Why shaft weights are so varied and who made some very light shafts?

[Shawn Armstrong]

But radial pins are made in a variety of materials with different weights.

My example was for like materials. A 5/16-14 pin doesn't always have to be stainless steel. They can be brass. Or titanium. In a like for like comparison, a 3/8-10 pin will weigh the same, or more, than a 5/16-14 or 5/16-18 pin with brass insert. So...again, it's a wash.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Those are considered constants in my question,

Then you are making a poor assumption. A steel collar does not weight as much as a brass collar, but weights more than an Ivory collar; all of which weigh a lot more than no collar.

Even the insert on a wood-wood joint for a uni-lock joint has significant weight.

 

[HelloBaby-]

Then you are making a poor assumption. A steel collar does not weight as much as a brass collar, but weights more than an Ivory collar; all of which weigh a lot more than no collar.

Even the insert on a wood-wood joint for a uni-lock joint has significant weight.

Read the posts. I ONLY consider shafts with all those factors considered "the same" (same joint, same ferrule, same taper, same diameter, etc.). I'm not interested in those factors, everybody knows how they contribute to the weight of the shaft.

My question focus on the WOOD.

 

[billiardthought]

Read the posts. I ONLY consider shafts with all those factors considered "the same" (same joint, same ferrule, same taper, same diameter, etc.). I'm not interested in those factors, everybody knows how they contribute to the weight of the shaft.

My question focus on the WOOD.

If your shaft has a brass ferrule it will be more forward weighted.... IM JOKING

It's funny how many people are talking about pins/shaft inserts...

 

[HelloBaby-]

I think at a certain level, approved by cuemaker to leave the shop, shafts tend to be in a reasonable range of weight (joint insert, joint material, ferrule same)

I believe your shaft weight variance is because those 2 shafts are from 2 cue makers? if from one, same taper, same tip size, then I would question that cue maker judgement and wood source.

Hi buddy,

Same cue maker (Rick Howard), same diameter, 2 original shafts from the same cue.
Taper should be close.

Shaft 1------------------------------------Shaft 2

old-grown maple wood-----------Curly maple wood
Ivory ferrule--------------------------Ferrule-less
30"---------------------------------------29.25"
3.2oz------------------------------------3.7oz

So the old-grown shaft is longer, has an ivory ferrule and still way lighter.

Biggest factor of course remains in the wood.

In fact, I am so surprise that how the old-grown shaft can be that light, given that it's a 30" with ivory ferrule. Crazy!
Anyway, it's my main player now. I have a Richard Harris with micarta ferrule but it's over 4oz, too heavy for me .

I would love to have another one at 3.3oz, light shaft plays light-out hehe

 

[krychekrowe]

Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

 

[Bca8ball]

Those are considered constants in my question, I am more interested in the "wood" factor here.



I have 2 identical shaft yet they are 3.1oz and 3.7oz. And yes I want to know why and hopefully able to buy a 3rd one at 3.3oz.

Odds are that your shaft have a dimensional variation.
Identical shafts are theoretically possible but you have to considering Identical diameters and taper pitch within the diameter. Considering you have the ability to measure these with micrometers or calipers, you would also need to checked the bore depth at the collar joint.

Wood density can and does vary.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Shawn does have a point but I should at least mention the my cues' pins all vary from steel to brass to titanium.
All of the pins are either radial or 3/8x10 or 11 threads. My cue-makers selected the pins to manage the butt weight.

The bottom-line is we all wind up playing with cues we like and there seems to be some players don't even know why.
I suppose it doesn't matter in the final analysis as long as you wind up with a pool cue that meets your basic needs.

 

[ctran]

Hi buddy,

Same cue maker (Rick Howard), same diameter, 2 original shafts from the same cue.
Taper should be close.

Shaft 1------------------------------------Shaft 2

old-grown maple wood-----------Curly maple wood
Ivory ferrule--------------------------Ferrule-less
30"---------------------------------------29.25"
3.2oz------------------------------------3.7oz

So the old-grown shaft is longer, has an ivory ferrule and still way lighter.

