handicaps from different regions

lorider said:
After last night i thought I would revisit this thread.


Since my last post I have acquired 4 players from other areas 2 of those are no longer with me due to one quiting and the other is expecting a baby.

The one that quit was a 6/5 from north Carolina and like the others I posted about was not very competitive with local players his skill level.

The one who is expecting was a 3/4 from Rhode island. Decent player for her skill level is all I can say. She had a better record in 8 ball but I thought she was a lil over rated in 9 ball.

I added a 5/5 from Pennsylvania this session. The worst player at his handicap out of all I have had. 1-4 in both 8 and 9 ball with both wins coming vs 3's.

Now the real reason I revisited this thread.

I am sitting at home yesterday killing time before going to league and my phone rings. It's from the girl who works the counter at the pool hall where I am playing that night.

She says she has a guy there that just moved to town and is looking to get on a team. I ask the pertinent questions ....is he a current apa player and what is his handicap. She replies yes he is and is a 5/4.

My first thought is I have not had any luck at all getting a player from another area who is competitive here at their handicap. My 2nd thought was how long could that streak last ? My 3rd thought was ....well.i do have 2 spots available.

So I told her I was gonna get with the lo and see if I could add him being the cutoff date was past for adding new players and get back to her in a few minutes. My lo says yea but reminds me this player and will not be eligible for playoffs or higher this session. I then called the pool hall back and told her to tell him I would add him and that I would be there in a couple hours.

I get there a half hour before league and he is waiting on me. We make small talk a while and I introduce him to everyone . A 5 who has been with me the longed rolls his eyes at the news of a new out of town player ...he knows our history with new players lol .

The other team throws a 4 out first in 9 ball so I say....lets see what this kid can do and throw him. I keep score and halfway through the first rack I am thinking....glory be ....hallelujah......yay ! ... Awesome....about friggin time I get a decent player.

I could tell right off bat .....he is methodical....deliberate...hits every shot at pocket speed or for position . Great psr and fundamentals for a 4 and better than some 5's I know. He goes on to win 15-5 in 18 innings. A little on the low side for most 4's but not exactly s/l 5 area.

Later I throw him blind in 8 ball. The opposing captain decides to throw himself. He is a pretty strong 6. I dont watch as I am busy playing 9 ball. Later looking at the score sheet I see he lost hill-hill in 22 innings with both players playing 5 safes apiece. That is right where I expect a good 5 to be and to say I was happy would be an understatement.

I asked if he wanted to join my Thursday 9 ball travel team. He replied sure. He said he loves to play pool.

Looks like I have a younger version of me .
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Love's pool. Probably willing to take instruction then. Good acquisition lorider.

My biggest frustration with players is their unwillingness to listen and or try doing what I tell them.

We added a 7 recently. He knows pool like I know my favorite socks. Now when I need help I can get his ideas.
 
Lonestar_jim said:
Love's pool. Probably willing to take instruction then. Good acquisition lorider.

My biggest frustration with players is their unwillingness to listen and or try doing what I tell them.

We added a 7 recently. He knows pool like I know my favorite socks. Now when I need help I can get his ideas.
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I am the bed player on every team I am captain excel this one. I have 6 in 8 and was just raised to a 7 in 9. However we both play on different teams on other nights and I have won every time I have played him ...so maybe I am the strongest on this one also .:smile:

One of the things we talked about when I met him was that during regular session I very seldom called time outs ....unless it was obvious they were undecided about a shot. I went on to explain that I then would ask if they wanted a time out and if so I would offer advice . I also explained that during playoffs or higher and I turned dead serious then and would call a time out when I thought it was appropriate. He said he was ok with that.

Well last night he was undecided on a shot on the 6 and was taking a long time ...just looking at the ball. I asked if he wanted a time out and he said sure. I always start out with what are they thinking. He said he had no idea what to do. I suggested he play safe by skimming the 6 with top right English...sending the cue ball to the top rail and hopefully getting the cue ball behind the 9 but if he did not get it behind the 9 his opponent was left with a tough bank as the 7 was in the WA of a cross side bank.

He pulled it off pretty good but did not get behind the 9 and his opponent did try a cross side bank and sure enough failed because it hit the 7. My player goes on to run the table.

I can't ask.for any better than that.

Hope you are doing good Jim.
 
lorider said:
I am the bed player on every team I am captain excel this one. I have 6 in 8 and was just raised to a 7 in 9. However we both play on different teams on other nights and I have won every time I have played him ...so maybe I am the strongest on this one also .

One of the things we talked about when I met him was that during regular session I very seldom called time outs ....unless it was obvious they were undecided about a shot. I went on to explain that I then would ask if they wanted a time out and if so I would offer advice . I also explained that during playoffs or higher and I turned dead serious then and would call a time out when I thought it was appropriate. He said he was ok with that.

