How do you ‘unlearn’ bad habits?

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, Fran. Sorry to hijack the thread a little, but as you describe it, it's not chicken-wing; it's steering. But in my case, it was not caused by trusting my setup, or anxiety. I simply had no way of ensuring my elbow doesn't come out the way my stance was. I tried and tried to envision my forearm coming straight in my foreswing but no matter how much I concentrated on it, it would come out about 1.5 - 2".

The only way I reduced it, and seem to have eliminated it, was to make a MUCH straighter line between my bridge hand, my left shoulder, my head, and my grip shoulder, elbow, and hand. Previous iterations of my stance had my shoulders more square to the shot than the aforementioned pro Shane (I did a side-by-side comparison using a video frame of my own stance and Shane's and noticed the difference in shoulder alignment).

The only problem I have now is with my neck, as I had mentioned, I broke my neck in 2010, and getting my face square to the shot while my shoulders are in line with the shot is not easy for me, and after 30-45 minutes becomes painful (the C5/C6 disk starts to encroach on the nerve going to my left arm - which is why, when I fractured my C4 vertebra, my left shoulder, arm, and hand were paralyzed, and didn't fully recover for three months while my C5/C6 disc fully resorbed).

So I am continuing to work through adjusting aiming with sometimes less-than-optimal head position. It's an ongoing process, honing my foot placement (it's a little more open than Wilson's "orthodox" stance) yet still having shoulders lined up such that I deliver the stroke without my elbow going right or dropping. I notice it's much straighter when I really focus on keeping my elbow high, and not dropping it - AT ALL.

EDIT: (Sorry, this is mostly a repeat of what I said in post #13. :rolleyes:)
I wish you could post a video of yourself playing from different angles because there are a few inconsistencies in what you're describing. For example: You say your arm moves off-line during the stroke, but at address, your elbow is not off-line. Your stance may be a little off but most amateur players stances are a little off. If it was significantly off, your elbow would not be in a good position at address. I doubt that what's causing this is your stance. That's why I wish you could post some videos. I'm sure we'd be able to help you figure out what's really going on and why your arm is moving off-line during your stroke.

And BTW, I don't think this is a hijack. It's very much in line with what the OP posted. Same subject matter.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’ve been playing pool for over 40 years without ever being shown how to play & as a result I’ve acquired a number of bad habits, the worst of which is a ‘chicken wing’ where my elbow moves out to the side as I shoot resulting in the cue not moving in a straight line. Over the last year I’ve been doing drills to correct this but I still do it whenever I’m under pressure or simply not concentrating. I have two questions, firstly are there any drills to specifically address this problem & secondly, how can I stop myself from reverting to old habits when playing a match?
So the OP is new. It’s been 2 weeks since he visited and checked on what he started. Our posts are vapor bound.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Not vapor bound
People like me read the replies and learn
Yours and the other responders like Fran who offer sound advice
Your words are not wasted
😃👍
Exacty. There are 679 views of this thread as of now. Even if there are 113 people who each go back to the thread 6 times, that's still a lot.
 

dquarasr

Registered
I wish you could post a video of yourself playing from different angles because there are a few inconsistencies in what you're describing. For example: You say your arm moves off-line during the stroke, but at address, your elbow is not off-line. Your stance may be a little off but most amateur players stances are a little off. If it was significantly off, your elbow would not be in a good position at address. I doubt that what's causing this is your stance. That's why I wish you could post some videos. I'm sure we'd be able to help you figure out what's really going on and why your arm is moving off-line during your stroke.

And BTW, I don't think this is a hijack. It's very much in line with what the OP posted. Same subject matter.
Thanks, Fran. Here are two shots from head-on (hope I did this correctly; I'm new to youtube, just created a channel). In the first, I hit the CB slightly left of intended impact point, imparting unwanted left spin. The first shot reminded me to relax my forearm and grip; the second one went pretty darned straight, but I still see a *very* slight elbow out at the end of the stroke. Lemme know if you agree.

I like to think that since I posted above, I have (mostly) corrected my "steering" elbow coming out to my right. Please let me know what you think. I'm still very much a work in progress. Advise if you think it will be worth taking a video in profile (it's hard to set up in my room, though.)

