Illegal team takes 3rd in Gold at BCA Nationals

[justinb386]

As long as they registered under 3000, that is correct. This was very clearly noted on the registration which makes the title to your post incorrect. You even mentioned that you accepted this explanation yet titled it as "Illegal"

As far as the 140 player that should have been a 640, that's not right assuming it's true.

Better luck next time.

Yeah, I do not see why the 1st team who they beat did not notice that one of the other teams side had a player with only a 140 rating, and did not question them about it. I think there must have been plenty of opportunities for someone to notice the player with the 140 rating. Very strange that it was not noticed (by anyone, who had a good reason to care) until the team had almost won the entire championship.

 

[oneshotwiss]

Yeah, I do not see why the 1st team who they beat did not notice that one of the other teams side had a player with only a 140 rating, and did not question them about it. I think there must have been plenty of opportunities for someone to notice the player with the 140 rating. Very strange that it was not noticed (by anyone, who had a good reason to care) until the team had almost won the entire championship.

Read post #19 again. You didn't understand the whole 140 point issue. He was a 140 at registration but adjusted to a 640 at tournament time

 

[oneshotwiss]

Your whining is unbecoming and your math is nonsensical.

Had one player been rated at 140 the rest would have had to average 717 to make it at 3015. I don't even know 4 amateurs that good much less that could make a team.

You got creamed. It happens. I have lost 7-0 to players rated lower than I am. This team didn't even win the event. Why not?

I love beating people like you. It's never your fault. Your crying makes it all the sweeter.

This event had enough legitimate issues without this kind of fake news crap.

JC

Your reading skills suck JC. I said he was a 140 at registration and adjusted to 640 at tournament time to get them at the 3015 number but thanks for your exemplary math skills.

 

[justinb386]

First of all, I'm just stating what was explained to us and the Dayton team by the people at the payout desk. They stated that when said team registered one of the player's Fargo rates was wrong. It was 500 off so they registered as a 2515. After registration it was corrected and they were still within the 50 point cushion allowed after registration and came into the tournament at a 3015. The point was that had the Fargo number been adjusted properly before registration, they would have been over the 3000 mark at the time of registration meaning Platinum division for them.

They (the team) must have known that the 2515 Fargo rating was not correct (for their teams combined Fargo rating), during registration (I assume). I do not know. They may not have been paying attention to that.

 

[justinb386]

Read post #19 again. You didn't understand the whole 140 point issue. He was a 140 at registration but adjusted to a 640 at tournament time

Sorry, I understand now. Sounds like they actually had a team with a combined Fargo rating of 3015. That does not sound much stronger then one of the posters teams above (who said his team went 2 and out), who had a rating of 2,999. Sounds like all of these players are on around the same level. Some just played stronger under pressure then others, on that day.

 

[pocket]

Now I'm confused. OP said "legal team takes third". Yet explains how they were legal? Within the buffer by his own complaint?

Was the issue the two different explanations? Neither seemed to make the team "illegal"?

 

[justinb386]

Now I'm confused. OP said "legal team takes third". Yet explains how they were legal? Within the buffer by his own complaint?

Was the issue the two different explanations? Neither seemed to make the team "illegal"?

I think that if the team knew that there was an error in one of their players Fargo rating at registration, then in a way, they did cheat, because had they noticed it, and fixed the mistake during registration (or maybe even before registration), then they would have been in the higher ranking field of teams. I can only assume that they did look at their players Fargo ratings during registration, to make sure everything looked correct. I am baffled that them or BCA did not see the 140 number player during registration. If the average player is around a 600 ranking, then 140 would look very out of place, right?

 

[jasonlaus]

If there is a 3000 limit and they were over, it should be automatic disqual. These teams know EXACTLY what their total handicap is. Doesnt matter if they were beat by other teams or not, if they were over, they cheated, period.

