police would use the excuse of people playing 9-ball to come into a poolhall for gambling, while 10-ball was okay as its considered a game of skill, not luck.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=169985
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=169985