Looking forward to informed feedback!

 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks, Fran. Here are two shots from head-on (hope I did this correctly; I'm new to youtube, just created a channel). In the first, I hit the CB slightly left of intended impact point, imparting unwanted left spin. The first shot reminded me to relax my forearm and grip; the second one went pretty darned straight, but I still see a *very* slight elbow out at the end of the stroke. Lemme know if you agree.

I like to think that since I posted above, I have (mostly) corrected my "steering" elbow coming out to my right. Please let me know what you think. I'm still very much a work in progress. Advise if you think it will be worth taking a video in profile (it's hard to set up in my room, though.)

Looking forward to informed feedback!

Thanks for doing that. Nothing is jumping out at me from the frontal view. I have a few ideas, but there's no way of knowing if I'm right without seeing another angle. I know you said it's not easy, but maybe you can find some way of recording a side view?
 

dquarasr

Registered
Thanks for doing that. Nothing is jumping out at me from the frontal view. I have a few ideas, but there's no way of knowing if I'm right without seeing another angle. I know you said it's not easy, but maybe you can find some way of recording a side view?
Turns out I had more than enough room to take a profile shot. Here it is. Nothing seems glaringly wrong to me, except viewing myself in profile (oh, my, look at the schnozz on that guy!! And where did my hair go?)

Since my original post on 3/26 andfollow up on 3/29, I've been working on my stance and stroke. I *think* I have mostly corrected steering with my elbow. I have noticed that keeping my forearm and grip *very* loose is so, so important. As soon as I notice I'm not super-relaxed, I put some unwanted spin on the CB, and even though I might pocket the OB (most often not, though), I know I'm not really hitting the CB at the intended impact point.

Again, I know it's way too early to declare victory over this particular problem, but this is one of the first times since I've gotten serious that I've been able to replicate good results over many days; previously, seeming "Aha!" moments turned into frustration when I could not replicate the "success" the next session (the next day or even 1/2 hour later).

Anyways, here is the latest side view. Obviously it's not a video in profile of the shot I posted earlier, but it's the same setup: shoot spot-to-spot and have the CB come back to the tip.

EDIT: This was one of many successful attempts, not just a one-off of a shot I succeeded having the CB run over the opposite spot and come back to the cue tip.

 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Turns out I had more than enough room to take a profile shot. Here it is. Nothing seems glaringly wrong to me, except viewing myself in profile (oh, my, look at the schnozz on that guy!! And where did my hair go?)

Since my original post on 3/26 andfollow up on 3/29, I've been working on my stance and stroke. I *think* I have mostly corrected steering with my elbow. I have noticed that keeping my forearm and grip *very* loose is so, so important. As soon as I notice I'm not super-relaxed, I put some unwanted spin on the CB, and even though I might pocket the OB (most often not, though), I know I'm not really hitting the CB at the intended impact point.

Again, I know it's way too early to declare victory over this particular problem, but this is one of the first times since I've gotten serious that I've been able to replicate good results over many days; previously, seeming "Aha!" moments turned into frustration when I could not replicate the "success" the next session (the next day or even 1/2 hour later).

Anyways, here is the latest side view. Obviously it's not a video in profile of the shot I posted earlier, but it's the same setup: shoot spot-to-spot and have the CB come back to the tip.

EDIT: This was one of many successful attempts, not just a one-off of a shot I succeeded having the CB run over the opposite spot and come back to the cue tip.

LOL, kinda the wrong profile. The other side of you would have been more informative, but overall, I'd say you look good at the table. It looks like your hard work is paying off. Great job!
 

dquarasr

Registered
LOL, kinda the wrong profile. The other side of you would have been more informative, but overall, I'd say you look good at the table. It looks like your hard work is paying off. Great job!
Duh. I’ll redo it from the other side. Dopey me. Never even thought about it.
 

dquarasr

Registered
LOL, kinda the wrong profile. The other side of you would have been more informative, but overall, I'd say you look good at the table. It looks like your hard work is paying off. Great job!
What are you looking for in the profile view? You said you had some ideas .....
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Turns out I had more than enough room to take a profile shot. Here it is. Nothing seems glaringly wrong to me, except viewing myself in profile (oh, my, look at the schnozz on that guy!! And where did my hair go?)