Now whether this is the whole complete story is another thing. Just commenting on whats been presented.
Jason

 

[marek]

Reading this thread makes me feel little sorry for you guys. *****ing about the handicaps is taking out of the enjoyment of the game big time. While i understand the reasoning that handicaps bring more amateur players to the game i dont believe that it is the only way how to do it. In Europe you can scarcely see a handicapped tournament,basically 99% of the tournaments are open to all players,there are virtually no "pros banned" tournaments. So quite often you have an opportunity to play pro-level player even at rather small regional tournament which is great opportunity to see how the game is played on higher level. You learn faster that way,trust me :smile:

 

[jasonlaus]

Reading this thread makes me feel little sorry for you guys. *****ing about the handicaps is taking out of the enjoyment of the game big time. While i understand the reasoning that handicaps bring more amateur players to the game i dont believe that it is the only way how to do it. In Europe you can scarcely see a handicapped tournament,basically 99% of the tournaments are open to all players,there are virtually no "pros banned" tournaments. So quite often you have an opportunity to play pro-level player even at rather small regional tournament which is great opportunity to see how the game is played on higher level. You learn faster that way,trust me :smile:

If these people wanted to play pros they would, this is about a handicapped tournament where teams can compete against similar play. There is nothing hard to understand, but for some reason, many of you just dont get it.
Jason

 

[marek]

If these people wanted to play pros they would, this is about a handicapped tournament where teams can compete against similar play. There is nothing hard to understand, but for some reason, many of you just dont get it.
Jason

Believe me, I understand the concept of handicapping and its benefits, I am just saying that problems connected to handicapping (sandbagging, handicap limits/cutting players from the team because they got too good, etc.) are pain in the a$$ and basically not worth it in my opinion.

 

[Justin Bergman]

I understand Marek's point. I know pool halls that used to have 50-60 players every Sunday for an open race to 7 & they switched to handicapped and everyone complained to the point it wasn't even fun & on top of that it lost a lot of interest in watching the finals. Then the real players stopped playing be used now they lose to a 2 that doesn't even care about the game and the 6's are robbing it now. So after a month or two they were getting 20-30 players, then 15, now they quit having them. Now I think they occasionally have Friday night your mantra but won't let anyone that can run 2 balls play. If you're an APA 3 you're banned literally. They get like 6 players.

If you handicapped or just ban/punish the good players it really hurts pool in the long run. Just like the little tournament above I was talking about the good players just quit coming in. Those players are the ones that come in 5 times a week, practice, spend money, eat, etc. The 3 that *****es and complains about handicaps don't care if they come in again ever. Those same type people probably won't spend a dollar eating or drinking or probably won't tip the waitress a dollar but pool halls around where I live cater to people like that it's amazing.

 

[jasonlaus]

I understand Marek's point. I know pool halls that used to have 50-60 players every Sunday for an open race to 7 & they switched to handicapped and everyone complained to the point it wasn't even fun & on top of that it lost a lot of interest in watching the finals. Then the real players stopped playing be used now they lose to a 2 that doesn't even care about the game and the 6's are robbing it now. So after a month or two they were getting 20-30 players, then 15, now they quit having them. Now I think they occasionally have Friday night your mantra but won't let anyone that can run 2 balls play. If you're an APA 3 you're banned literally. They get like 6 players.

If you handicapped or just ban/punish the good players it really hurts pool in the long run. Just like the little tournament above I was talking about the good players just quit coming in. Those players are the ones that come in 5 times a week, practice, spend money, eat, etc. The 3 that *****es and complains about handicaps don't care if they come in again ever. Those same type people probably won't spend a dollar eating or drinking or probably won't tip the waitress a dollar but pool halls around where I live cater to people like that it's amazing.

We're talking about a once a year event, this post has nothing to do with that.

Btw, I like how you called everybody out plus 10 games in the other thread. Well done sir!
Jason

 

[justinb386]

If there is a 3000 limit and they were over, it should be automatic disqual. These teams know EXACTLY what their total handicap is. Doesnt matter if they were beat by other teams or not, if they were over, they cheated, period.