Well last night he was undecided on a shot on the 6 and was taking a long time ...just looking at the ball. I asked if he wanted a time out and he said sure. I always start out with what are they thinking. He said he had no idea what to do. I suggested he play safe by skimming the 6 with top right English...sending the cue ball to the top rail and hopefully getting the cue ball behind the 9 but if he did not get it behind the 9 his opponent was left with a tough bank as the 7 was in the WA of a cross side bank.

He pulled it off pretty good but did not get behind the 9 and his opponent did try a cross side bank and sure enough failed because it hit the 7. My player goes on to run the table.

I can't ask.for any better than that.

Hope you are doing good Jim.
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Thx, If I was a dog, my tail would be wagging.
Just don't get near my dinner bowl.
 
This is why APA and other league ratings don't work too well, but the standard ABCD ratings do, as does the Fargo ratings.

Your APA score is only how well you play vs others in your area, you are an A player no matter where you go (meaning ability to run 7+ balls on average every time in 9 ball with ball in hand). How well you play position and pocket balls does not change from area to area or who you play.

A 9 in the APA can be anyone from a B+ to a Pro. A 9 in Buttfalls Backwoods town could lose all the time to the 9s in Manhattan in a national event but only because that 9 is a good B while the Manhattan guys are A and up players. A B+ rating would make you a B+ no matter where you are.
 
hang-the-9 said:
This is why APA and other league ratings don't work too well, but the standard ABCD ratings do, as does the Fargo ratings.

Your APA score is only how well you play vs others in your area, you are an A player no matter where you go (meaning ability to run 7+ balls on average every time in 9 ball with ball in hand). How well you play position and pocket balls does not change from area to area or who you play.

A 9 in the APA can be anyone from a B+ to a Pro. A 9 in Buttfalls Backwoods town could lose all the time to the 9s in Manhattan in a national event but only because that 9 is a good B while the Manhattan guys are A and up players. A B+ rating would make you a B+ no matter where you are.
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There is truth to your post and I agree completely about the highest level could be anywhere from a b to pro level.

Considering apa handicapping system is basically xx racks in xx innings the levels would be fairly even from one region to another.

Our players seem to not fare very well in Vegas which leads me to believe other areas have stronger players than we do.

So along that line of thinking its just very surprising that every player who I have come on contact with is not very competitive with players at the same level locally..

I am talking from all over the eastern part of the country....michigan...rhode island....Pennsylvania....north and south Carolina. I know its just a minute sample of th thousands of apa players nationwide but it puzzling how every one of them literally sucked compared to players here.

However ....so far this new guy seems very competitive at his level funny thing is he just moved from southern part of Mississippi ...only a couple hundred miles away so he Is almost local compared to the other 6 I have had.
 
I think all handicaps are fairly close until the 8ball 7, it should go to ten with a huge difference in the 7's ability. Same goes for a 9 ball 9! All other ranges are fairly close unless sandbagging occurs
 
hang-the-9 said:
Your APA score is only how well you play vs others in your area....
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This simply is not true. I have played dozens of people from all over the country and even Canada. From small towns you have never heard of to big cities like Chicago and New York and I have had 2 issues with someone's rating and one of them knew she was about to be raised as she has been improving.

Their system is strictly mathematics based on how you perform and that does not change from area to area. Now you could have a small subset of an area that does not keep score well and thus does not mark safeties as they should thus keeping a small group artificially lower than they should be, but overall that is not an issue and those will certainly be addressed at higher level tournaments.

I have come across people that only play on 9 foot tables so the clutter of 7 footers throws them off and players that don't really believe in playing safe. That is how they do it in their area and when they come up on someone of their same rank that plays safe or uses the clutter to their advantage exposing a big hole in their game they instantly think the player is underrated.
 
mvp said:
I think all handicaps are fairly close until the 8ball 7, it should go to ten with a huge difference in the 7's ability. Same goes for a 9 ball 9! All other ranges are fairly close unless sandbagging occurs
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I would agree only with your statement that a 7 in 8 ball and a 9 in 9ball can be someone that is barely there and one that could be pro if they wanted.

I don't agree that they should have higher ratings though as that throws off the entire 23 team points to play which goes against the purpose of the APA catering to all level of players. You would start seeing more stacked teams.

Maybe what they could do is have like a 7, 7+ and 7++. Then for every + in your rating your opponent has to win 1 less game (or you 1 or 2 more as the minimum would stay 2 wins). So a 7 V 7++ would be a 3 to 5 race or a 7++ V 5 would be a 6 to 2 race. Same concept wit 9 ball. Just add or remove balls needed against them.
 
