Basic Kick and Bank Shot System

bigB

bigB

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So I've been looking for another tried and true kick shot and banking system to help me in my game. Looking at the colostate.edu website there is some great information, so when I came across this: http://billiards.colostate.edu/resources/bank_and_kick_shot_systems.pdf I decided to give it a try to see if it is any easier than the way I do it now (which is measure from say diamond 4 to diamond 2, move the cue tip over 1" and shoot). The problem is when I shoot either of the top two exercises on the page, I come up short every time. If I hit it harder, it would get close (and sometimes go in). I'm confused as to why hitting it harder would make the angle wider and thus pocket the ball, unless the cloth only grabs it when you shoot soft, making it come short? Anybody have this problem with this exercise, or is it just me? I've been playing pool for years (APA 8) so it's not a matter of not hitting the ball well.
Thanks for any help.
B
 
Make sure you aim at the diamond itself, not at where the diamond would extend to the rail.
Hit the ball with natural roll.
 
One thing that has helped my banking tremendously is to learn to hit them at a consistent speed and harder than a normal shot as it removes some of the many factors with banking. I believe I received this tip from a couple books and videos and refused to listen to it until I started to actually work on my banking. Making just that adjustment my banking success went up 10 fold.

You also need to learn the table, especially when you hit soft. Some tables you have to aim at the diamond others you may have to aim a little before or after.

If you are cutting a ball you have to account for the spin you are going to be putting on it so you may have to use inside to shorten it or outside to lengthen it or you may just simply have to pick a new aim spot on the bank rail.
 
Tor Lowry's Zero-X kicking system is the best I've found.
Bank shots are a different story. For object ball bank shots with cue ball shape, it seems that there's no substitute for trial & error and lots of practice. Bank shot systems are somewhat helpful, but not as foolproof as compared to Lowry's kicking system.
 
bigB said:
The problem is when I shoot either of the top two exercises on the page, I come up short every time. If I hit it harder, it would get close (and sometimes go in).
B
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Hitting the OB/CB harder shortens up the banking angle. Your explanation sounds like the banking angle widens as you hit harder. Perhaps you simply aim a little thinner when you hit hard?

One mistake many players make it to shoot a bank simply because they can pocket the ball...they get so focused on making the bank that they pay no attention to getting position on the next ball. If the bank doesn't provide position on the next ball, it's better to look for a safe.
 
bdorman said:
Hitting the OB/CB harder shortens up the banking angle. Your explanation sounds like the banking angle widens as you hit harder. Perhaps you simply aim a little thinner when you hit hard?

One mistake many players make it to shoot a bank simply because they can pocket the ball...they get so focused on making the bank that they pay no attention to getting position on the next ball. If the bank doesn't provide position on the next ball, it's better to look for a safe.
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That is possible and I'll try it again to see if it is my stroke when shooting hard, I found it odd that hitting it harder would widen the angle like that. Also, I think the way the diagram is drawn, it looks he wants you to aim from diamond (4) through the next diamond (2) to make it in the corner pocket, when it should be to aim from diamond (4) to the point on the rail directly in front of diamond (2). Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
I don't see why people (with the exception of bdorman) are recommending kicking and banking videos to a guy who is already familiar with them. He's asking why a ball he banks more firmly goes wide when conventional wisdom says it comes up short the harder you hit it.

He's asking what would explain that?

Being an APA 8 I'm sure you have a sound enough stroke, but for a lot of players, the harder you try to hit the ball the more pronounced any stoke flaws become. Even deviating from center ball (or whatever tip position you're at on the CB when banking) a half-tip or less is enough to cause the OB path to be altered.

It's quite possible that's not the case, which, if it's not then I'd say it has to do with the rails, cloth, table conditions.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm no expert on the subject of course so take it with a grain of salt.
 
bigB said:
the way I do it now (which is measure from say diamond 4 to diamond 2, move the cue tip over 1" and shoot).
Click to expand...
I don't know why hitting harder would make your shots go longer, unless you're using english and creating more deflection, and I'm curious about this: You say you move the cue tip over 1" - what do you mean? Are you shifting it on the cue ball, like putting english on it, or are you just aiming everything 1" down the rail - and if that's the case, which way?
 
Zphix said:
I don't see why people (with the exception of bdorman) are recommending kicking and banking videos to a guy who is already familiar with them. He's asking why a ball he banks more firmly goes wide when conventional wisdom says it comes up short the harder you hit it.

He's asking what would explain that?

Being an APA 8 I'm sure you have a sound enough stroke, but for a lot of players, the harder you try to hit the ball the more pronounced any stoke flaws become. Even deviating from center ball (or whatever tip position you're at on the CB when banking) a half-tip or less is enough to cause the OB path to be altered.

