Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?

[CJ Wiley]

I think CJ’s strength is using a pool cue.

I think your strength is using a calculator, protractor, and a compass.

Nobody, besides you, brings all those things to the pool room.

Learn to play and you won’t need to bring them anymore.

I'm as familiar with Geometry and Physics on a pool table as anyone, however, this is about Perception. From the vantage point of the CUE BALL you can't see the center of the pocket from the OBJECT BALL'S perception. This would not matter if the game was played by simply shooting the object ball in the pocket.

Maybe when they play pool on a video game they don't use the cueball, however, in the actual games of Pocket Billiards you can't stand behind the object ball, you MUST stand, form your stance and shoot BEHIND the cueball, on the SHOT LINE of the object ball.

Again, nobody on earth ever has been or ever will be able to see the middle of the pocket from the object ball's perception shooting pool.

This is why I told the story of Johnny Archer telling me why he sometimes goes over on the object ball/pocket line and looks because it gives him a DIFFERENT perspective......and does not look at a "contact point" like I thought he might be doing.....it wasn't!! This is useful information for those with eyes that can see and ears that can hear the keys that unlock the door to pool's secrets.

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

From the vantage point of the CUE BALL you can't see the center of the pocket from the OBJECT BALL'S perception.

So you're saying the OB's target in the pocket can only be seen by looking directly along the OB-to-pocket line? I take it that means you don't think it's midway between the points like I think, since that's visible (and obvious) from everywhere.

Can you describe where the OB target is in the shot I diagrammed above (Post #315)?

pj
chgo

 

[CJ Wiley]

Like I said from the beginning with the Spot Shot example, your perspective from the cue ball to the center of the pocket is Not the same as the perspective (of the center pocket) of the object ball. This is why some players will walk over and look at the shot from the perspective of the object ball, if the two perspectives were the same they would never have a legitimate reason to do that. I only do if there's an another ball potentially in the way that makes it necessary to target one side of the pocket or the other.

In your diagram you can put the cue ball at either of the opposite corner pockets and see immediately that you can't see the center of the pocket from the object ball's perspective.......and on thinner cut shots it's not possible to see any "contact points" either, and that's another issue players have, AIMING - it's too challenging to describe the Aiming element of pocket billiards without visual/video assistance. I'll work on that one asap!

The Game is the Teacher

 

[Patrick Johnson]

In your diagram you can put the cue ball at either of the opposite corner pockets and see immediately that you can't see the center of the pocket from the object ball's perspective.

You can see the center of the pocket's mouth from there (or anywhere else) - how is that different from your definition of "center of the pocket"?

pj
chgo

 

[The_JV]

This is why some players will walk over and look at the shot from the perspective of the object ball, if the two perspectives were the same they would never have a legitimate reason to do that.

I'm curious... If I say that I follow the above practice, will that illegitimize it as a method to play the game, because thus far I seem to have zero clue how to play. ...or will you just continue to assume I don't play the game at all, and just lying...?...lol

 

[The_JV]

Here's that shot aimed at the "center of mouth" target. You seem to be saying that aiming it closer to the far pocket point gives equal margins for error on both sides. I think my target does a better job of that.

If you had described the OB being within a few inches of the long rail, I might agree that's an exception to the "center of mouth" rule (because of the "mirroring" effect of hitting the long rail just before the pocket at that shallow angle). But that's an exception, not a rule (and it's "cheated" in the opposite direction of your suggestion - toward the long rail, not away from it).

As far as which method is better for aiming..., well that's personal perference. I can say that on some tougher tables even breezing past the long rail point results in a rattled ball. 12" or a couple... My description wasn't meant to be taken literally. The point was that shifting the OB to extreme angles alters the target zone off center measured pocket. Also consider the potential CB to OB cut induced spin when slicing in those extreme angles toward the pocket. That allows for even more adjustment away from center measured, as the OB will spin in off the horn.

What I do in these situations is aim for the long rail point and use either inside spin (not twist..lol) to produce CB squirt to over cut it, or outside spin (not reverse twist..?...lol) to handle the over cut with throw.

 

[boogieman]

"on a string" = tight control
"make it float"...? = play with stun and light spin to move laterally..? Use extensively in 14.1 and snooker
"Master shot" = default CB hit when other variables do not require something different.
"distinct advantage because the longer I played a match the better it got" = growing accustomed to table conditions and nothing to do with aiming system.
"twist" = a fictional unit of rotation, that equates to less then 1 full rotation. <<I'd hazard that this is nearly as impossible on anything but the shortest distances between CB and OB.
"target zone" = the area of the pocket that allows an equal margin of error on a miss in either direction

Figured the thread would benefit from a decoder ring of sorts...lol

Drink your Ovaltine JV.

 

[lfigueroa]

OK, I should have said "impossible to hit the cue ball with a meaningful amount of upward angle, even with the butt on the cloth." I'd be happy to hear what usefulness you think it has.

Maybe you could provide a link to a video of one of those top-level players doing it - or even just describe how it's done?

pj
chgo

I'll get right on that for you.