Now whether this is the whole complete story is another thing. Just commenting on whats been presented.
Jason

That is a very good point. I assume that the team probably knew at Registration, that they did not quality to compete in the Gold bracket, or whatever it is called (Gold bracket of the BCA National Team Championships?). I think that it should be considered cheating if the team captain knew what the teams total Fargo rating was, and that they did not quality for the Gold bracket. There was an error in one of the players Fargo rating, and they did not say anything (due to the fact that the staff at Registration did not notice it), because they knew that they would have a much stronger chance in the Gold bracket. Makes sense to me. Sorry, I am just guessing as to what happened, based on what I have read on here.

 

[justinb386]

Reading this thread makes me feel little sorry for you guys. *****ing about the handicaps is taking out of the enjoyment of the game big time. While i understand the reasoning that handicaps bring more amateur players to the game i dont believe that it is the only way how to do it. In Europe you can scarcely see a handicapped tournament,basically 99% of the tournaments are open to all players,there are virtually no "pros banned" tournaments. So quite often you have an opportunity to play pro-level player even at rather small regional tournament which is great opportunity to see how the game is played on higher level. You learn faster that way,trust me :smile:

I agree that playing stronger players (under pressure, and not just for fun) is the best way to improve your game.

Having a handicapped system does get better turn outs to tournaments though, and if BCA were not doing things the way that they are, then I do not think that the league would be nearly as successful as it is. In fact, it might be completely dead.

I see what you are saying though, and I agree with you.

It is nice to hear that pool is going strong in Europe.

I would love to live over there.

 

[justinb386]

If these people wanted to play pros they would, this is about a handicapped tournament where teams can compete against similar play. There is nothing hard to understand, but for some reason, many of you just dont get it.
Jason

Yeah, I would much rather compete against a player that is around my same skill level, then to have to give a spot to a weaker player, or take a spot from a stronger player. I like that the BCA is trying their best to put similar level players in the same brackets with each other, and not make them compete against stronger players (playing even). They are trying their best to give all players a fair chance to get far into a tournament, and make some prize money.

It sounds like the team in question (about cheating) was on a very even playing field, with all of the teams they competed against. They were just a hair over in the max Fargo rate, and got very lucky that there was an error in one of their players Fargo rating. They may, or may not have known about the error at registration. BCA should have known though, and seen the error during registration, so I think the fault should be, in part, on BCA (the registration staff). If the team captain also knew about the error, then the fault would be on him too (but maybe not the entire team). The team Captain would have known though, right? I do not know.

 

[Justin Bergman]

Yeah I know it's complety different but just trying to make a point. CSI/BCA pool league are a lot smarter than me but I know a lot of people from my area that didn't come this year because of Fargo. St. Louis used to have like 10 teams always that come sometimes more I think... I remember like around 80-100 people I knew from St. Louis came out every year to play or watch. This year I seen literally one guy I knew named Paul but I know he was on a team with two other guys I know but that was the only team.

My point is and I know that every sport has handicaps to a certain extent but pool seems to be way way obsessed with it.... Like in pool everyone even good players will say oh I haven't been playing or he plays better than me I should be a 6 instead of a 7.... In almost every other game/sport they all brag how much better than they really are... Every poker player I know thinkers Phil Ivey, they all win money they never lose... In Golf you can make a living by giving lessons, being a club pro, by gambling, probably make a good living playing tournaments if you're a low level pro or semi pro.... In pool especially where I live you're better off being an APA 5 under over.... You can match up gamble with way more people, get better games, play in a tournament every day of the week, have a chance to win $15K in Vegas at APA playing guys way under your speed...

I remember one year I was 15/16 got 2nd in a tournament paid like around $10,200 and Alex Pagulayan won the pro event and he got $8,000... Also I made a few thousand playing people that week... So I made more as an amateur than the pro that week... So why would anyone want to get better at pool or say they are better? You get punished in this game.... That needs to change to make pool better.