Speaking of handicaps how would you like to have to go up against pros in an amateur tournament? 2 years ago in 2015 I played in the Columbus Classic straight pool tournament ran by the Columbus Ohio Straight Pool League. Played in 2 'qualifiers'. Paid out $120 in entry fees. First one at Cushions they changed the format without an announcement, taking a vote on it or asking the players permission. You CANNOT by law change the format of a tournament. Once you advertise or print up flyers you absolutely cannot change the format. This tournament was advertised as to 100 points in the winner's bracket & to 75 in the loser's bracket. This is what we played at the 2nd 'qualifier' at Bankshots in Hilliard. At Cushions in my 1st match I found out that the format had been changed to 75 instead of 100. I found out that when my opponent announced he had 75 & had won [he was buddies with the Tournament Directors]. He took great delight in this knowing that I was in the dark. There was no announcement & no one had informed me that the format had changed. If I had known this initially I would have made it clear to all that this is illegal & that everyone had a right to ask for their entry fee back.

In addition they had advertised this straight pool tournament as an amateur tournament. It specifically stated on the website & the flyers 'NO PROS allowed' [I still have one of the flyers in my possession]. 'Top 125 BCA players ineligible' is also on this flyer. When people say "no pros" they mean no people that play at pro speed. I was very surprised to see some of the 'A+' players that were allowed to enter your so-called 'No pros' tournament. I also noticed that not a single person was turned away for any reason. No one was questioned about their amateur status.

Should top money-makers around the state be permitted to play in an amateur event? I spoke with several players who could not stop talking about how high ranked they were in the BCA & how much prize money they have won in the past few years. Some players I have personal knowledge of, such as Mike Dunn. He plays with a $10,000 cue stick. Andre out of Airway Billiards in Dayton, who I played at Cushions bragged about winning BCA championships & how much money he brings in on the pool table.

Players that have played in ANY pro event cannot participate in amateur events. I'll bet half of the 23 entries I saw in the 1st 2 Central Ohio events have played in a pro event at least once.

What about paid pool instructors playing in an amateur tournament? Fair or not? One was at Bankshots playing in this tournament, Don Reed the owner & house pro of Bankshots in Hilliard.

What about an 'A+' player hosting a tournament at their own establishment, and then playing in the tournament and mowing down the entries to take prize money or qualify for the final tournament? Is that fair? Playing on the very equipment that they own? Again Don Reed of Bankshots. Who also ran the show, picking out which table he would play on & which player he would play.

Many players have the misconception that no "pro" would ever play in an amateur tournament. Pros want to win money. Some are hard up for cash. When a tournament such as this with $500-$1000 pots & a final tournament with $5000 up for grabs, the pro players & 'A+' players will come out of the woodwork.

"What is a 'B' Player"? vs. "What is an 'A' Player?" Here's the A-D scale from Capelle's "Play Your Best Pool" (p.386):

D: A beginner or someone who plays so infrequently that their game remains in the beginner category.

C-: A below average player - this denotes a player with some recognizable skills who has definitely risen from the ranks of beginners. This is the first major milestone.

C: An average player - describes a large section of pool enthusiasts with experience whose games perhaps have leveled off, or that only play occasionally.

C+: Above average player - this group plays a very acceptable game of pool. They tend to dominate their level of competition.

B-: This is perhaps the biggest hurdle, as a good number of players peak at the C+ level. A B- is a good player who is quite capable of running a rack of Eight Ball or Nine Ball. However, they usually lack consistency.

B: A solid, advanced player - these players can run out fairly regularly, but lack a little consistency.

B+: Players at this level are often mistaken for lower level A players when they are playing well because they play a very tough, well-rounded game. They can run out from nearly anywhere at anytime.

A-: Another big jump is required to break through to the "A" level. This group of players could be classified as semi-pros or top amateurs. They are very skilled in nearly all facets of the game. They run out easily and very often.

A: A professional quality player who can compete with and occasionally beat all but the best players. Very skilled, solid, and consistent. Runs multiple racks quite often. Tough to beat.

A+: Touring Pro - the best. Skilled in every area of the game. Breaks and runs out multiple racks regularly. Definitely in a class by themselves.

The simple interpretation of the A-D rating system of players:

A: a good player capable of running most racks or playing lock-up safeties.

B: a decent player capable of running racks and playing effective safeties periodically.

C: an average player who doesn’t run racks very often and doesn’t have much of a safety game.

D: a novice player who makes many mistakes, can’t run even an easy rack, and never even considers playing safe.

Here is the kicker. The so-called 'qualifiers' did not matter. When the finals were held anyone with the $125 entry fee was allowed to participate. The 'qualifiers' were a sham. Many players in the finals did not qualify. So why play in a qualifier? They had the roster of winners of the qualifiers & the finals up on the internet previously. Also they had videos of the finals matches with the players names listed [looks like all of this has been taken down now]. All you had to do was match up the names & see anyone could enter the finals as long as they had the $$$. "Must play in a Qualifier to be eligible for state Finals" This is a direct quote from the flyer I have.

I have ran many tournaments myself. Always on the up & up. Not like this one.
 
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