Since my original post on 3/26 andfollow up on 3/29, I've been working on my stance and stroke. I *think* I have mostly corrected steering with my elbow. I have noticed that keeping my forearm and grip *very* loose is so, so important. As soon as I notice I'm not super-relaxed, I put some unwanted spin on the CB, and even though I might pocket the OB (most often not, though), I know I'm not really hitting the CB at the intended impact point.

Again, I know it's way too early to declare victory over this particular problem, but this is one of the first times since I've gotten serious that I've been able to replicate good results over many days; previously, seeming "Aha!" moments turned into frustration when I could not replicate the "success" the next session (the next day or even 1/2 hour later).

Anyways, here is the latest side view. Obviously it's not a video in profile of the shot I posted earlier, but it's the same setup: shoot spot-to-spot and have the CB come back to the tip.

EDIT: This was one of many successful attempts, not just a one-off of a shot I succeeded having the CB run over the opposite spot and come back to the cue tip.

In baseball we called it stepping in the bucket. I have a tendency to keep too much weight on my feet which leads to me falling back from the shot when nervous. Barry Stark address that in video 96 at the 3:45 mark. Barry Stark lessons. Just a little weight on the bridge hand stabilized me better.
Edit:
Looks like the link takes to the whole list of videos. Was trying for Number 96 at the 3:45 mark.
 
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What are you looking for in the profile view? You said you had some ideas .....
Things like the distance between your hip and torso and the cue. How much your body is turned towards the cue. How you're leaning. What your back and front hands look like as you move the cue.
 

chefjeff

If not now...
Silver Member
Fran, thanks for your help and patience.

Sometimes that doesn't always end well for the some here.


Jeff Livingston
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In baseball we called it stepping in the bucket. I have a tendency to keep too much weight on my feet which leads to me falling back from the shot when nervous. Barry Stark address that in video 96 at the 3:45 mark. Barry Stark lessons. Just a little weight on the bridge hand stabilized me better.
I've heard this before with some snooker players, and I totally disagree about the leaning forward part. Leaning back and to the side is how pro pool players lean. Maybe it's a pool vs. snooker thing.
 

Imac007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it's a pool vs. snooker thing.
It is. A snooker table is higher, by up to 3 inches. That doesn’t seem like much but it can be significant, depending on whether you bend from the waist or the hips. The longer the shot the more you need to look along the cue instead of down on its length. Forward balance isn’t an issue unless you have both legs bent. With a straight rear leg and forward bent left and hinged at the hips, reaching out in front with the bridge hand shifts some weight forward, onto the arm and/or hand. Player height becomes an issue. When Alex P bends at the waist he is looking down the length of the cue. Very tall players would have trouble getting down and having a straight vertical back leg.
 

ThinSlice

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ever see Keith McCready play? Mechanics aren’t everything. Making balls is far more important. So if you can make balls standing on your head then don’t change a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ever see Keith McCready play? Mechanics aren’t everything. Making balls is far more important. So if you can make balls standing on your head then don’t change a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
I see what you mean but actually, Keith has great mechanics. His side arm stroke doesn't detract at all from his great stroke timing and stability at the table as well as his alignment. Some of the great players have unorthodox styles, but their mechanics are all in tact, or they wouldn't be successful.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
I've heard this before with some snooker players, and I totally disagree about the leaning forward part. Leaning back and to the side is how pro pool players lean. Maybe it's a pool vs. snooker thing.
For me it is not about leaning forward it’s about an aggressive attitude. Barry addressing it as the angle of the rear leg and calls for the weight going forward a little bit.
One of my flaws is to pop up like a cork. I don’t realize until I have done it but post flaw analysis tells me my apprehension led to a backwards inclination. My solution has me asserting an aggressive attitude with every shot. Slightest weight on my bridge hand helps stabilize my 3 point shooting platform. Slightest inclination forward with the rear leg emphasizing my aggressive attitude. Works for me.🤷
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
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