That was my whole reason for posting that. Not to do with CSI saying that team should or shouldn't be allowed to play.... Just stating my opinion on handicaps and how I think pool could be better.

 

[justinb386]

I understand Marek's point. I know pool halls that used to have 50-60 players every Sunday for an open race to 7 & they switched to handicapped and everyone complained to the point it wasn't even fun & on top of that it lost a lot of interest in watching the finals. Then the real players stopped playing be used now they lose to a 2 that doesn't even care about the game and the 6's are robbing it now. So after a month or two they were getting 20-30 players, then 15, now they quit having them. Now I think they occasionally have Friday night your mantra but won't let anyone that can run 2 balls play. If you're an APA 3 you're banned literally. They get like 6 players.

If you handicapped or just ban/punish the good players it really hurts pool in the long run. Just like the little tournament above I was talking about the good players just quit coming in. Those players are the ones that come in 5 times a week, practice, spend money, eat, etc. The 3 that *****es and complains about handicaps don't care if they come in again ever. Those same type people probably won't spend a dollar eating or drinking or probably won't tip the waitress a dollar but pool halls around where I live cater to people like that it's amazing.

Nice post. I see that the Race to 7 open tournament (with no handicap) had a pretty strong weekly tournament, because in a short Race to 7, even some of the weaker B level players have a chance, right? In a longer race to 9 or 11, probably not though (the A level or stronger player would always have a big advantage). I think that in an open non handicapped tournament, the shorter the race, the stronger the turn out (within reason). The stronger players (like A level, or better) would probably not want the race to be less then a race to 5 games (playing 9 ball, for example). I also think that handicapped tournaments are very boring, as a spectator (pool fan). We pool fans want to see the best players show up, and play in the tournaments. They (the good A level, or stronger players) are not going to show up though, if it is unfairly handicapped, or if there is not a decent amount of money added to the pot. Who wants to stick around a tournament (and spend money on food, and beer for example) just to watch a level 4 player in the finals? No, we pool fans want to see the strongest players in our area (or the strongest road players, from all over) competing in the finals. And if there is not a really big field of players showing up to the tournaments every week, then the bar might decide to stop adding money, and that is when the tournaments turn outs really start to die.

Sorry for going so far off topic.

 

[GideonF]

Your reading skills suck JC. I said he was a 140 at registration and adjusted to 640 at tournament time to get them at the 3015 number but thanks for your exemplary math skills.

With no disrespect intended, your original post did not make this clear at all. When everyone "misreads" your post such that they think the team was "well over" the 3000 limit because of a 500 point Fargo error as meaning they were close to 3000 as registered and then around 3500 at match time then you have to accept that maybe you didn't write it as clearly as you intended.

As an aside, I don't think 15 points over 3000 is "well over" the limit. I think people's reaction to your post might have been different if you made it clear that the team was only just over the limit, not way over. If the rules were not complied with, that is one thing, but I think the magnitude of the issue is important.

 

[PoppaSaun]

When I used to play foosball, we would have doubles tourneys where we would divide the players into two groups based on skill level and pair a higher level person with a lower level person.

I was one of several people who were in the middle, and since I wouldn't cry and moan about it, I would usually be assigned to the 'high' skill division, which meant that I was on one of the worst teams and would generally go 2-and-out.

On the rare occasion that I would get put in the lower skill side, a bunch of whiny twattles would complain all tourney that I should have been in the A-player side.

Finally I just told all of the tourney directors that no matter who showed up I was playing as an A player, then the only person who could complain would be the person who drew me as a partner. And if they complained, I'd just put in about 20% effort and lose out really quickly.

Pussificationly entitled people bore me to no end, crying about how they were cheated by a team that was statistically in the margin of error of an imperfect (tho good) handicapping system. Cheated by a team that only finished two places higher than they did, cheated by a mistake that the directors made. Cheated by a team that didn't even win the tourney. Waaaaahhhhhhhhhh!