Anniversary Rails

[mrpoopytime]

My Brunswick Anniversary table could use some new cushions. As I understand it, modern cushions have a different profile than what was originally on this table. I know one option is to have someone redo the sub rails to accept modern cushions but that's out of my budget at the moment. If I were to replace the cushions without any other modifications, how is that going to affect the way the table plays and what cushions are recommended? Thanks!

 

[rexus31]

My Brunswick Anniversary table could use some new cushions. As I understand it, modern cushions have a different profile than what was originally on this table. I know one option is to have someone redo the sub rails to accept modern cushions but that's out of my budget at the moment. If I were to replace the cushions without any other modifications, how is that going to affect the way the table plays and what cushions are recommended? Thanks!

The playing surface will be 1/4" shorter all the way around and will no longer be 50" x 100" (assuming your table is 9'). The nose height of the cushion will not be at the proper height causing the rails to play slow and not bank properly.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

The nose height of the cushion will not be at the proper height causing the rails to play slow and not bank properly.

You are correct, the new cushions are the lil bit bigger and change the ratio a small amount. My opinion: All tables diamond system is a bit off from one another anyways. Anyone who could tell it was off that tiny amount can adjust their game(gotta do it on every different table) and play their game.

Wondering what you think that measurement is and some sort of explanation of why you think the table will play slow and bank improperly. Let hear some fact based answers.

Just gonna put this here: I have mounted many many set of cushions on Anniversary, Centennial and GC 1, 2 and early 3's and the craziest thing in the world keeps happening: the nose height is correct. No ball hopping or biting under the rail. Never had someone call me telling me their table plays bad. 70 something GC's, 21 Anniversary's and 5 Centennial's in the last 7 years.

While talking with my clients all of this rail stuff is just a part of my sales routine, I let the customer have all the info and let them decide what they want. I have had about 6 sets of rails converted for the ones who want them as close to perfect as possible, THANKS JACK Z.!

So to answer the OP with my opinion: as long as you have someone who knows what they are doin: go for the new Brunswick SuperSpeed Cushions, you will be just fine.

TFT

 

[rexus31]

You are correct, the new cushions are the lil bit bigger and change the ratio a small amount. My opinion: All tables diamond system is a bit off from one another anyways. Anyone who could tell it was off that tiny amount can adjust their game(gotta do it on every different table) and play their game.

Wondering what you think that measurement is and some sort of explanation of why you think the table will play slow and bank improperly. Let hear some fact based answers.

Just gonna put this here: I have mounted many many set of cushions on Anniversary, Centennial and GC 1, 2 and early 3's and the craziest thing in the world keeps happening: the nose height is correct. No ball hopping or biting under the rail. Never had someone call me telling me their table plays bad. 70 something GC's, 21 Anniversary's and 5 Centennial's in the last 7 years.

While talking with my clients all of this rail stuff is just a part of my sales routine, I let the customer have all the info and let them decide what they want. I have had about 6 sets of rails converted for the ones who want them as close to perfect as possible, THANKS JACK Z.!

So to answer the OP with my opinion: as long as you have someone who knows what they are doin: go for the new Brunswick SuperSpeed Cushions, you will be just fine.

TFT

Are you advising they mount the new rubber without modifying the subrail angle to accept today's different sized rubber? My comment about slow speed and poor banking was based on the OP wanting to install new rubber without subrail work. This is not advisable if optimal play is desired.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Are you advising they mount the new rubber without modifying the subrail angle to accept today's different sized rubber? My comment about slow speed and poor banking was based on the OP wanting to install new rubber without subrail work. This is not advisable if optimal play is desired.

I clearly stated that.

The back of the cushion of the Monarch Superspeed and the Brunswick Superspeed are the same. The angle of the subrail is the same.

The main difference in the old Superspeed Cushions and Modern is the top of the subrail to the nose of the cushion is bigger. The nose height of the cushion is the same.

The only thing doing a subrail mod is actually reducing the subrail to make the 50" x 100" by the 1/8" per rail and 1/32" for the cloth.

I asked you for the correct nose height measurement= no answer.

Now I am going to ask you this: Do you know what the degree of the angle of bevel for the face of the subrail ??

This has been a beaten dead issue that IMO is mostly bull$hit. I have done all the measurements and have my own opinion that I have developed from talking with all of the key players who perform these subrail mods and my experience with the tables I mentioned in my last post.

TFT

 

[rexus31]

I clearly stated that.

The back of the cushion of the Monarch Superspeed and the Brunswick Superspeed are the same. The angle of the subrail is the same.

The main difference in the old Superspeed Cushions and Modern is the top of the subrail to the nose of the cushion is bigger. The nose height of the cushion is the same.

The only thing doing a subrail mod is actually reducing the subrail to make the 50" x 100" by the 1/8" per rail and 1/32" for the cloth.

I asked you for the correct nose height measurement= no answer.

Now I am going to ask you this: Do you know what the degree of the angle of bevel for the face of the subrail ??

This has been a beaten dead issue that IMO is mostly bull$hit. I have done all the measurements and have my own opinion that I have developed from talking with all of the key players who perform these subrail mods and my experience with the tables I mentioned in my last post.