It's quite possible that's not the case, which, if it's not then I'd say it has to do with the rails, cloth, table conditions.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. I'm no expert on the subject of course so take it with a grain of salt.
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I appreciate that Zphix. I'm going to see if it is my stroke when I hit it hard. If it is, hopefully it'll be an easy fix. One thing that I didn't mention before is that table has brand new Simonis 860 (pictured in my avatar) with only about 10-15 good hours of table time on it, so it may have to do with the cloth. I'll continue to investigate and report back if I discover anything interesting.
Thanks guys!
 
BRussell said:
I don't know why hitting harder would make your shots go longer, unless you're using english and creating more deflection, and I'm curious about this: You say you move the cue tip over 1" - what do you mean? Are you shifting it on the cue ball, like putting english on it, or are you just aiming everything 1" down the rail - and if that's the case, which way?
Click to expand...

I've taken a couple lessons with Ray Martin and that's the way he teaches to shoot kicks/banks. Basically, top english, aim at the diamond and then move the cue tip over an inch down the rail (if you are banking to the left, move it an 1" to the left) without moving the back pivot point.
 
bigB said:
I've taken a couple lessons with Ray Martin and that's the way he teaches to shoot kicks/banks. Basically, top english, aim at the diamond and then move the cue tip over an inch down the rail (if you are banking to the left, move it an 1" to the left) without moving the back pivot point.
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Does this mean put some side spin on the CB? Is it the same for banks and kicks?

pj
chgo
 
I am considered good at kicking and banking. I know this sounds crazy but all I see on a pool table, other than the balls of course, are triangles. When I kick I do not necessarily have a system ie. diamonds. Even when I do not go 3 rails I see 2 sides of a triangle for just an angle.
 
Just a sill question but how many times have you actually hit the center of the cue ball with normal roll intentionally......?

All too often there's unintended off center stroking of the cue ball....albeit ever minute......and then throw in the speed of the banked ball.....harder is shorter and softer is longer....and those tend to influence whether the banked ball goes dead in the pocket, sloppily kicks in after hitting a pocket rail corner, kicks in and out of the pocket, misses long or short, etc.

Take a object ball frozen on the short rail in a straight line directly opposite the cue ball placed on the spot........both balls are in a direct line with one another........Now stroke the cue ball the way you might stroke it in a bank shot......make the cue ball strike the object ball dead center.......and after completing the stroke, keep your bridge hand and cue tip frozen.

The cue ball should strike the object ball and directly bounce back and hit your cue tip.......if it goes left or right of center tip coming bouncing back, it's because the cue ball either missed hitting the object ball dead center or the cue ball had unintended spin since you failed to stroke it directly on the center, vertical plane with normal roll......it's like the steel ball bearings figurine that strike each other.......when struck dead center, all the balls remain in motion in a dead straight line.

Now remember, when banking, the diamonds are a whole lot smaller than the object ball in this test and likely further away from one another too. If you want to extend the distance between the balls, place the frozen object ball on the short rail and place the cue ball by the side pocket or one of the closer diamonds. The cue ball should come directly back to your tip after striking the object ball when stroked with normal roll and both balls were hit in the center. Sometimes you hit some bank shots "more pure" than other attempts but in truth seldom do you hit it "pure or dead on".

Bank shots require the greatest amount of accuracy and speed control if you want to pocket the banked ball and control what happens with the cue ball after the object ball hit.....only practice will teach you how to control the amount of spin because when it comes to banking, spin can really be your best friend for navigating the cue ball to its next shot.......JMO.
 
bigB said:
Also, I think the way the diagram is drawn, it looks he wants you to aim from diamond (4) through the next diamond (2) to make it in the corner pocket, when it should be to aim from diamond (4) to the point on the rail directly in front of diamond (2). Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Your point of aim is at the diamond, not the part of the rail perpendicular to the diamond.

Notice in the colostate pdf, first graphic, that line coming from "4" (the side pocket) is not mid-pocket. The line crosses the cushion to the right of mid-pocket, somewhere around 3.9-3.8 at the rail.

Also, the shot line is aimed at Diamond #2, not the point on the rail next to Diamond #2. It actually crosses the rail at around 2.2.
 
Skippy27 said:
If you are using diamonds then you use diamonds. If you are using rail, then you use rail.

Mixing the 2 in a shot will certainly put you long or short.
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Actually, rail-to-diamond is probably most common and most accurate for a rolling ball.

Rail-to-rail is the longest. Rail-to-diamond (or diamond to rail) is shorter. Diamond-to-diamond is shortest.

pj
chgo
 
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