Biggest factor of course remains in the wood.

In fact, I am so surprise that how the old-grown shaft can be that light, given that it's a 30" with ivory ferrule. Crazy!
Anyway, it's my main player now. I have a Richard Harris with micarta ferrule but it's over 4oz, too heavy for me .

I would love to have another one at 3.3oz, light shaft plays light-out hehe

Haha if it's Rick Howard then I need to group him with Southwest, their shafts are often lighter than other cuemakers, I dont know why but I really want to try out some day, my own cue not others' lol.

Cuemakers should pair the butt with the shafts based on the weight, so there maybe certain things in RH and SW calculation that serve their philosophy.

You can read in the topic about wood some one mentioned earlier and see that weight does not necessarily indicates great wood, or old wood.

I am not sure but I am kinda wanting my shafts closer to 4oz, I would be disappointed if they shows less than 3.5oz on the scale, received a Capone like that.

But you are a better player than me, haha. I am not a guy who dwell into what I believe and ignore other's, it's the idea of better players about cues that help me learn more. I will get a Rick Howard and let you know my thoughts lol

 

[HelloBaby-]

Haha if it's Rick Howard then I need to group him with Southwest, their shafts are often lighter than other cuemakers, I dont know why but I really want to try out some day, my own cue not others' lol.

Cuemakers should pair the butt with the shafts based on the weight, so there maybe certain things in RH and SW calculation that serve their philosophy.

You can read in the topic about wood some one mentioned earlier and see that weight does not necessarily indicates great wood, or old wood.

I am not sure but I am kinda wanting my shafts closer to 4oz, I would be disappointed if they shows less than 3.5oz on the scale, received a Capone like that.

But you are a better player than me, haha. I am not a guy who dwell into what I believe and ignore other's, it's the idea of better players about cues that help me learn more. I will get a Rick Howard and let you know my thoughts lol

Well one think for sure light shaft mean less deflection, combining with the taper you have solid hit and reduced deflection.

For me light shaft also help with the "small" shot, remember F = ma ? you want small F apply on the CB it's easier to have small m and a can be a little bit higher. if you have big m then you have to be very delicate in adjusting a.

Same concept for driving, the wheel too sensitive makes it hard to make incremental changes, or playing counter-strike - pro move the mouse like crazy to move the aim just slightly.

 

[ctran]

Well one think for sure light shaft mean less deflection, combining with the taper you have solid hit and reduced deflection.

For me light shaft also help with the "small" shot, remember F = ma ? you want small F apply on the CB it's easier to have small m and a can be a little bit higher. if you have big m then you have to be very delicate in adjusting a.

Same concept for driving, the wheel too sensitive makes it hard to make incremental changes, or playing counter-strike - pro move the mouse like crazy to move the aim just slightly.

your formula be the related to tip size? if it is the mass weight then it should be whole weight of the cue

I agree that tip size affects how we move cue ball, but I have played with 13.2mm tip that moves cueball easier than 12.5mm. it's all down to how the whole cue is constructed.

Again, I like my shafts to be as close to 13mm and 4oz as possible. I applied Matt's rule and saw that all my cues have shafts accounting for 19.5-22.5% of whole cue, which is great for me now.

 

[9Ballr]

4lbs?! That's some heavy shaft, you must be Big Foot or something!

So far none of the makers I've talked to have had any problems making this.
I forgot to mention I like 30" shafts. So that will help.
Plus a 13mm tip.

 

[ctran]

So far none of the makers I've talked to have had any problems making this.
I forgot to mention I like 30" shafts. So that will help.
Plus a 13mm tip.

haha it's 4lbs vs 4oz

 

[HelloBaby-]

your formula be the related to tip size? if it is the mass weight then it should be whole weight of the cue

I agree that tip size affects how we move cue ball, but I have played with 13.2mm tip that moves cueball easier than 12.5mm. it's all down to how the whole cue is constructed.