TFT

Based on what I've read, 1 7/16" is the proper height; subrail angle, 23*.

Legitimate question: If calibrating the subrail for modern rubber only affects dimensions and has nothing to do with playability, why do mechanics perform the task?

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Based on what I've read, 1 7/16" is the proper height; subrail angle, 23*.

Legitimate question: If calibrating the subrail for modern rubber only affects dimensions and has nothing to do with playability, why do mechanics perform the task?

As long as their customers are happy with how the rails play = ALL GOOD. At the end of the day we are talking about splitting a degree, one way or the other.

I trust Brunswick, Diamond and Rasson to know what works best. There are about 5 independent mechanics I would trust to cut into a set of Anniversary rails for me. Jack Z does excellent work and when I need it, thats who I call.

TFT

 

[rexus31]

There are about 5 independent mechanics I would trust to cut into a set of Anniversary rails for me.

TFT

Is this a service you do not perform?

 

[bradsh98]

The angles used for a Monarch Superspeed and a modern day Superspeed are absolutely NOT the same.

To maintain a 50x100" playing surface, there are some who use K66 cushions, mounted directly to the unmodified sub-rail. However, If you mount it at the top of the sub-rail, the nose height will be 1 1/2" high. That said, the folks who do it, drop the cushion 1/16" lower, when they mount it. This leaves an unsightly ridge along the top of the rail. Some of these same folks will belt sand that ridge away (not advised.. Any of this...)

You can mount modern day K55 cushions to an unmodified sub-rail, in the standard mounting location, and the nose height will be about 1 13/32".

The basic nose height dimension that is commonly referenced is 1 7/16". However, the common height that is used by most of those of us who actually modify the rails is 1 29/64".

If you use a standard K55 cushion, the table will bank a bit fast, and slightly short.

See attached photos, for reference.

This information is completely factual, and based on MY OWN FIRSTHAND knowledge, from trial and error. This information has also been cross-referenced with some of the few other folks who also perform this service.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Great post Bradshaw!

Getting into 64th's is crazy tolerances! Again, I have mounted many many sets on the older tables and have gotten no complaints. Most Pool halls around the country that have Anny's or Centennials/ Older GC 1&2 have never been modded.

Could you possibly show us some examples of balls banking fast or short? Just would like to know the amount they play off. a ball? a diamond or some sort of increment of either?

I am going to stick to my original statement to the OP, he does not want to spend the money on the subrail mod and I think his table will keep him HAPPY. If he is unhappy, down the road he could hire someone to rebuild the rails for him. Jack Z does a hell of a job. Just my $0.02! Good luck MRPOOPYTIME.

TFT


TFT

 

[bradsh98]

Great post Bradshaw!

Getting into 64th's is crazy tolerances! Again, I have mounted many many sets on the older tables and have gotten no complaints. Most Pool halls around the country that have Anny's or Centennials/ Older GC 1&2 have never been modded.

Could you possibly show us some examples of balls banking fast or short? Just would like to know the amount they play off. a ball? a diamond or some sort of increment of either?

I am going to stick to my original statement to the OP, he does not want to spend the money on the subrail mod and I think his table will keep him HAPPY. If he is unhappy, down the road he could hire someone to rebuild the rails for him. Jack Z does a hell of a job. Just my $0.02! Good luck MRPOOPYTIME.

TFT


TFT

Based on my own experience:

When doing the rail test (shooting the ball straight up and down the table), a properly modified Gold Crown/Anniversary should see the cue ball just contact the cushion, on the 5th table length (using Simonis 860HR).

Using a modern day Superspeed, on an unmodified sub-rail, the cue ball will just contact (or fall just short of) the cushion on the 6th table length.

Also, if you someone were to decide to use K66 cushions, and mount them in the standard location on the sub-rail (1 1/2" nose height), it would be a struggle to get 4 table lengths. However, mounting the K66 cushion low on the sub-rail (1 7/16" nose height), you could expect to see 4.5-5 table lengths, depending on the actual nose height that is achieved (as it would be difficult to maintain a tight tolerance). I have experimented with a number of these tables, as Al Conte used to use K66 cushions on his Gold Crown I's. I have seen a number of these tables, as I am within his former service area.

 

[mrpoopytime]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses! It's been enlightening.

I took some imprecise measurements of my table and it looks like the cushion nose is sitting at about 1.45 inchs and shooting from the head spot through the foot spot, I'm getting a little over 3 table lengths (on a 9 foot table).

I also spoke with the mechanic who set up my table. He said that replacing the cushions without any modifications will make the play field a little larger but the nose height will be correct. Given the variation in the "correct" nose height, I think I need to have another chat with him about the rubber profile and the height he'd be mounting them at.

 

[rexus31]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses! It's been enlightening.

I took some imprecise measurements of my table and it looks like the cushion nose is sitting at about 1.45 inchs and shooting from the head spot through the foot spot, I'm getting a little over 3 table lengths (on a 9 foot table).