Lou Figueroa

 

[boogieman]

You can see the center of the pocket's mouth from there (or anywhere else) - how is that different from your definition of "center of the pocket"?

pj
chgo

I don't think he's saying you can't see the pocket mouth center, he's saying you can't see it from the OB perspective when at the cue ball, except on a straight in shot. There are two perspectives in play. You need to know how to make them sync for a lack of a better term if you want to make the ball. If you make balls, you're doing this whether you know it or not. It's especially obvious when you have a blocker or something. You surely go and make sure the path from the OB to the pocket is available, or there is a need to carom, etc when a blocker is in play?

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying, I'm no expert or anything, so it's entirely possible.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There are two perspectives in play. You need to know how to make them sync for a lack of a better term if you want to make the ball.

I’ve made balls, believe it or not (several even today), and pretty sure I never synced any perspectives. Maybe that’s just a language difference, like the one CJ and I have - I speak technical; he speaks inspirational. They both have their place and value - I think it’s good to know which is which.

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

I’ve made balls, believe it or not (several even today), and pretty sure I never synced any perspectives. Maybe that’s just a language difference, like the one CJ and I have - I speak technical; he speaks inspirational. They both have their place and value - I think it’s good to know which is which.

pj
chgo

Out of curiosity, do you use an aiming system? If so it (and your muscle memory) might be accounting for what we're talking about. If you play by feel, you've probably already programmed it to the point that it works. I find it tough to talk about a lot of this stuff because once you're dialed in, a lot of aiming talk doesn't translate. Most systems (even HAMB) eventually make aiming second nature and kind of below the conscious thought process.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Out of curiosity, do you use an aiming system?

Not a store-bought one. My personal “system” is to just visualize the OB contact point (since that’s easy for me) and estimate how to hit it with the CB by practiced “feel”. I almost never sight the OB-to-pocket line from behind the OB, but I “see” that line from the CB’s position.

pj
chgo

 

[Flowerbomb]

The problem with using "center ball" is if you don't make the shot, or hit the part of the pocket desired you won't get the necessary feedback to make adjustments to calibrate your future shots.

This makes the player play a guessing game, which will break down when competing against a player that KNOWS why their shot reacted a certain way.

Giving handicaps to "center ball players," as a result of them being unaware of this knowledge is almost unfair. Just like playing golf, you won't see a professional trying to hit a full shot straight. They will move the ball off the straight line so they can align to one side of the green (or fairway) and force it into the center zone......if the ball curves too much it goes into the far side of the target area.

I would love to see all my opponents using center ball, they would (unknowingly) be at a disadvantage. If you're trapped at a level that you can't seem to improve I'd highly recommend learning how to use spin and deflection to help your shotmaking, not hurt yourself by using a "low deflection shaft".

The Game is the Teacher

So, wait...
Should I be hitting the center of the cue ball, or no?

I'm no pro. I just started really getting into Pool within like the last year or so. I grasp the basic fundamentals, but I'm far from an expert, like most members on here seem to be.

 

[straightline]

So, wait...
Should I be hitting the center of the cue ball, or no?

I'm no pro. I just started really getting into Pool within like the last year or so. I grasp the basic fundamentals, but I'm far from an expert, like most members on here seem to be.

CJ is citing common if not exactly identical practice among winning players. It's all about percentages and consistency. It's a very advanced and refined application of pool theory and skill. Learn center ball thoroughly. Stick with your fundamentals. Perfect them. Competitive applications will make more sense when you're ready for them.

 

[Flowerbomb]

CJ is citing common if not exactly identical practice among winning players. It's all about percentages and consistency. It's a very advanced and refined application of pool theory and skill. Learn center ball thoroughly. Stick with your fundamentals. Perfect them. Competitive applications will make more sense when you're ready for them.

Alright, thank you for this.

 

[straightline]

And by all means practice center ball.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Should I be hitting the center of the cue ball, or no?

Yes - this "avoid the center" stuff is illogical. CJ deserves our respect as a true former champion, but we should still test his ideas like any others.

pj
chgo

 

[Flowerbomb]

And by all means practice center ball.

Yes - this "avoid the center" stuff is illogical. CJ deserves our respect as a true former champion, but we should still test his ideas like any others.

pj
chgo

Ok, thanks! I try englishes and topspin and I'm pretty good with my bottom. But yeah, I still shoot most of my shots in the center to avoid miscueing and when I'm not sure which english I should use

 

[straightline]

Ball control is like driving a car though it can become like flying a helicopter. If you stray too far too soon you will have your hands full; guaranteed. Centerball is the best anchor. It is the "centerpiece" of pool knowledge; guaranteed.

 

[The_JV]

I almost never sight the OB-to-pocket line from behind the OB, but I “see” that line from the CB’s position.

I generally do as well... see that line as you say. However standard snooker practice (my roots) has the shooter locating that line from behind the OB and then sighting the CB to generate that OB path. The "ghost ball" method is the closest comparison. I still do this when the desired pocket is blind. ...and always do it regardless of the shot difficulty when I'm attempting to get myself into and maintain the "zone". The OB sighting becomes apart of the PSR, and use it to stay in rhythm (if you will).