Again, I like my shafts to be as close to 13mm and 4oz as possible. I applied Matt's rule and saw that all my cues have shafts accounting for 19.5-22.5% of whole cue, which is great for me now.

I'm sure it's has something to do with the balance point. Just don't have the time and patience to do the force, momentum, work, energy stuffs but self-expriment is good enough :thumbup:

 

[ctran]

Oh one thing I failed to mention is that Rick Howard and SW use slimmer diameters at joint, which explains why they have ligher shafts than most.

 

[9Ballr]

haha it's 4lbs vs 4oz

Yes....LOL......sorry.... hehehe... 4 oz

 

[HelloBaby-]

Oh one thing I failed to mention is that Rick Howard and SW use slimmer diameters at joint, which explains why they have ligher shafts than most.

Judd cues also have thinner butt and shaft, too. Great sticks!

 

[Cross]

I've relied upon the general approach when acquiring cues to get shafts that are 20%. and preferably, even up to 22-23% range, of the cue's playing weight. All the shafts on my cues weigh at least 20% of the cue's weight and I made sure the customs I've ordered were made that way......all flat faced shafts.

To better illustrate, here are the specs on two my cues. Prewitt Cue Wt: 18.8 ozs (butt 14.6 ozs & shaft 4.2 ozs. or 22.3%) or my last Jerry R. Cue Wt. 18.487 ozs, (butt 14.497 ozs & shaft 3.99 ozs or 21.6%). All of my cues adhere to the 20% rule of thumb and the shaft sizes vary. The Prewitt uses 13mm shafts and the Jerry R has 12.75mm shafts but both shafts play very solid and firm hitting. The cues Bob Owen made me were made this way, as well as my Tim Scruggs cue.

It's been my experience that when the shaft weight starts dipping below my 20% rule, 19% is the cut-off point as far as I'm concerned, the cue feels different. And when the shaft is piloted, I also increase the percentage requirement. Let me emphasize I am not a cue-maker, nor do I consider myself equivalently knowledgeable either. However, based upon the finest names and most expensive cues I've seen. all of these cues followed my rule of thumb so I am sticking with it.

Hi! Do you mind measuring the balance point of your cues? ( I mean the ones who fall into the 20% rule of thumb for shaft weight). I am very curious about this theory and im also wondering if this ratio is something cuemakers consciously consider when not specified by a customer. Thanks in advance


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[qbilder]

Wood density ranges pretty dramatically. Its not uncommon for me to see an ounce or more variance between shafts as I am cutting them to size. I can cut 100 shafts to the exact same dimensions and end up with a range of weights from 3.4oz up to 4.5oz. That's actually pretty typical.

Personally speaking, I use matched shafts for a cue. For instance, a cue that's getting two shafts will have both shafts weighing the same, generally looking the same, and sharing similar tonal characteristics. This way they play as close to identical as possible. The shaft weights are chosen not only according to cue balance, but also overall cue weight. A 19oz cue with 19.25" balance point with either shaft doesn't just happen. It takes effort & planning to achieve. This is one of those areas of cue making that is rarely considered by buyers, and something you don't generally get from production cues/shafts. Many custom makers don't even pay it much attention. In my mind, it's one of the most critical factors in how enjoyable a cue is to play with. A comfortable cue that feels nice and is easy to play with makes the cue enjoyable, which translates into the player having confidence in it. It's not random or accidental. It's planned that way.

 

[Bca8ball]

Just out of curiosity I just weighed two different Revo shafts. Based on the serial numbers they aren't anywhere close in their production sequence.
The one off a P3 is 4.120oz
The one from the Predator 20th anniversary cue is 3.995oz.
Difference of only .125oz (a dime is .080) and a bit of that is due to one having a new Predator tip while the other a used UltraSkin Pro tip.
Stands to reason once wood density is out of the equation.


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