I also spoke with the mechanic who set up my table. He said that replacing the cushions without any modifications will make the play field a little larger but the nose height will be correct. Given the variation in the "correct" nose height, I think I need to have another chat with him about the rubber profile and the height he'd be mounting them at.

Who is the mechanic you are using? Where are you located?

 

[pocket]

As long as their customers are happy with how the rails play = ALL GOOD. At the end of the day we are talking about splitting a degree, one way or the other.

I trust Brunswick, Diamond and Rasson to know what works best. There are about 5 independent mechanics I would trust to cut into a set of Anniversary rails for me. Jack Z does excellent work and when I need it, thats who I call.

TFT

I'm no mechanic, but I've played on tables (owned one too) where the rails were slapped on unmodified sub rails and the difference is quite noticeable, and I'm a very low-level player. I can only imagine how a higher level player would feel playing on a table like that.

Frankly, I'm surprised to hear Trent espouse this approach. I've never heard another mechanic say anything similar (save for the dime a dozen installers that likely have never heard any different).

This new learning amazes me Sir Bedevere. Explain to me again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

 

[mrpoopytime]

Who is the mechanic you are using? Where are you located?

Clayton Trask's crew from Level Best Billiards in Georgia set up my table. And yes, I've had a brief chat with Mark Gregory about the rails. If I recall correctly, Clayton was one of the recommended installers by Mark.

 

[rexus31]

IMO, I would hold off on having the work done until you have the funds to have the subrail work done. What are they quoting you? What rubber are you going with? Are you having the pockets tightened? I’m very pleased with the Diamond Black rubber on my Gold Crown 1. I paid $1,500 to have the table setup, new 860HR, subrails extended and calibrated and new Diamond Black rubber.

 

[mrpoopytime]

IMO, I would hold off on having the work done until you have the funds to have the subrail work done. What are they quoting you? What rubber are you going with? Are you having the pockets tightened? I’m very pleased with the Diamond Black rubber on my Gold Crown 1. I paid $1,500 to have the table setup, new 860HR, subrails extended and calibrated and new Diamond Black rubber.

The rough estimate I was given was $500-600. We hadn't discussed the rubber, but I did mention I'd like the pockets tightened.

I paid $575 for my table setup and new 860HR. So that's about another $1000 for the rail work, which isn't as expensive as I thought it would be.

I suppose I should get some more quotes. Who do you guys trust to do this work and what's their contact info?

 

[rexus31]

The rough estimate I was given was $500-600. We hadn't discussed the rubber, but I did mention I'd like the pockets tightened.

I paid $575 for my table setup and new 860HR. So that's about another $1000 for the rail work, which isn't as expensive as I thought it would be.

I suppose I should get some more quotes. Who do you guys trust to do this work and what's their contact info?

The rail work is worth it in the long run as that's the heart of the table, IMO. I do not have any referrals in your next of the woods. Have a look at the MEchanic's Directory.

 

[bradsh98]

The rough estimate I was given was $500-600. We hadn't discussed the rubber, but I did mention I'd like the pockets tightened.

I paid $575 for my table setup and new 860HR. So that's about another $1000 for the rail work, which isn't as expensive as I thought it would be.

I suppose I should get some more quotes. Who do you guys trust to do this work and what's their contact info?

If you're that close to Mark Gregory, there is no need to find anyone else. Mark's pricing may be slightly higher than some others, but your rails will be perfect.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

I'm no mechanic, but I've played on tables (owned one too) where the rails were slapped on unmodified sub rails and the difference is quite noticeable, and I'm a very low-level player. I can only imagine how a higher level player would feel playing on a table like that.

Frankly, I'm surprised to hear Trent espouse this approach. I've never heard another mechanic say anything similar (save for the dime a dozen installers that likely have never heard any different).

1. Let's heart some specifics on what plays so bad? Saying that with no facts means very little. Especially since you said you are a low level player. Please also include the mechanics name that performed the work on the tables your are speaking of. I know how my rails play and installing the cushions properly/ doing the facing work is very very important.

2. Why would it surprise you that I would do what a customer asks me to or better yet: Pays me to? Like the OP (who is now rethinking this and thats great). I give customers options and they choose. I am not going to turn away a sale because a client does not want to spend the extra money. I also am not a firm believer in the amount of QUANTIFIABLE difference from my experience with using the modern cushions as a direct replacement<<<<---- what Brunswick will tell you when you call and ask what cushions to put on an Anniversary or Centennial or older GC.

3. Unless a customer PAYS me to do so, I do not like altering the Anniversary or Centennial restorations because I want them as close to all original as possible. Yup and as long as they still work properly: i even prefer the figure 8 nut plates on the bottoms of the rails.


As for the OP getting the railwork done, I am a bit confused why he is asking for other peoples info is he is that close to MG?? Should be a no brainer, even if it was more money. But, if he wants other peoples info, this is who I suggest: Jack Zimmerman aka BilliardMechanix (812) 756-2899.

Good luck to the OP!

TFT

p.s. I am not a firm believer that there are many people on the planet that 1 extra rail back and forth would make a difference to. Not to mention I have ever seen a new GC6 or Diamond do 5-6 rails back an forth lengthwise.